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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    INFP will need to express out emotions to someone who they trust and value highly, but won't tend to do so until they have processed and evaluated their emotions and thoughts as much as possible. Fe seems to need to talk out emotion with others to do this evaluation and judging.

    Like today my husband is working on his car, he is INFJ, in order to judge what he wants to do next, he seems to need to talk out loud to me about the process of what he is doing even though I don't understand what he is saying for the most part, it helps him to think to relate to me in this way I am guessing because thinking follows feeling for him and feeling for him is Fe.
    Yup yup yup. Or with thoughts when they've been laboured over through Ti and trusted to be spoken on and to whom appropriated for it. My best friend will often say after I've finished my lengthy single-sided discussion on the latest 'crusade' or 'interest' and not noticing her glazed eyes...

    Her: "You know I have no idea what you're saying but if you like it, go do it! " <--lovingly tells me to do, mind.

    I get irked, "But what didn't you get! Why didn't you stop me so I could explain? Tell me what, I'll help you get it."

    Her: "No!!! Enough, let's go now. I understood everything!"

    Me: "Lies! You're saying this to appease me!"

    After her trying to trick me and me not falling for it (anymore).

    Her: "Okay, fine, I lied. Happy? What do you care if I care? I said if it makes you happy then do it. But think it through."

    Me: "Feeling........Uh huh. Let's go." We But I say, "I'll explain it tomorrow!" (to bore her on purpose now ) and she'll groan lol

    (whether serious or all in fun it's a similiar pattern lol)

  2. #52
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    Default After a diversion, back to INFPs and INFJs!

    I realise I've all but dominated the Thread (well, it's MINE! ) but I'd like to return it to INFPs and INFJs as it's changed course to INFPs and ISTPs. No no no! Or not yet! I shall do this Chunk by Chunk so as not to overwhlem anyone reading. It's better this way so you can dissect and comment on one Chunkaroo at at time. That means I want your Fe-ed comments to improve my Ni so they can spit my Fe out at you! *ahem* Carrying on...

    heart touched on something I'd like to take further (thank you in advance, heart!):
    Quote Originally Posted by heart
    INFP will need to express out emotions to someone who they trust and value highly, but won't tend to do so until they have processed and evaluated their emotions and thoughts as much as possible. Fe seems to need to talk out emotion with others to do this evaluation and judging.
    INFPs are less likely to disclose personal information to people and strangers. INFJs are more likely to disclose personal information to people and even to strangers. What is seen as personal to an INFP may be everything valuable in their lives and inner world/mind. INFPs will not share that unless that person has been found worthy of that information and it takes time for trust to be deterimed (the motives of others) as they are cautious divulging such intimate things to others, whether or not other's find it not as intimately personal or just 'personal'. What is seen as intimately personal to an INFJ will not be shared unless to a person who is understood to them as valuable (trustworthy) and other's who may think the INFJ has disclosed very personal info when it's not considered so to the INFJ (as they like plumbing a lot of issues and want to Fe/discuss them, their own if feelings are understood AND accepted /(finally)worked out + that of others).

    So, to input other terms, INFPs are SELF-centred and INFJs are OTHER-centred. Vicky Jo's INFJ or INFP? site explains and while I did learn off of her site and used those two terms, I figured out in greater detail through learning the Cognitive Proceses for INFxs and the two other Types I've learned as I finish learning one and move onto the next (INFJ closure). Now...Do not misconstrue 'self-centred', please please pretty please! It's just to point that INFPs are more aware of their feelings and thoughts whereas INFJs are more aware of other's feelings and thoughts. It has nothing to do with being or acting selfISH! Both INFPs and INFJs or any other Typ can and will be selfish at any point in their lives. Both INFPs and INFJs can and will focus on themselves or on others, it's just what they naturally do which they trust and champion.

  3. #53
    Senior Member sciski's Avatar
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    INFPs will not share that unless that person has been found worthy of that information and it takes time for trust to be deterimed (the motives of others) as they are cautious divulging such intimate things to others, whether or not other's find it not as intimately personal or just 'personal'.
    That's pretty spot on.

    I'm not a completely closed book though - I wear an Fe hat simply to connect on a level that people appreciate and understand.

    I am actually (genuinely) very warm and friendly when you meet me. But it's simply warm... it's not deep, it's not passionate- it's not the stuff that energises me, so I easily run out of puff! Most people I know don't bother digging past that friendly layer to get to the hot coals beneath.

    My ENTJ friend once accused me of being too jokey and happy all the time and told me that I should show more of my sensitive, 'deep' side. But people generally don't seem interested or comfortable when confronted with it. I will test the waters by showing them a little of me... at the first sign of resistance or disinterest from them (Ne informs me well), then I retreat and go back to superficial and nice... it's what they want. I don't do it to deny people, I do it to satisfy people and stop them from feeling uncomfortable. That's pretty Fe, isn't it? Heh. But then you have the Fi influence, which doesn't like being dismissed or rejected... so all the better to go back into hiding!

    But for those who have wanted to get past the layer, and have succeeded in doing so, I'm your greatest friend should you really need me. If you don't need me, I am content to leave you be. That's another difference between Fe and Fi - with regards to others, Fe is proactive about helping, and wants to improve others... Fi is passive until shaken up and called specifically by name. If someone needs a generic helping hand, I'm happy to do it or let others do it... it doesn't make much of a difference to me... but if it's something that only I can do for someone I care about, I will not rest until it's done (though it probably won't be done with as much finesse as a J-type). That's the INFP 'noble knight' speaking - we are only truly mobilised by great deeds. Though domFe types will do it too - but they do it in a more obvious way . domFi types will do it quietly because essentially we do it to satisfy ourselves and for The Greater Good - so it doesn't matter if nobody knows we did it. I've mentioned on another forum that Fi is egotistical. You wouldn't believe how much!

    I think because of that, DD, I didn't get offended at the 'self-centred' comment, though it does usually get associated with selfishness! I knew what you meant... and again, it's spot on. Fi is really bloody self-centred... I have to watch that I don't disappear up my own arse at times... this post is getting pretty close.

    Anyway, insert the usual INFP disclaimer: This is my personal experience, I don't claim to speak for other INFPs, etc etc... stupid Fi.

    Edit:
    I just realised that I completely went off onto my own tangent and didn't really comment on your delineation between INFPs and INFJs.. sorry! But yes, it's the self vs other centralisation - and it comes back down to Fi vs Fe. But because INFJs lead with Ni, they are not quite as effusive as a domFe would be... so it's almost like a quieter Fe, with the intensity of Ni added to it - so it turns out as a quieter, more intellectual passion than ENFJs. Just like ENFPs have a softened Fi because it has had Ne as a diffusing (defusing?) influence upon it. Hence ENFPs seem more open and less intense - because they hide their intensity. INFPs, with leading Fi, are closed and intense until something causes Fi to come out roaring.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciski View Post
    That's pretty spot on.

    I'm not a completely closed book though - I wear an Fe hat simply to connect on a level that people appreciate and understand.
    I'm about to get to that

    I think because of that, DD, I didn't get offended at the 'self-centred' comment, though it does usually get associated with selfishness! I knew what you meant... and again, it's spot on. Fi is really bloody self-centred... I have to watch that I don't disappear up my own arse at times... this post is getting pretty close.
    Thank you for not getting offended! We INFJs really like to make sure we don't step on all of your toes from the right foot and all of your toes from the left foot. In that Order--! (<--partly joking )

    Anyway, insert the usual INFP disclaimer: This is my personal experience, I don't claim to speak for other INFPs, etc etc... stupid Fi.
    Yea, I kept doing that when I started making my first several posts but largely forgot it with this Thread as I became so focused! oiii I'm just dissecting what I want to say and make sure to keep fairness for INFJs as I've learned more about INFPs

    C'mon, INFJs don't know themselves, people! (<---partly joking again )

    Disclaimer: If you can't take it, break it. I'll cherish your funny bone for you I'm gonna poke fun at both my fellow INFJs and my fellow INFPs so forewarned suckas!

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciski View Post
    Edit:
    I just realised that I completely went off onto my own tangent and didn't really comment on your delineation between INFPs and INFJs.. sorry! But yes, it's the self vs other centralisation - and it comes back down to Fi vs Fe. But because INFJs lead with Ni, they are not quite as effusive as a domFe would be... so it's almost like a quieter Fe, with the intensity of Ni added to it - so it turns out as a quieter, more intellectual passion than ENFJs. Just like ENFPs have a softened Fi because it has had Ne as a diffusing (defusing?) influence upon it. Hence ENFPs seem more open and less intense - because they hide their intensity. INFPs, with leading Fi, are closed and intense until something causes Fi to come out roaring.
    No problem. You're lucky I caught the difference in your post when I re-checked it. "Bad Si, bad!!" I can't comment on ENFJs or ENFJs yet as I haven't learned them. I prefer to go Type by Type in an order of my choosing (related to the people in my Life which is sooo INFJ-ey, right? )

    I hope to recall this when I DO get to those Types. I'll at LEAST recall 'someone' wrote in one of my Threads (Si: "Which one?!") and then skimmmmm and miss yours and then skimmmmmm and get lost and sad. By fluke, I'll have found it. ---so yes, this happens more times than I can count to know I have 10 fingers and 9 toes.

    Joking about the toes. Got about 10 of each, I think

  6. #56
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    Default 2nd Chunk to help discern b/w INFP or INFJ

    INFPs look all sugar and chocolatelysweet (Yumm) and are nice and fun to be with "until"--- Until? Oh yes, until! So, wait as I'm gettin' to it!

    INFPs enjoy listening to people or even a stranger (if found interesting) but may or may not comment unless prompted as they go along with the person/s flow (so floaty!). Sometimes, their supposed quietness is misperceived to be shyness and the INFPs don't get a word in b/c the other person has dominated the conversation. Their Ne has been searching at all the possible information from outside and relaying it to their Fi so their Fi can filter it all out within. If they find the person rude, but don't know them well, they may think about it and remain quiet (their Si gets to work on retaining info b/c they suck in a LOT to help them ). They may give up trying to assert themselves around less 'aware' people, when they finally do, as people are so confused about it And others' the ones usually PROMPTING response from the INFP! Don't like what you hear? Don't ask them as they'll tell it like it is! They won't be as 'coy' as the INFJ when dishing it out b/c they wouldn't have stood it as long as an INFJ would. INFPs may dislike it if someone's emotions become so varied as it looks fickle or superficial. Because they're always aware of their own feelings and work a lot to understand + maintain them (no, not be 'emo'! ), someone who is so 'out there' Fe-ing will try to be understood by INFPs but may not be liked (not the person, just the "wild emotions" they are percieving to be exuding towards the INFP). So, when they "try" to be like other people and be a little different and show what they hid away, people don't like it or believe it and so affronted the INFP will go back into showing w/e that person wants or leaving them alone. INFPs don't mind if people direct the conversation (if nice about it) as they'll inform what they want to hear and the person/s can speak about everything and not be 'restricted' to one which is fine for INFPs for the most part. Their Si is their 3rd Cognitive Process so it's not as great as an ISTJ/ISFJ (their 1st CP) but it's a hell of a lot better than an INFJ's which I shall get to. They can also feel hurt by others' good intentions if they feel they've already got a 'handle' on it or if it's an intention meant to 'help' them. It becomes taken as criticism against their character b/c they know themselves and their needs so how could someone else think they could offer better advice? "Impossible! You can't, I can!" I'd also say INFPs are better at detecting subtle clues from people for the most part because they are actively searching to discern/filter the bias and remain quiet (sometimes w/ loved ones, mainly w/ new/fairly new people). Please Remember an evolved INFP will be much better at handling all of the aforesaid. No bitching that INFPs are biased against people (emos can leech off their own made up Type, okay? ). When they're emotionally healthy, I know they aren't swayed against All People.

    INFJs look all sugar and candysweet (I get sick of myself ) and are fun and nice to be with "until"--- Until? Better believe 'until'! So keep waiting as I'm gettin' to it!

    INFJs enjoy listening to others (if found interesting) but the aim is to not only listen but to comment and restrict the pace of convo (err so restricting! ) They want to stop where you're floating to and ask more questions once there is an opening or the person has finally asked INFJs. INFJs then direct the conversation by wanting to know __ + __ +__ and __?-- as they've been waiting as their Ni's 'ideas/visions' have been wanting to respond and flush out! INFJs can get impatient if they can't respond b/c Ni works fast and it can be hard retaining their points or questions (so harrrrd sometimes) INFJs'll recall a few of their questions or ideas and just zoom with them til they recall the others-- if recalled-- Introverted Sensing is their last and Weakest Cognitive Process so they may just forget that brilliant flash of insight (Ni = :steam: lol) unless 'flushed out' or focused clearly on one thought/vision. When we get quiet with to expand our Introverted Intuition after restricting it, Introverted Thinking helps construct a better argument and words for them...(snap us out of a thought, yourself or by (Se) external noise and it's SCREW YOU!!) or written down when it's quiet (Ti's our slave then )---but as INFJs sometimes (erroneously) 'trust' their memory, they then forget it and wish they'd written it down .. Also, if INFJs find a person rude and they don't know them well, they may remain quiet, but they'll likely comment (You kidding me? Of course!)and try to "fix" that rudeness by reproaching the person however "nicely" they think they sound. Or they may offer points to instruct them on how to better look/act/think/come across/listen or w/e it is they think you are lacking, right or WRONG (but uh we're um always right so INFJs don't kill your kin DD ) INFJs can feel hurt if someone "misunderstood" all their good intentions and visions for that person they're trying to "help". It'll be taken as criticism against their character which they fear hearing (No more of your Fe, please!!) as they aim to please other's a lot This is why INFPs are better at pleasing/knowing themselves (SELF) and their closest loved ones whom they've 'observed' for oh so long and are worse with others they don't know (until evolved!). INFJs are better at pleasing/knowing what to do for others (OTHER) because they've observed them for oh so long and can generally please/know what to do for themselves (until evolved!). I'll also say INFJs are worse at taking subtlety from people if not actively searching for it. That's for INFPs as their Communication Style is Informing and they're better at subtlety, giving and receiving, though some people can't pick up the clues. Whereas INFJs Communication Style is Directing and they're better at being (nicely) blunt, giving and receiving, though some people can't stomach them for it. Again, please recall, an evolved INFJ will be much better at handling all aforesaid (including Si MEMORY!) No bitching that INFJs are biased for people (or have crappier memories than INFPs, but INFJs my kin, you know it's true so stop getting angsty as you've already forgotten why I said it ). When they're emotionally healthy, I know they aren't swayed for All People.

  7. #57
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    Default 3rd Chunk (it's dawned on me just how nasty that might sound)

    To carry from the last point as I thought they were too long to keep together:

    Sometimes, both/all Types and all their good points can become a detriment if they aren't in a healthier state of mind or it still occurs even if 'healthy' as we react to initial stress. An INFP is fixated and stuck on Introverted Feeling. An INFJ is fixated and stuck on Introverted Intuition.

    An INFP may not clue in a loved one enough if they feel hurt and are "figuring out" how they feel from their Extroverted Intuition of others and want to proceed. It can be perceived by the other person/s as "not giving me enough". It's just that the INFP needs time. They may be stuck on Extroverted Intuition on trying to 'understand' where you're (Extroverted Feeling/Thinking) coming from for too long, so even though THEY are working the issue out for/with their feelings and what they're seeing/have seen of the person to bridge it all---the other person doesn't get the info in time (INFPs you took too long!) or the "Hold on" from the INFP can frustrate them (depending on the person). INFJs don't like to 'hold on' (unless evolved or in a better emotional state). INFJ Fe is curious to know what you think about them, "Are you feeling slighted by me?" "What did I do? Tell me and I'll solve it with my visions!" INFP FI = :steam: "LEAVE ME ALONE! I WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT ALL, DAMMIT!" Sometimes an INFP will blow up in people's faces when they're personal space is invaded or 'not respected' or they feel not trusted in 'thinking it through' Their LAST and WEAKEST Cognitive Function Introverted Thinking questioned? Do you feel like being slaughtered by a cuddly INFP? Didn't think so....but you should know they'll be reorganizing their Fi to figure out why they became so crazy and feel bad about it. Not sure for how long, though. INFPs do tell me. I can't take a hint (you should know why by now, c'mon! INFJ has when you're informing to quietly or being subtle.)

    An INFJ may, similiarly like an INFP, not disclose [I]their personal feelings[I] enough because they need a lot more time (more than an INFP) to figure it out. They may use Extroverted Feeling to get the other person to disclose their feelings on themselves AND the INFJ so the INFJ can work it out and make them feel better and believe all is okay. This means...they're not coping out! They'd rather not deal with Introverted Feeling. They got you to feel better and they blamed themselves for w/e went wrong, isn't that enough? (no, but we're going to 'think' to 'feel' so anyway ) It's much harder for an INFJ to react on their personal feelings in the moment as they are so desperate to disengage from the environment and people (Se) so they can THINK (Ni, shut up too! You're running in circles! Help, Ti! Make Ni stop running so fast!) and b/c they are so pressed 'to say something' right now 'to do something' right now, they make HORRIBLE decisions! INFJs are long-ranged FORESEERS for a reason and aren't good err with CLOSE foreseeing err (unless healthier) This is also mainly if a conflict has 'just' happened and the INFJ can't "Introvert Intuition" it for the long term as Extraverted Sensing has taken over (Shut Up PEOPLE's Voices!), so they try to Extravert Feeling (however badly) for the short term. And personal conflict! Not objective conflict. INFJs Ni can kill it in a minute to find the solution to your objective needs or even personal feeling needs....as long as it's not against them or a loved one!). People can awaken the slumbering Introverted Feeling which has been black-hole sucking itself with its own vortext just waiting to snap when the INFJ gets under a LOT of stress. Don't fling your Fe at'em if you don't want it flown in your face but a lot stronger. Then they tailspin into a guilt-fest (that's their emo-ing way) and seclude themselves for some time to recover. They may have forgotten the specifics of the event, maybe, and keep chanting "That wasn't me....I don't know why I did that. No, it wasn't me. Who was it? Was I possessed? "

    Remember now, though I've kept saying it in posts prior. Type and Cognitive Processes explain err your type! However, that being said, your personal rearing + circumstances + environments all help to sway you along whatever Healthy........Unhealthy range you are at. And we all dip and sway as Life kicks on our Backs and People kick us in Front and the Environment kicks All Around Us (damn you!). I'm witnessing an ISTP transform from the brash, criticising and slavishly opinionated insensitive person she is and have become her Conscience. JK! She (acutally) blamed me for it but it's through HER own work that she's becoming more aware of people's feelings and that they're thoughts are vaild. Was she always a bitch? NO! But her personal history helped to mold and break and reform her (she won't believe anything so much as affected her...), so we ALLType to Type can vary and change. Cognitive Processes remain the same but our 'access' and receptiveness to ALL of OUR own and that of OTHER'S can become better evolved.

    More joking on INFJ Si, though I'm perfectly serious...You don't know how hard it's been, guys, I type fast but not fast enough for my Ni = on speed!! Then Si = "Whaa, who forgot what, I mean whom?" BAD Si! Si = )

    INFPs can you handle me joking on your Ti, that Demonic Last Cognitive Process of yours?

  8. #58
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Just a few comments....

    Re this:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Griffi97
    It's sweeping statements like these that make me completely uninterested in learning more about the Cognitive Processes. This is way overinterpreting, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition
    What's so sweeping about this?
    and just using this as one of many examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition
    More joking on INFJ Si, though I'm perfectly serious...You don't know how hard it's been, guys, I type fast but not fast enough for my Ni = on speed!! Then Si = "Whaa, who forgot what, I mean whom?" BAD Si! Si = )
    This goes with my other post in this thread, but I think once you get beyond the first couple of cognitive functions for a type, the rest is highly variable by individual. And due to this individual variability, it's almost 'pointless' in my mind to talk about cognitive functions beyond the primary and auxiliary on a group scale - simply because of varying life experiences. You've mentioned the life experience/maturity factor in more than one of your responses, so I know you recognize it! But when you start talking about Si as the last function for INFJ's, and INFJ's are so bad at Si, even if it's half in jest, I think that's when it becomes a sweeping generalization. Just my opinion of course.

    As for Vicki Jo's website, I think it has a LOT of really good information, and I think you've brought up a lot of interesting and relevant discussion points.

    [but as for me...reading Vicki Jo's website about half a year ago just confused me more, and even all of your posts....I can relate to pieces of both INFP and INFJ descriptions for much of everything you've posted! And some of the INFJ stuff you have posted I cannot personally relate to. So frankly I still don't think it is as cut and dry as it might seem]
    Last edited by cascadeco; 02-18-2008 at 01:33 PM.
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  9. #59
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    Overall the two main themes I've experienced in my life when dealing the J's is confusion, and stubbornness.

    The stubbornness part I see in their "Don't tell em, I'll tell you" way of looking and dealing with things.

    The confusion part is what I seem to do to them.

    My brother for example is a strong J, he refuses to accept that there is anything but black or white, and he loves to point out just how good at figuring people he is.

    When it comes to the black and white, he knows theres grey areas in life, he just don't see them nor does he accept it when someone lives their life in that area as being reasonable. It's all true or false, yes or no. The word maybe shouldn't exist as far as he's concerned.

    When it comes to people he'll tell you how you are, and he doesn't like his judgment in that area question. He'll even go as far as twisting what others say or do till it fits that judgment.

    My mothers boyfriend is as my mother likes to point out too the dismay of both of them, a lot like my brother.

    When it comes to me, my brother has admitted to my mother that he can't read me at all, I confuse him when he tries. He'll act like he can tho when he's around me. My mother's boyfriend is afraid of me, he's not afraid of my brother however who is quite vocal and vindictive if you cross him. I can see my brother being afraid of me, as I used to kick the crap outta him regularly when we were younger. However my mother's boyfriend has only seen me angry once in the 6yrs he's been around and when were around each other I've been nothing but calm and friendly towards him.

    I seem to be a confusing enigma to the stubborn J's in my life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Overall the two main themes I've experienced in my life when dealing the J's is confusion, and stubbornness.

    The stubbornness part I see in their "Don't tell em, I'll tell you" way of looking and dealing with things.

    The confusion part is what I seem to do to them.

    My brother for example is a strong J, he refuses to accept that there is anything but black or white, and he loves to point out just how good at figuring people he is.

    When it comes to the black and white, he knows theres grey areas in life, he just don't see them nor does he accept it when someone lives their life in that area as being reasonable. It's all true or false, yes or no. The word maybe shouldn't exist as far as he's concerned.

    I seem to be a confusing enigma to the stubborn J's in my life.
    I quickly want to point out that that's erroneous to say. "Js" are no less "black and white" than "Ps". That's another misconpetion I'd, yes a "J" like "fixed". But I don't want people pigeonholed any more than you do, so what does that say about me as a "J" or any other "xxxJ"? And INFP can be fixated on their beliefs too, the same as an INFJ with their visions, and not allow difference of opinion if they're emotionally unhealthy.

    And you've somewhat mixed the "Don't tell them, I'll tell you". If I look at it from an INFJ/INFP standpoint, it might seem:

    INFJ: "I'll tell you directly" so you better listen (it's for your own good, honest, I'm not being bossy!)
    INFP: "I'll tell you by example" so you better listen (it's for your own good, honest, I'm not being manipulative!)

    Those are with emotionally unhealthy people, mind. So, from that lack of emotional health and under stress an INFJ will revert to telling their way and only their way. YOU don't get say otherwise. An INFP will result to showing by example this is their way of being and only their way of being. YOU don't get to tell me otherwise.

    INFJs, being "Js", may try to focus on a point and steer conversation so they can "fully" get the point/s of what's being said to them then move onto their next question + answer. I doubt that healthy INFJs will become "black/whited" with their ideas for others. INFPs can allow a person to get so longwinded and off point b/c they enjoy hearing all the possibilities and nothing may get found deeper (as in discussion, not 'belief). I doubt healthy INFPs will become so "floaty" that they'll let others runaway with their thoughts and not get anything done.

    Edit: It occurred that your "Don't tell them, I'll tell you." is an example of them not explaining their reasons but just telling a person what to do (such as an unhealthy INFJ would do). I think that's correct, is it? So conversly for an unhealthy INFP would not explain their reasoning but just expect people to 'know' by what they show them (their way of telling).

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