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  1. #21
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    My brother is an ENFP and if somebody picks on him then he tries to make a joke, which doesn't always work under the circumstances.

    Being occasionally rude is a terrific skill to practise. You don't even have to be that snappy, (which can be a tremendous boon.) If you're in a situation and it seems somebody is about to say something rude, or even if they have said something rude, give them a scathing look and just say, "shut up." It doesn't mean becoming an ice queen or anything as it doesn't sound that devastating.

    And when you say it, make sure you don't look that angry, if you can, make it look like you're a little bored. Practise this face:

    And don't smile to them again until they smile to you. It's one rule I live by, and it serves me well.





    If all else fails, start bringing a knife to work. Then they'll know....
    Why do we always come here?

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  2. #22
    Senior Member JustDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    The question here is:
    Is being friendly to everybody a common NF problem, a common ENFP problem or is it just me trying to behave nicely with people?
    I don't know.

    However, (I could never pull this off as diplomatically I'm a big clumsy bull in the proverbial china shop) I believe in aura but not in the spooky metaphysical sense. Basically if you are nice to those that aren't nice to you other people are bound to notice and conclude that you are a decent person. In turn they will think more favorably of you and less of the person who is mean to you. To make a long story short you might gain friends as these mean people lose them.

  3. #23
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    Why? It can be as what others I'm sure have said: fear of rejection, fear of insulting someone, fear of being perceived The Bitch/Bastard. Perhaps you feel being nice enough will change them into being nice towards you?

    I know that I've always been as nice as possible, given certain circumstances. If I sense insincerity in a person, I try to be politely nice in order to discover for sure if they are so as not to prejudge them unfairly. If found insincere, I try to help if possible or if offended enough to reject the idea, or I quickly remove myself from their presence if I can't, or I tolerate them by trying to remain distant as they may be a friend of one of mine or related or there is no chance for avoidance.

    I try to maintain cool civility when verbally assaulting a person whom I feel deserves it, for the most part. Unless there was physical violence of some sort or intent for it, not even so much as a breath in holding back. And no holding back when I don't feel like it as I've learned it's fine to verbally decimate people whom truly deserve it though I recognise that it may have been wrong of me to lose my cool. I'm only human and I try not to resort to that, but it happens! I've sometimes made friendly acquaintances of former mean people as I knew they likely were dealing with their own personal problems and were likely venting it out inappropriately onto others. I've since learned to let go from trying to be 'too nice' or being so out of guilt for potentially failing people for not being "that nice person we all trust and love". It's made me keep distance from everyone when I let guilt eat at me or anger for being attacked wrongly when it happens, so I don't let it happen anymore (I hope!)~

    I've learned that you must create boundaries for how you treat others and most importantly for yourself so that you'll likely not 'get fed up' and need to withdraw to retreive your happiness or peace of mind. It's not that you aren't a genuinely nice person for being dismissive and perceived rude to others for being so, it's that you are respecting your own self worth because you have a right in not being attacked if wrongly done against you. It pays to try to understand the POV of another if they are being rude to you, but if you cannot reason with them or feel comfortable to ask as they may not deserve it, then it's okay to just let it go. Don't be nice and waste your positive energy on someone who'll likely just continue to drain you of it. Be happy that you were conscientious enough to be nice unconditionally, conscientious enough to be nice enough to stop them from assaulting you (by w/e means), and conscientious in respecting yourself for being a human being just trying to co-exist in a world with a lot of misunderstood, continously beaten and beating individuals who don't know how to rid themselves of their own abused self-worth from others as well as from themselves.

  4. #24
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    It's not fair that friendly people get kicked into the face. I don't know why that always happens. Maybe some people do not like to see other people happy and friendly?
    I find it's not friendly people who get kicked in the face. It's friendly people, or not even so much as friendly people, who allow themselves to get kicked in the face. Or it's passive people who don't know how to stop it thus allow it. Nobody asks for it, I'm sure, but why not stop them? What's stopping you? You are allowing it to happen if you don't try (unless you justifiably can't, such as a child against a big adult or similar). Anyone who so much as thinks I'm 'nice' enough to get picked on, rare though it is as years of being desensitized as left me sometimes with an impassively mispercieved mean face , sorely loses that understanding when I come out to correct that err of judgement. Then they and all around who witnessed the correction---- fear me and I don't even have to blow up to do it! It might just be a creatively insulted word or two!

    I don't think it's just that others want to drag you down into their fear/hate/anger, though some most certaintly DO TRY. I sometimes think they are projecting their unhappiness and don't realise the cyclical pattern of pain they are in. Maybe you've seen a person who is nice but is in such a pattern of pain/anger that they can't perceive they are being jackasses or deliberately become so if they can't figure out how to help themselves ("What's the point in trying?") Or they've always been. It's up to you to respect yourself and respect them by not allowing them to damage their worth by damaging yours. If you can't reach a person by being nice to berate them for their behaviour, then it's not that it wasn't worth it. You aren't allowing them at that point, you are defending yourself as best as you can. All you can do is hope that they'll realise it at some point whether or not it was by your words or that of another's. Perhaps, a circumstance or realisation will dawn at them all on their own. At least, that's my view of it all

    If you try to stop someone but they don't respect you for it, become worse for it, it's best to find others in aiding you. If it gets to that point-- There is no use in suffering with a facade of nicety. I find that self-deceit of projected niceness, wherever it stems from (rejection/appearance/etc), as you are being just as mean to yourself as they are to you. I know it's hard figuring out why you are nice to mean people, but maybe if you look deep enough to find the root, you can pluck it out and plant a stronger one to sustain you better in future.

  5. #25
    Senior Member JustDave's Avatar
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    I try to maintain cool civility when verbally assaulting a person

    Brava! I didn't think that was possible.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustDave View Post
    I try to maintain cool civility when verbally assaulting a person

    Brava! I didn't think that was possible.
    It's partly transforming the experience into something fun , toyingly playful, and being creative in de-constructing a person. I find that it's sometimes just as helpful, like tough love, than just simply nice-ing them out. I show them how silly they are being, and if you haven't seen someone do that, it's astounding how it sometimes works better than just "being sweet" about it.

    Did I mention it's fun? PLUS creative insults are so much better than "Well, I'll f*** you up if you don't shut up!" ---My retort sometimes is "And I'll fist-f*** your mouth into the ground if you don't!" but only when I don't care in being perceived The Blown Up beyond reason Bitch.

  7. #27
    Senior Member JustDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    It's partly transforming the experience into something fun , toyingly playful, and being creative in de-constructing a person. I find that it's sometimes just as helpful, like tough love, than just simply nice-ing them out. I show them how silly they are being, and if you haven't seen someone do that, it's astounding how it sometimes works better than just "being sweet" about it.

    Did I mention it's fun? PLUS creative insults are so much better than "Well, I'll f*** you up if you don't shut up!" ---My retort sometimes is "And I'll fist-f*** your mouth into the ground if you don't!" but only when I don't care in being perceived The Blown Up beyond reason Bitch.
    That sounds like the manifestation of the quite strength INFJs allegedly posses. More power to you

  8. #28
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Long post ahead.

    First definition: when I wrote that I'm nice I mean that I am friendly and polite towards other people.

    What feels bad is that I am being friendly and polite and I'm not getting it back. It feels every time like a kick in the face. I don't feel I deserve the kick in the face if I am friendly and polite. That is my problem. I basically get dissappointed with people because I expect the best from them (and that's my problem to).

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    If they are the one failing in their responsibility to be polite to you, then they are the failure, and you are not responsible for their failure as long as you are behaving properly towards them.
    It's not my responsibility but it feels bad if I get treated the rude way after being polite and friendly. It feels that the person is not even given me a chance and that bothers me a lot even if I know that I cannot get along with everybody. But still I do believe in the goodness of people and that might be my biggest problem.

    Substitute: Your definition & post made me think of my sister who would have defined the situation excactly the same. I appreciate your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    If you find out, let me know too. *deflates* I think part of it is a need to be externally validated/approved.
    Sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I know that NF people in general (and especially NF women in Western culture, because they're socialized to be "nice") have mentioned this struggle to me over how they always feel they must be the "nice" one and feeling taken-advantage-of because of it. I don't think it is purely an NF thing, but I think it is easier for NFs to find themselves in that position.

    And you avoid people who don't respond to your friendliness because it hurts to experience someone being mean to you, and avoiding them is your only protection against hurt -- and not just being hurt, but (probably) at feeling the anger grow inside and being afraid you're going to react poorly and violate your own values if you continue to be mistreated by them.
    Thanks Jennifer for the really good post! The bolded part really strikes me as the thing here.

    I don't think my behavior is strange because who would want to feel hurt by other people? Maybe somebody who is masochist but I'm not such.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I don't think there is such a thing as a person being too nice or too friendly or too polite if it's all genuine.

    You seem to be saying that you want to change the way you are because you don't like the way things are working with other people right now.
    What exactly is the problem you are trying to change?
    I am being genuine with people. The feeling of friendliness and the politeness overpowers my dislike very much in the situation.

    I basically don't want to be hurt by people's rudeness and I think most of people do not want it. I don't see anything wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Alcearos, I'm not trying to say you aren't nice (you seem like you are ) but what makes you think you ARE nice? Why should someone have to accept and respond to your "niceness?"
    As I said I am friendly and polite.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    My best guess is that you are afraid of getting rejected and abandoned, so you let people shit on you as long as they don't tell you you're worthless in their eyes.

    Meh, I tend to do the same thing.

    Being nice is a good thing, I think, but you also have to be nice to yourself and learn when to stand up for yourself and extricate yourself from a situation, the same way you would do for a helpless friend who was being picked on.
    I really appreciate this post of yours Edahn. The bolded parts do sound familiar.

    Actually I have my limits too so people don't walk over me and if they do, they usually do it only once (and then I try to avoid them. )

    Quote Originally Posted by ferrisbueller View Post
    This may just be an ENFP thing, but other ENFP's and I have talked about how we really want other people to like us, even if they aren't friendly or we don't like them. It may stem from a desire to be liked more than from a desire to be a good person.
    Yes, exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
    And when you say it, make sure you don't look that angry, if you can, make it look like you're a little bored. Practise this face:
    I'll have to practise that even if my most used facial expression is this: .

    Quote Originally Posted by JustDave View Post
    I don't know.

    However, (I could never pull this off as diplomatically I'm a big clumsy bull in the proverbial china shop) I believe in aura but not in the spooky metaphysical sense. Basically if you are nice to those that aren't nice to you other people are bound to notice and conclude that you are a decent person. In turn they will think more favorably of you and less of the person who is mean to you. To make a long story short you might gain friends as these mean people lose them.
    I hope this happens more than the rudeness thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    Why? It can be as what others I'm sure have said: fear of rejection, fear of insulting someone, fear of being perceived The Bitch/Bastard. Perhaps you feel being nice enough will change them into being nice towards you?
    Yes, that's probably what I think and of course, I cannot change the way people will act towards me.

    I've learned that you must create boundaries for how you treat others and most importantly for yourself so that you'll likely not 'get fed up' and need to withdraw to retreive your happiness or peace of mind. It's not that you aren't a genuinely nice person for being dismissive and perceived rude to others for being so, it's that you are respecting your own self worth because you have a right in not being attacked if wrongly done against you. It pays to try to understand the POV of another if they are being rude to you, but if you cannot reason with them or feel comfortable to ask as they may not deserve it, then it's okay to just let it go. Don't be nice and waste your positive energy on someone who'll likely just continue to drain you of it. Be happy that you were conscientious enough to be nice unconditionally, conscientious enough to be nice enough to stop them from assaulting you (by w/e means), and conscientious in respecting yourself for being a human being just trying to co-exist in a world with a lot of misunderstood, continously beaten and beating individuals who don't know how to rid themselves of their own abused self-worth from others as well as from themselves.
    Yes, I definitely will develop some boudaries but as one of my workmates told me: you are open as a book, you might be too open. I agree with her but how to change?

  9. #29
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    I just wanted to add that what I describe in this thread is not a problem that I would face every day. I do get along with most of people nicely. It's just somebody sometimes (one ESTJ at the moment) and really gets me irritated. So people do not push around me or walk over me daily.

    (And now I'm wondering why I ever started this thread.)
    I'll promise that I try to be less friendly and polite because I got the feeling based on this thread that there is really no problem and it's just me whining.

  10. #30
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    I do things for people even when I don't want to do them... being nice is in this category. I go out of my way to ridiculous measures to avoid conflict or pain or discomfort for other people. And then I resent doing these things because I feel like I'm being forced into it <albeit by myself> and I resent even more that no one seems to notice, or I am taken for granted.

    I deduce from this, and from knowing myself, that I want to make myself important to other people because I need validation/reassurance. And when I realize that nothing I do is necessary for them, that I could just as easily not put all that effort into the relationship or exchange and it would make no difference, well, it makes me feel like being exraordinarily rude.

    But, since most of this is going on below the level of most people's notice, and I know this, obviously, I know too that being a bitch about it or being rude or even expressing hurt, is pointless.
    Unless you honestly think someone hasn't noticed what they're doing and would change if you told them there is no point in expressing anger. Which is lame since it's usually just that knowledge that makes you angry.

    So maybe you're nice to rude people because being rude to rude people is a waste of time. And as long as you think of it like that, and consider the idea that you're being nice for your own sake and not for theirs, I think you'll feel less like you're getting your face-kicked-in.
    I want a love who knows that loving him is all I want to do

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