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  1. #11
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    Consider the human factor .. always ..

  2. #12
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    From my own perspective, when working with an NF, use your Fi to help you when being critical of other's as well as their own performance. Think of how you would like to be told to do things, and how you'd feel. One thing that can get on my nerves is if someone tells me that what I am doing sucks, or my technique is ineffective, without telling me WAYS to improve my technique. Those that operate by Fe want to cooperate with you and follow your instructions, so don't crush their ideas, take them into consideration, they care about what you think and take it to heart. Give an NF the opportunity to try something and if it isn't initially done effectively, show them ways to improve their techniques... "This will work much better... try this out." Showing positive reinforcement helps a ton for NFs.

    If an NF's pursuit doesn't seem practical enough to be applied in the real world, it's honestly best to let the NF figure it out for themselves, or to show an NF how to achieve their goals, albeit in a form different from the one they wish for. I think that NF's benefit a ton from NT contingency planning, it's a way for them to turn their dreams into reality.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The problem I see is that of being different from everyone else and the group dynamics associated with that. Also, this will lead towards you attempting to conform to the way the NFs are when you are not an NF, which would create some level of internal tension. I wonder about the issues and risks of being in a situation where you aren't able to be who you are. I'm sure you've considered these things.

    The responses in this thread are excellent by the way.
    To the OP: I am essentially in the inverse of your situation, in that I am a NF in an INTJ culture, and have been for like 10 years. There is much that I could say, and virtually none of it is positive. To be fair, I've been in physics-based research, which is not only INTJ but seems to draw the extra-cerebral extra not-social/friendly INTJ's. Have you ever seen the tv show The Big Bang Theory? Having spent a number of years in physics grad school, and having talked about it with some of my peers, that show is spot on in its portrayal of kinds of people that one often meets in physics. I also want to point out that I'm a NFP, INFP can often "hide" as INTP's, I've never worked in a NF culture [and so have something of a hard time imagining what they would actually be like], and other than yoga classes or spiritual groups I don't think I've ever been in a NF culture ever. In physics grad school, of all my peers, I think about 75% were INTJ's, and I've only ever had 2 NF peers, 1 ENFP and 1 INFJ.

    Responding to the post I quoted above, I think it'd be fair easier thing to be a INTJ amongst NF than to be a NF amongst INTJ's. I personally think that NTJ's are the generally most judgemental and condescending of the MBTI types AND they aren't able to hide it or really keep it to themselves. NF's, and especially NFP's tend to leave others alone, let them be themselves, and don't generally try to condemn or "change" other people.

    One of the major "failings" I've seen of NTJ"s towards NF's [ie me, the INFJ and ENFP weren't around anymore by this point] is what I refer to as "you can never succeed, the best you can ever do is to just not fail" mentality. Here are two examples. First, and I'm almost quoting word for word here from what they said: "In case you haven't noticed yet, we don't really believe in positive recognition here. You are expected to do your job, we won't praise you for that, well unless you do this just really super good job with some particular project. However, if your "failing or sucking" [note: that was my paraphrasing right there] we'll definitely let you know right away." Here is a second example, also largely quoted word for word: "I am very hard to impress. You are an average employee, and will be for about 5 years. If you work well, in 5 years might be an above average employee, if you work really hard you might be an above average employee in 4 years."

    I would describe many of my current and past peers as: intense, serious, uptight, rigid, cold, emotionally retarded [they would probably say almost that themselves], emotionally oblivious [many have mentioned that themselves], unfun, not cool, uber uncool, and maybe assholes.

    Beware of the idea that information is "value free" and hence can be discussed freely whenever. For example, asking what a coworker thinks of someone and then saying that in public, or publicly calling your bosses bosses boss an idiot and then spending 5 minutes going in detail about why you think that.

    It might be hard to do, but be very cognizant of being or appearing condescending in what you say or how you say it.

    I'm amazed how many people I've met, usually PhD level, who never say something like "Morning Joe" or "Morning" or "Good morning Joe" or "How's it going today Joe" but instead just seem to glare at you, and in an ?accusing?/declarative voice just say "Joe." Be polite, or if were gonna talk lets talk, but don't just "acknowledge" me while glaring at me [or in this example, Joe] and walk by.

    I don't really have any advice here, but I'd be cognizant of the possibility of being seen as rigid, or frigid, emotionally speaking.
    I think its a J, IJ, TJ, and ITJ thing to look and feel like you *know* you are right. Even if your not. Be especially aware of this if what your doing is seen as "invalidating" "denying" or "calling incorrect/irrational" other people's emotions and emotional reaction. I think this may very well be the biggest issue of NF's with NTJ's. The whole "efficiency above all else, respect my competence, don't infringe on my independence" may all be pretty up there. I remember offering an INTJ help on one particular occasion, and there reaction seemed to scream "I am competent enough to do this by msyelf, don't insult my competence!" coupled with "don't insult my independence by implying that having someone else helping would be a help to me!"


    Many INTJ's Ive met, *especially* INTJ women seem incredibly pushy, bossy, and sometimes just outright bitchy. I've heard a number of NTJ peers say exactly this INTJ women as well. Personally, I think this gets most magnified when said INTJ woman seem to think that they can do everything just fine by themselves and don't need nay help or anyone else around.

    Efficiency is not the number 1 most important work attribute, not is your independence guaranteed. Especially when an INTJ "blows over" someone else's feelings in the name of expediency or efficiency.

    Be comfortable with other people sharing their feelings with you, and occasionally needing emotional support or consolation.

    General discussions about "everyone is so stupid!","humanity is composed of nothing but idiots" "why don't other people see/recognize/appreciate my greatness" "why most of the population should be forcefully sterilized" "if you were smarter you'd understand my ideas and why there so great, but your just a an average stupid peon and it would be a waste of my time to dumb down and explain my ideas so that your puny little mind can understand them" and other such demeaning things should be kept to yourself.

    I'm sure there are many things I've forgotten, but thats a start.

    Again, I've never worked in, and have barely even ever been in a NF environment, so I can only guess what that would be like. I feel liek much of what I've said is stuff to avoid, and not "stuff to make sure you do." I'm curious, what kind of work will this be that is mostly NF??? Psychology prof, psychotherapist??? Also,a re you willing to say anymore about where in the Southwest you are???

    Oh, I think the other posts here have had lots of good advice, particularly Satine's.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    I see that I didn't answer some of your questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    My career has me placed in NF idealist culture for the long haul.

    I'm interested in receiving some very straightforward feedback from the NF community. What are some specific characteristics, traits and behaviours that you've seen from INTJs that in any way hinder your comfort level, your ability to excel and thrive, or that unintentionally obstruct your goals?
    All of them. Seriously, not a single counterexample is coming to mind.

    What are some specific characteristics, traits and behaviours that you've seen from INTJs that complement, uplift and support your comfort level, your ability to excel and thrive, and add fuel and thrust to your pursuits?
    Complement, support, uplift: Umm, probably none. Occasionally I respect their assertiveness, but most of the time feel like they have a "mack truck" or "bulldozer" mentality, there you are and then they run over you with a bulldozer or a mack truck.
    Excel and thrive: Nothing about INTJ environments has ever made me excel or thrive. NTP environments have though.
    Fuel and thrust to pursuits: yeah, nothing really here either
    Overall, there is nothing I've noticed in INTJ cultures that makes me work better, or want to work better. NTP cultures do have such things though. Out of work, and amongst friends, I sometimes found their impersonal insight helpful [for example with stock/investment advice, and they did have interesting ideas and theories about various more intellectual topics. I still never felt like they accepted or respected things that were important to me as an NF but eventually they learned to bite their tongue and not criticize when I felt a need to talk about such things.]



    In a nutshell:
    What should I try to stop doing or tone down? What should I try to keep doing or do more enthusiastically and noticeably?
    Avoid condescension, arguing, asserting how much smarter you are than others, how stupid lots of other people are, let others feel their emotions and express their emotions without trying to invalidate their feelings or calling them stupid/pointless/counterproductive/inefficient
    One thing I've seen, especially amongst many INTJ women, is that when they try to display their enthusiasm, they 1) either seem like the ultimate uber-nerds, or 2) they just seem even more pushy and bitchy and like they just do what they want and push everyone else away. Again, other male NTJ peers have concurred with number 2 there.


    Oh, some more to avoids: "Life is not an intellectual challenge, or game, to be argued and fought over."

    If people feel like dealing with an INTJ is "like getting hit by a golf club" whenever they deal with you [INTJ's can be stubborn!!!]. At an exit interview for a previous job, I told them that, though I did switch out "golf club" or "baseball bat" and added "getting hit in the head", as in "If every time you deal with these individuals you feel like your getting hit upside the head with a baseball bat, it really doesn't make you want to stay there."

    There is the famous saying "there is no I in team", but I feel like the INTJ mantra should be "there is no team in me!" Most jobs require team players and working with others, though I have learned that science research requires far far less of it than most jobs would.

    I don't know what you'll be doing workwise, and INFJ's are known for having the same fault, but I often notice the whole lack of Se and general sensotard. You are more than just your brain people!!! And you can envision whatever great ideas and theories you have, but you really seem to overlook major practical details. Sure you could go on some great scenic drive, but if there is no gas in the gas tank of the car, you won't be going very far! Someone has to remember to refill the gas, regardless of how boring a task that may be, or how much you view such minor details as "not intellectually sexy." I've seen "lack of intellectual sexiness" cause lots of practical problems, usually for other people.

    Seeming cold, being perceived as "a robot", rigid, uptight, serious, stubborn, pushy, bitchy, "that your lying" when you say social greeting things like "Good to see you" "Have a nice day" or other such social pleasantries, boring, nerdy, unfun, uncool, not someone you'd invite to a party or bar, "not emotionally participative", slow, emotionally retarted/low EQ, are all potential concerns that I can see for an INTJ working amongst NF's. They may or may not be issues for you, I don't know about you personally.

    If I had to summarize all of this is a single sentence I'd go with "Don't push yourself on/over other people."

  5. #15
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Thanks for the helpful replies, everyone! I appreciate it. I will respond to everyone shortly, but I have a family member visiting and won't have time to detailed-reply until Wednesday.

    Situation Update that may help focus responses:

    I'm in academia, so it's an NF-driven humanities community, mostly NFJ, where Ti rigor dealing with the NF topics is highly prized.

    I think I've been so cognizant that I'm in NF territory that I've been overdoing it because I don't want to eff it up? I was talking to an ENFJ about how I unintentionally bulldozed over someone in a seminar class and she assured me, "you're very sensitive, it's nbd," implying it was an outlier for my patterned behaviour, a bad day, and nothing for me to give a second thought about.

    But I'm getting the sense that maybe I've been very effectively masquerading as an NFJ to the point that I'm sensing people want to help me "develop" my T? The part of me that, for the most part, I've been hiding too effectively? I've been called out as being "very sensitive about people's feeelings" in so many words a few times, and I'm beginning to think, "geez, should I stop trying to be cognizant of these things?"

    How much INTJ is welcome?
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  6. #16
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Scott: Wow, umm... yeah, I don't think Usehername is THAT kind of INTJ. In fact, I haven't met many INTJs who have those problems to the extent that you speak of.

    I have to say, though, that I really can't imagine an INTJ saying things like "you will be an average employee for 5 years, and then you will be above average." INTJs are more like, "If you understand our overall goals/vision, and have what it takes to do this job efficiently and effectively, you have a future here. If you don't and/or can't, then you're wasting both our time and yours, and should seek another job." I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt that they are INTJs, of course, since I've never met them.

    But I do think you have made some very negative assumptions about INTJs that stem from frustration with your work environment.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername
    What are some specific characteristics, traits and behaviours that you've seen from INTJs that in any way hinder your comfort level, your ability to excel and thrive, or that unintentionally obstruct your goals?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    All of them. Seriously, not a single counterexample is coming to mind.
    It's responses like these that make me think you just shouldn't hire INFPs.

    I'm sorry to the INFPs who aren't like this, but it is this kind of INFP that causes this problem.
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  8. #18
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Situation Update that may help focus responses:

    I'm in academia, so it's an NF-driven humanities community, mostly NFJ, where Ti rigor dealing with the NF topics is highly prized.
    Academia? Okay, in that case, the NFJs in question will probably be intellectual types. In fact, you might need to work on your Ti skills, if you haven't already. You'll have to be prepared to explain and defend the principles behind your ideas, rather than just expecting it to stand on its own efficiency or effectiveness.
    I think I've been so cognizant that I'm in NF territory that I've been overdoing it because I don't want to eff it up? I was talking to an ENFJ about how I unintentionally bulldozed over someone in a seminar class and she assured me, "you're very sensitive, it's nbd," implying it was an outlier for my patterned behaviour, a bad day, and nothing for me to give a second thought about.

    But I'm getting the sense that maybe I've been very effectively masquerading as an NFJ to the point that I'm sensing people want to help me "develop" my T? The part of me that, for the most part, I've been hiding too effectively? I've been called out as being "very sensitive about people's feeelings" in so many words a few times, and I'm beginning to think, "geez, should I stop trying to be cognizant of these things?"
    That... could be correct. I know that if I were in Academia, I might respond the same way if I thought that you needed to use a little more critical thinking.

    One thing that you might have to remember is that while NFJs value politeness and harmony in general, and don't necessarily like people to disrupt that harmony... NFJs in Academia are often NT "wannabes," so people might get the impression that you're too shy to express your ideas because you're still too self-conscious, and they may be trying to give you confidence by assuring you that you're more than sensitive enough.

    Still, there are certain kinds of criticism you'll want to keep as one-on-one, but it's not as necessary as it is with NFJs who aren't in Academia.
    How much INTJ is welcome?
    INTJs... well, they're welcome as long as they're not too dismissive. Criticism is welcome if it's well reasoned out, but not as much as if the criticism is dismissal using a blanket word like "impractical" or "inefficient." You have to explain WHY it's impractical or inefficient, and have a suggestion of what you think would be better.

    I suppose that they would be pretty welcome, overall.

  9. #19
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The problem I see is that of being different from everyone else and the group dynamics associated with that. Also, this will lead towards you attempting to conform to the way the NFs are when you are not an NF, which would create some level of internal tension. I wonder about the issues and risks of being in a situation where you aren't able to be who you are. I'm sure you've considered these things.

    The responses in this thread are excellent by the way.
    well, i've lived in an SFJ-dominated community my whole life, and i think sometimes it can be frustrating - the way i act feels more "natural" when i travel north, for example, people up there are just so direct - but i don't feel stifled where i am. in fact, as of recently, i've realized that when i'm away and feeling down, i really i miss that cushion of SFJ genuine polite warmth. i think you learn to adapt - and it can be nice in some ways to be different, because you have distinct skills. i know i'm a little (lot) weird compared to most people, but i've learned to flow with SFJ culture and i think there are a lot of positives to it. plus i'm not sure, even amongst NFs, or NFPs, or ENFPs, i can ever feel 100% comfortable being myself. i think we're always going to have to adapt to some extent.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling
    Showing positive reinforcement helps a ton for NFs.
    this is an excellent point.

    @ Scott N Denver - i'm really sorry you've had such a bad experience. that sucks, and i hope you're in a more fulfilling environment now. i don't know if it's really fair to knock all/almost all INTJs because of that though... my thoughts are that, in an NT culture, some of that behavior is generally not offensive, and it's not really fair to ask the general culture to adapt to you. given, some of those individuals sound like assholes, and i'm sure some were, but i find it hard to believe that such a large group of humans really just failed at being... well, humane. it sounds like in general, their methods and the way they measured their successes were just a lot different than yours, and adapting to that standard was distasteful to your values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername
    I'm in academia, so it's an NF-driven humanities community, mostly NFJ, where Ti rigor dealing with the NF topics is highly prized.

    I think I've been so cognizant that I'm in NF territory that I've been overdoing it because I don't want to eff it up? I was talking to an ENFJ about how I unintentionally bulldozed over someone in a seminar class and she assured me, "you're very sensitive, it's nbd," implying it was an outlier for my patterned behaviour, a bad day, and nothing for me to give a second thought about.

    But I'm getting the sense that maybe I've been very effectively masquerading as an NFJ to the point that I'm sensing people want to help me "develop" my T? The part of me that, for the most part, I've been hiding too effectively? I've been called out as being "very sensitive about people's feeelings" in so many words a few times, and I'm beginning to think, "geez, should I stop trying to be cognizant of these things?"

    How much INTJ is welcome?
    well, i don't think that's necessarily a negative statement for people to make. i think, given NFs, it's generally either neutral or positive - probably the people saying it think you're kinda sweet for being like that. and actually, i suspect part of the reason you're getting that reaction is because your amped-up-F effort is much more Fi-like in nature, as opposed to the Fe most NFJs are using... Fe is more interpersonal behavior oriented, as opposed to inner feeeelings. and yeah, your FJ colleague has probably noticed your "sensitive" behavior and interpreted it as being a pattern. FJs do that, lol and they probably would like to help you harmonize with the environment. but she, and others, will update their interpretations if you provide them with new information.

    personally, i think as long as you're generally polite, i think you can just be yourself, and that's just fine. and then if you run into tension at any point, you can look to other strategies you know - ie invoking more F and Ti - to try to lessen the tension and communicate better. as an NF probably going into academia too, i really like NFs, but i'm appreciative of having other types around. especially if the culture is NFJ dominant, i think it's excellent to have some more Te/Fi around.

  10. #20
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It's responses like these that make me think you just shouldn't hire INFPs.

    I'm sorry to the INFPs who aren't like this, but it is this kind of INFP that causes this problem.
    If I had to guess, I think it's the aux Te that hits Scott N Denver's inferior Te buttons. I'm actually not sure it would be any different or better with ExTJs.

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