User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 22

  1. #1
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    3,823

    Lightbulb Seeking advice: INTJ in an NF culture

    My career has me placed in NF idealist culture for the long haul.

    I'm interested in receiving some very straightforward feedback from the NF community. What are some specific characteristics, traits and behaviours that you've seen from INTJs that in any way hinder your comfort level, your ability to excel and thrive, or that unintentionally obstruct your goals?

    What are some specific characteristics, traits and behaviours that you've seen from INTJs that complement, uplift and support your comfort level, your ability to excel and thrive, and add fuel and thrust to your pursuits?

    In a nutshell:
    What should I try to stop doing or tone down? What should I try to keep doing or do more enthusiastically and noticeably?

    Honest constructive criticism (both positive and negative) from the NF community is going to pay dividends later on, so please be as open as possible. Also, I promise to take every post with a large grain of salt. I realize that your unique perspective may not be shared with all of the other NFs. I promise to treat your posts as individual situations rather than large-scale truths.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  2. #2
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Well, it really depends on whether you're dealing with NFJs or NFPs. There are important differences.

    With NFJs, the biggest thing you want to avoid, is being too blunt or insensitive to others. If you need to criticize an NFJ, it's best to do so in private, where they'll be more receptive to what you have to say (especially ENFJs, who will be more concerned about image). The biggest thing to watch out for, though, is criticizing an NFJ's friends in front of them... that's a very quick way to turn them against you. NFJs will take personal criticism a lot better than criticism of people they care about.

    With NFPs, you have to be careful to avoid criticism of their values in any shape or form. You have to sound like you acknowledge the validity of their perspective or the way they do something, while pointing out that you think that a certain method would be more effective in practical terms. You can be a little more blunt about clearly objective things, though. As long as you don't attack any important ideals or violate any principles, you should be safe. The thing you have to watch out for, though, is that you won't always know if an NFP is angry with you, because they don't always express it (especially INFPs). So if they suddenly seem less open/friendly or start avoiding you, you may have to pry a bit and ask them what's wrong.

    The main INTJ tendencies you should work on, are faking Fe (probably something you're already good at), but also avoid coming across as uncreative, "fake," or dull while doing this. NFs tend to find people who don't show creativity rather dull and annoying, even though they may be far more polite to them than NTs are. However, NFPs especially hate "phonies."

    NFs can be tougher to get along with than SJs for this reason, because you have to show real creativity in order to be accepted on more than a superficial level, yet you still have to be cautious with people's sensitivities while doing this, so you have to stifle a lot of your actual ideas because they will be too critical of the way things are done, or someone else's ideals.

    By the way, I'm really sorry that you're stuck here in the Southern US. If your assumption that you'll be dealing with NFs is based on your first impression of our culture, I should point out that the Southern US is more SFJ than anything else. If it's based on the corporate culture of the company in question, you are more likely to be correct.

    Oh, and that information... it's mostly for average NFs rather than especially self-aware or mature ones. With the ones who are more mature, you may just be able to be yourself.

    Another good pointer, I think is, to ask any NFJs you encounter for advice on how to behave. They'll probably be happy to give you pointers on how to get along with the people around you, and explain what the expectations are.

  3. #3
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    With NFJs, the biggest thing you want to avoid, is being too blunt or insensitive to others. If you need to criticize an NFJ, it's best to do so in private, where they'll be more receptive to what you have to say (especially ENFJs, who will be more concerned about image). The biggest thing to watch out for, though, is criticizing an NFJ's friends in front of them... that's a very quick way to turn them against you. NFJs will take personal criticism a lot better than criticism of people they care about.

    With NFPs, you have to be careful to avoid criticism of their values in any shape or form. You have to sound like you acknowledge the validity of their perspective or the way they do something, while pointing out that you think that a certain method would be more effective in practical terms. You can be a little more blunt about clearly objective things, though. As long as you don't attack any important ideals or violate any principles, you should be safe. The thing you have to watch out for, though, is that you won't always know if an NFP is angry with you, because they don't always express it (especially INFPs). So if they suddenly seem less open/friendly or start avoiding you, you may have to pry a bit and ask them what's wrong.

    The main INTJ tendencies you should work on, are faking Fe (probably something you're already good at), but also avoid coming across as uncreative, "fake," or dull while doing this. NFs tend to find people who don't show creativity rather dull and annoying, even though they may be far more polite to them than NTs are. However, NFPs especially hate "phonies."

    NFs can be tougher to get along with than SJs for this reason, because you have to show real creativity in order to be accepted on more than a superficial level, yet you still have to be cautious with people's sensitivities while doing this, so you have to stifle a lot of your actual ideas because they will be too critical of the way things are done, or someone else's ideals.

    Oh, and that information... it's mostly for average NFs rather than especially self-aware or mature ones. With the ones who are more mature, you may just be able to be yourself.
    Ok, so here's my thing with this information: it seems almost of a contradictory nature.

    It's like the Fed's mandate: foster a low-unemployment environment, but also keep prices stable.

    The two goals seem almost to work against one another...

    Ofcourse, you already recognize this and commented on it with the underlined.

    But what do you recommend, considering, with your first two points, you seem to largely be saying that we must stifle traits that are strongly associated with INTJs (insensitivity and objective criticism), when doing so feels like it will cause the third and fourth problems (coming across as fake and uncreative)?

    Sometimes I wonder whether there's almost some sort of "zero sum game" when it comes to our personalities: is it better to just be ourselves and risk hurting some feelings and offending some people, or must we sacrifice this in order to better achieve our goals, due to the need to appease/appeal to other peoples' personalities?

    And how is this all related to growth? What is the proper balance?

  4. #4
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ok, so here's my thing with this information: it seems almost of a contradictory nature.

    It's like the Fed's mandate: foster a low unemployment environment, but keep prices stable.

    The two goals seem to work against each other...

    Ofcourse, you recognized this and commented on it with the underlined.

    So, what do you recommend, considering, with your first two points, you largely seem to be saying that we must stifle traits that are strongly associated with INTJs (insensitivity and objective criticism), when doing so feels like it will cause the third and fourth problems (coming across as fake and uncreative)?

    Sometimes I wonder whether there's almost some sort of "zero sum game" when it comes to our personalities: is it better to just be ourselves, or must we sacrifice that to best achieve our goals, due to the need to appease/appeal to other peoples' personalities?

    Where is the balance?
    Well, the balance depends very much on the specific NF types you'll be encountering.

    With NFPs, I have to admit, you're probably better off just being yourself, but keep Fi sensitivity in the back of your mind when using Te (which may be easier for INTJs than for me, actually). NFPs are the ones that are worried about phonies.

    With NFJs, it really depends on how their Fe is programmed. Some of them might be quite comfortable with Te, while others might find it offensive. With the ones who find it offensive, you're probably better off focusing on politeness (even if it makes you seem dull and uncreative) while in groups, but you can be more critical and creative in private one-on-one, which will allow your brilliance to shine.

    And if you're encountering NFPs mixed with NFJs? Umm... good luck. You're bound to annoy someone, and there might be a lot of drama between the NFPs and NFJs themselves. You may have to choose between appeasing the NFJ camp, or the NFP camp. Or, you could try to be the person (or one of the people) who keeps everyone focused on the goal they're there to achieve and not bickering over petty personal differences. That's the harder route to take, though, and might make you unpopular (though it would be the best thing for the project).

    The thing you should remember, above all, though... is that a lot of NFs really like NTs on some level.

  5. #5
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, the balance depends very much on the specific NF types you'll be encountering.

    With NFPs, I have to admit, you're probably better off just being yourself, but keep Fi sensitivity in the back of your mind when using Te (which may be easier for INTJs than for me, actually). NFPs are the ones that are worried about phonies.

    With NFJs, it really depends on how their Fe is programmed. Some of them might be quite comfortable with Te, while others might find it offensive. With the ones who find it offensive, you're probably better off focusing on politeness (even if it makes you seem dull and uncreative) while in groups, but you can be more critical and creative in private one-on-one, which will allow your brilliance to shine.

    And if you're encountering NFPs mixed with NFJs? Umm... good luck. You're bound to annoy someone, and there might be a lot of drama between the NFPs and NFJs themselves. You may have to choose between appeasing the NFJ camp, or the NFP camp. Or, you could try to be the person (or one of the people) who keeps everyone focused on the goal they're there to achieve and not bickering over petty personal differences. That's the harder route to take, though.

    The thing you should remember, above all, though... is that a lot of NFs really like NTs on some level.
    Interesting comments... I think the bolded is where I would prefer to reside... I am was a Libra...

    I'd already figured that phoniness was more the issue for the NFPs, and politeness more the issue for the NFJs...

    I could actually feel/see myself going through those social situations as you described them like I've already gone through this analysis before hundreds of times...

    Very interesting to see that occurring... you know your communication style actually rings a lot of Te? I wonder if it's Te, or akin to our mimicking Fe...? Or just Fe or Ti?

  6. #6
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Interesting comments...

    I'd already figured that phoniness was more the issue for the NFPs, and politeness more the issue for the NFJs...
    That's Ni, my friend.

    I could actually feel/see myself going through those social situations as you described them like I've already gone through this analysis before hundreds of times...
    You probably have been, you just might not have used typology as part of that analysis.
    Very interesting to see that occurring... you know your communication style actually rings a lot of Te? I wonder if it's Te, or akin to our mimicking Fe...? Or just Fe or Ti?
    I have a tendency to unconsciously mirror the communication style of whoever I'm speaking with. So it's very likely that I'm mirroring Te in order to communicate more effectively with INTJs.

    I also use a lot of Ti with INTPs, etc. A lot of INTPs say that they think I'm an INTP, and a lot of INTJs say that they think I'm an INTJ. As far as I'm concerned, that means my Fe is doing it's job, hehe.

    The only thing I can't pull off is Fi... I tend to have a lot of conflict with NFPs if we go into anything that gets deeper than their Ne, because while we're both idealists... we tend to have different ideals, and disagree about the means of achieving them. NFJs care more about the achievable good, and NFPs care more about purity of intentions and methods. It's very much like the conflict between NTPs and NTJs.

  7. #7
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    i get along really easily with INTJs. i assume it's the Te/Fi crossover. i suspect you don't really have to change much to get along easily with most ENFPs... just be willing to explain your Ni ideas more than once, and understand that we're not Js too and therefore have to put a lot more effort into not deviating from The Plan. the only thing i'd say is ever really a problem, in my experience, is that the NT tendency to assert correctness gets reallyyyy annoying sometimes.

    as for what i like... you're direct and insightful, you have a good touch of Fi and your sense of humor is awesome. your communication is clear and plainly organized. you're good at anticipating and predicting, and you're calm and cool. you're also a little standoffish, which is pleasing, imo, but others might not find that to be true.

    as for navigating with a mixture of NF types... i would think that, when you're first getting to know people, toning down the directive Te and trying to be Fe-polite would be useful. the good thing about the NFP phony radar is that it generally knows when you're toning down for the sake of toning down, as opposed to trying to hide something. those are very different feelings (Fi being about good/bad intention and all) - plus INTJs have tert Fi, so that should resonate anyway. after getting to know people, i like what athenian said about being the one who maintains goal focus.

    as for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    But what do you recommend, considering, with your first two points, you seem to largely be saying that we must stifle traits that are strongly associated with INTJs (insensitivity and objective criticism), when doing so feels like it will cause the third and fourth problems (coming across as fake and uncreative)?

    Sometimes I wonder whether there's almost some sort of "zero sum game" when it comes to our personalities: is it better to just be ourselves and risk hurting some feelings and offending some people, or must we sacrifice this in order to better achieve our goals, due to the need to appease/appeal to other peoples' personalities?

    And how is this all related to growth? What is the proper balance?
    maybe this can be addressed via changing communication style, but not content of what is being communicated. like, if you want to support an ENFJ, it's probably more effective to focus on their positive behavior, while if you want to support an ENFP, it's probably more effective to focus on their inner value. it's an extra step, but i imagine Te criticism can be channeled into more Fe-friendly language. less about stifling and more about adjusting presentation... you'd figure there has to be some point of optimization between your natural communication style and the other person's communication style, in terms of effort expended versus improvement in relationship.

    though again, i wouldn't worry about setting off the fakedar. it's like santa, it knows when you've been bad or good...

  8. #8
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,658

    Default

    Try the feedback techniques given in conflict seminars. They tend to appeal to people in general, Fi or Fe.

    The short version of those is the sandwich technique:

    I like that you -blablablablab-

    AND (NEVER but) I would do alos -blablabla things you wanna change-

    However, overall - insert summary of what you like so far -

    Apply this to any interaction, it'll save your life and your nerves as well as your bond with others.

    Also, do this shit when you're alone with them, with a smile on your face, and NEVER EVER use the words YOU HAVE TO.



    INTJ traps:

    1) INtjs are concise to be effective. However, you won't be effective if you cannot motivate your staff. So stop being concise and turn it into confirming, and encouraging. Feedback is key, especially feedback that's positive. Yes, I know, you guys tend to notice only what is missing from the process to make it perfect and comment on that, as that is effective, but it will get you *no where* with people. Notice what *is* working, comment on that, and only *then* comment on what would make it even more awesome! If you blurt out: 'this needs fixing', the person who is insecure and feels like they should've made that work is going to go porcupine on you.

    I know it's a 2 step thing instead of a 1 step thing to being effective and therefore contradictory to being effective but believe me, it'll save you a lot of head aches and ultimately...be more effective

    in short: positive feed back and follow up= happy, secure people.

    2) Just becoz you're able to see somethign is going wrong, doesn't mean others have your Ni-vision. They have other skills. Use and respect those skill and be understanding and supporting in their weaknesses. Look at your people as resources that need perfect maintenance. What is it that makes her tick, what does she *need* in order to function properly (much like oil on a squeeky door) and do the thing she does best..which is why you need her. It's your job to provide her with that. Also realize that while she's good at some things, she might be overseeing other things, things that seem second nature to you. Don't get frustrated at that, you cannot do what she does best either.

    3) See it as a big puzzle..a system, to come together, instead of people getting in your way. A chess board if you will. If people are part of the system you have to fix things, and any system is flawed, which INTjs tend to rule at fixing...this should be right up your alley
    In order to fix the system however, you oftne need tools that are a bit foreign to intjs but not impossible: warmth, understanding, a smile. It also needs tools you do possess: confidence, support and a keen mind.


    Good luck to ya
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    2,390

    Default

    Alternatively, work predominantly with T flavours. Time effective and more productive.

  10. #10
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    17,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    My career has me placed in NF idealist culture for the long haul.
    The problem I see is that of being different from everyone else and the group dynamics associated with that. Also, this will lead towards you attempting to conform to the way the NFs are when you are not an NF, which would create some level of internal tension. I wonder about the issues and risks of being in a situation where you aren't able to be who you are. I'm sure you've considered these things.

    The responses in this thread are excellent by the way.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

Similar Threads

  1. [INTJ] Stuttering, Poor Self-Image and Resultant Lack of Confidence in an INTJ?
    By Far7anR in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-01-2014, 03:15 PM
  2. [INTJ] An INTJ I know is in an Ni-Fi loop--can I help?
    By SubtleFighter in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 11-25-2013, 01:48 PM
  3. [INTJ] An INTJ in Crisis
    By Akhilleus in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-04-2012, 05:16 PM
  4. Do we live in an obscene culture?
    By Survive & Stay Free in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 02-15-2010, 05:20 PM
  5. [MBTItm] NT's in an NF culture???
    By Scott N Denver in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-18-2009, 01:40 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO