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  1. #31
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    I just wanted to add that what I describe in this thread is not a problem that I would face every day. I do get along with most of people nicely. It's just somebody sometimes (one ESTJ at the moment) and really gets me irritated. So people do not push around me or walk over me daily.

    (And now I'm wondering why I ever started this thread.)
    I'll promise that I try to be less friendly and polite because I got the feeling based on this thread that there is really no problem and it's just me whining.
    The way to make ESTJs happy is to jump through all their hoops.

  2. #32
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    I just wanted to add that what I describe in this thread is not a problem that I would face every day. I do get along with most of people nicely. It's just somebody sometimes (one ESTJ at the moment) and really gets me irritated. So people do not push around me or walk over me daily.

    (And now I'm wondering why I ever started this thread.)
    I'll promise that I try to be less friendly and polite because I got the feeling based on this thread that there is really no problem and it's just me whining.
    What exactly did they do that seemed "rude"? (I probably should have asked this earlier) Were they just not returning your friendliness back at the same level although they were still technically being civil/polite? If so, I think I'm beginning to understand what kind of problem you're having, and what's causing it.

  3. #33
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    Unfortunately, I have the same problem. It's taken me almost a year to break free of the habit of being nice to people don't deserve anything from me, whether it be neutrality or kindness (I don't believe people deserve to be treated unkindly, unless there is some extraordinary circumstance that would trigger that kind of reaction).

    I used to think that I would want to treat others as I would like to be treated, then I realized that if I were half as much of a jerk or taking advantage of people's kindness as some people have been with me, I would want a good kick in the a** to wake me up to that fact I'm not behaving or thinking in a positive manner toward someone who has done nothing to justifiably deserve that treatment.

    Sometimes, the people who say they love me the most are the ones who I treat with kindness even though they start to take advantage of my kindness. It's usually these people who I cannot remain ambivalent about either way, so taking action becomes necessary in order to maintain some semblance of peace within the group dynamics and individual friendships.

  4. #34
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    I think there is a great benefit in being able to start fresh with people, and to not bother to remember your gripes about them. If we were to sit someone in a chair and show them a picture of someone they liked and they became elated at the thought of that person, that would be great for that person, but if we showed them a picture of someone they disliked and they started to growl or become uncomfortable, it seems very unfortunate for this person. This person has invested a lot of energy into remembering attacks against them. You get a feel for their hatred and their pain, and it is unfortunate. I myself would feel some sadness for them. So much better it is, if that person can be shown a picture of someone they've not gotten along with in the past and truly see that person as simply another person they do not know. You might expect them to feel only a very mild looking forward to learning more about the person, as is expected from anyone seeing the picture of a stranger.

    The point is simply that it takes too much energy to try to remember who has harmed you and who hasn't. To see another's distaste at the sight or thought of another makes them appear vulnerable. One wonders why they feel that way. It is as though the other person actually hurt them deep down inside them, and the whole picture has a feel of resentment. One wonders how it could be that this person tried to defend themselves from someone else, when the pain they feel is their own. If I think about what innocence feels like, this feels like the loss of innocence, the breaking of purity. It stinks of bad air, as Nietzsche might say.

    But if another upsets you, what is the point of keeping it hidden? Do you believe that you would be succumbing to a vulnerability to react negatively to the situation? If you believe that showing anger is to lower yourself to their level, you already have if you so much as try to prevent yourself from expressing that vulnerability, exactly because you feel it. It is a lie to hide what you feel. Only the fearful believe they have to present a particular image of themselves and hide away their authenticity. These people feel vulnerable, but take up the matter of their protection into their own hands as though they knew how to protect themselves. Instead, they might do better to know that such a pain is their own, and from it, there is no protection. I tell you again, only a fool thinks of his self-defense, for there is no protection to be had for it.

    Therefore, relinquish your resentments and strive not for your own protection.

    If you feel slighted or pained by another, know that you are free to act as you please without injury. If your brother injures you, it is not his, but your injury. Take responsibility for it, for it is your own. If you injure your brother, it is not his, but your injury. Take responsibility for it, for it is your own. Injury is not communicable. It cannot be spread around like a contagion. Where you see it, it is your own. Take responsibility for it. If you feel it, it is yours. Take responsibility for it. Own your own pain and let you not think another put it there or that you can give it to another. Attack is an illusion, because it is not possible. There is the feeling of pain, and the absence of pain, but no attack.

    In this way, you will always know your brother's motives. Should he wish to attack you, you will know that it is only his own pain, and that it has not touched you. He has lashed out at you, but the whips never touched you. You did not feel them and forgive your brother, you felt them and forgave first yourself, which could not help but to then forgive your brother.

    And this is healing.
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    I have had this problem:
    I am nice even to those people who are not nice to me. It goes sometimes even to the point where I get verbally kicked into my face and still I am totally unable to be rude to them.

    I basically try to avoid people who are not responding to my friendliness. It's not always possible (at work for example) and that's why I would need to change this "habit" of mine.

    I do have to admit that I too have my limits and I will eventually say something when I get fed up. I can be very offensive when I get mad and then people really should watch out their actions concerning me.

    The question here is:
    Is being friendly to everybody a common NF problem, a common ENFP problem or is it just me trying to behave nicely with people?
    I'm not sure type has the greater part in this. I think it may be more about what was there or missing during critical developmental phases. I was raised in a cold, rejecting, abusive environment and I think that made me crave acceptance and approval. I have, consequently, allowed people to walk all over me most of my life. It took the love of an exceptional man to help me start laying boundaries. I don't think I would ever have begun standing up for myself without the unconditional acceptance of another human being. It is for this reason, I call him my "soul mate" as he, literally, healed me.

  6. #36
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    The way to make ESTJs happy is to jump through all their hoops.
    Yes, but I refuse to do that. I'm extremely stubborn about my freedom to choose for myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    What exactly did they do that seemed "rude"? (I probably should have asked this earlier) Were they just not returning your friendliness back at the same level although they were still technically being civil/polite? If so, I think I'm beginning to understand what kind of problem you're having, and what's causing it.
    Definition: not being nice = not being polite.

    I accept that not everybody is friendly towards other people but if there is not even the basic politeness then it kind of hurt me (not usually very deaply thought).

    Usually I don't even need words, just looking at somebody who reject you by meeting you. I feel the rejection. It's probably that I expect everybody to be open to other people and when they are not, I'm disappointed and maybe even hurt.

    The other thing is somebody who I have known for a long time. It's just somebody I have to get along (for example a co-worker, a relative, or even some distant friend). I usually do anything so we can get along and I get really frustrated if I am turned down constantly. I do give up after trying countless times. When I give up I withdraw, I act very coldly towards those people and I try to avoid them as much as possible. But even if I act coldly and am withdrawn, I am still constantly disturbed about us not getting along and hurted by the rejection even if I feel I have given so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by philonightmare View Post
    (I don't believe people deserve to be treated unkindly, unless there is some extraordinary circumstance that would trigger that kind of reaction).
    I believe very strongly for this, to treat people kindly.

    Quote Originally Posted by antireconciler View Post
    I think there is a great benefit in being able to start fresh with people, and to not bother to remember your gripes about them.

    The point is simply that it takes too much energy to try to remember who has harmed you and who hasn't.
    You have misread my thoughts. It's not about remembering who has harmed me. I forgive and forget very easily. I don't remember my gripes with people. As soon as the people I had to deal with are gone, I don't worry about them rejecting me anymore. The problem is more in the current situation, the situation when it happens or with the people I just have to deal year after year. The situation is on all the time and it bothers me.

    But if another upsets you, what is the point of keeping it hidden? Do you believe that you would be succumbing to a vulnerability to react negatively to the situation?
    I would never ever in my life show my disappointment in these situations. I will not do it and I don't want to. They do not deserve to see how they made me feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    I'm not sure type has the greater part in this. I think it may be more about what was there or missing during critical developmental phases. I was raised in a cold, rejecting, abusive environment and I think that made me crave acceptance and approval. I have, consequently, allowed people to walk all over me most of my life. It took the love of an exceptional man to help me start laying boundaries. I don't think I would ever have begun standing up for myself without the unconditional acceptance of another human being. It is for this reason, I call him my "soul mate" as he, literally, healed me.
    I had a supportive childhood but it was very much emphasizing only positive emotions. I wasn't really tought to deal with the negative emotions because they were not appreciated to be shown. So the main problem here could be that I try to avoid the negative emotions I get from rejection because I'm not really good dealing with them...? (That's a totally new thought for me...! )

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post


    So the main problem here could be that I try to avoid the negative emotions I get from rejection because I'm not really good dealing with them...? (That's a totally new thought for me...! )
    Aren't lightbulb moments a joy!?

  8. #38
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    I have had this problem:
    I am nice even to those people who are not nice to me. It goes sometimes even to the point where I get verbally kicked into my face and still I am totally unable to be rude to them.

    I basically try to avoid people who are not responding to my friendliness. It's not always possible (at work for example) and that's why I would need to change this "habit" of mine.

    I do have to admit that I too have my limits and I will eventually say something when I get fed up. I can be very offensive when I get mad and then people really should watch out their actions concerning me.

    The question here is:
    Is being friendly to everybody a common NF problem, a common ENFP problem or is it just me trying to behave nicely with people?
    If you are nice but don't want to be nice, you are being emotionally raped! If you look at it like that and practice being assertive it will help. I've been there. I used to be too nice. People used to take advantage of my good nature. Now I am selectively too nice, like in the case of my roommate, which is the subject of another post.

    When someone is nasty to you they are projecting their own self-hatred on to you. You are somehow symbolic of whatever it is they hate about themself. You have to learn to be vicious and push back forcefully or they just won't stop. If they do it to you, why should you not do it to them? Think of it as self-defense.

  9. #39
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    If you are nice but don't want to be nice, you are being emotionally raped! If you look at it like that and practice being assertive it will help. I've been there. I used to be too nice. People used to take advantage of my good nature. Now I am selectively too nice, like in the case of my roommate, which is the subject of another post.

    When someone is nasty to you they are projecting their own self-hatred on to you. You are somehow symbolic of whatever it is they hate about themself. You have to learn to be vicious and push back forcefully or they just won't stop. If they do it to you, why should you not do it to them? Think of it as self-defense.
    I know the problem and I really try to build up the defences against it. It just hard because people's emotions affect me straight away. I have many times noticed that when I came home from work. At work with a bad athmosphere, I was really upset and low. When I drove home my mood was ok again and there was no other reason for the mood change except me going off the workplace! I'm such a mood animal.

  10. #40
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    I know the problem and I really try to build up the defences against it. It just hard because people's emotions affect me straight away. I have many times noticed that when I came home from work. At work with a bad athmosphere, I was really upset and low. When I drove home my mood was ok again and there was no other reason for the mood change except me going off the workplace! I'm such a mood animal.
    Black cloud of death syndrome. That's exactly the problem I have with my roommate right now. Try to avoid miserable people at all costs. They will drag you down.

    Whenever someone is miserable make a point of intentially ignoring them. Make sure it is obvious that you are snubbing them. But reward them with friendliness when they are in a good mood, this will train them to be in a good mood in your presence. Punish them for miserable behavior , reward them for happy behavior. You have a special gift in that you have the power to make people feel good. Make use of it.

    Bet you didn't know you can train people like dogs:footballreferee:, did you?

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