[ENFP] Noboby Can Piss Me Off Quite Like An ENFP

[Thalassa]

And if other people could understand the sentences on their screens, they'd realize when other people were joking...

 

[Lady_X]

too much wine to comprehend so sorry sir.

 

[Thalassa]

 

[A window to the soul]

Umm.

 

[5231311252]

too much wine to comprehend so sorry sir.

Well hell, where is it? I'm going to need it if I'm to keep reading your posts.

 

[Lady_X]

this i understand....garcon???

 

[ThatGirl]

Lol, how did this thread start cracking me up?

 

[Thalassa]

ENFPs are fun! That's why NTs love us!

 

[kyuuei]

For the sake of my further points, I will call this portion ENFP existence.

I don't understand why you're taking these comments and turning them into your example. It's easy to pick and choose.. but here's what's happening:
1. You presented your case
2. I give you my analysis based on the facts you presented
3. You present more facts that were withheld earlier.
4. I assume they're excuses for earlier facts, and so I try to rationalize them in with the earlier case.
5. You give even more details that were totally excluded before, because eventually if you give enough information someone will get tired of arguing with you and just tell you you're right.

All I was doing is giving you what I would see from the teacher, if she was an ENFP at all. It was a very different perspective from what you'd seen.. but you were very defensive about it. I'll leave it alone now, because you presenting more and more evidence to support your initial case is tiring. Have fun winning.

Easy for you to say! It's not your A!

And p.s., bullshit! The teacher assigns the value. She gives however many points she thinks things are worth. That is not some absolute that we can all accept without question. Just because it's expressed as a number does not mean it's an objective fact. It's all very personal -- how the teacher evaluates, what makes her try to assume professional distance when she's asked to change a grade for cause but makes her drop professional distance when she announces she forgot something important to TG as if it is cute, all of that is personal and subjective.

I can be very, very vocal about my grades. But I do not allow a grade to be wrongly graded and let it go for a while, and then complain about it later on again. I say it right then and there, and I do not leave the issue alone until it is resolved one way or another. It is the only way to get it done right in college. Waiting just makes it worse.

If the timestamp was wrong.. why wait until after grades were published to complain *again*? Im sure she said something beforehand.. but she didn't make enough of a fuss to make something happen then to fix it.

All in all.. when I asked TG if she could come up with the 20 points she needed, she couldn't. She could only come up with, at the most, 18. Either way, she fell short.. Like I said before.. asking for 2 or 3 points if you're an outstanding student is sometimes okay to do, depending on the teachers personality (Some may be offended.. others may already grade based on student participation).. Asking a teacher to fix everything to put you up into that area and THEN requesting that just doesn't make any sense to me. For whatever reason, fussing wasn't done when it should have been done. Her requests themselves aren't unreasonable in small chunks.. but all at the end of the year, when grades are official on transcripts and everything, asking her to fix something that won't change her grade entirely is a bit too late.

Nothing is concrete in college, there is only an illusion of it. But knowing how to work that system is what saves you. Asking for it all at the end is useless.

I don't think it's a Te thing. I think TG is just upset she didn't get the grade she wanted. Her arguments really aren't rational, Ti-based, or realistic in this case. I can't imagine asking a teacher to review already-graded work, after grades had been calculated and turned in, based upon the fact that I had issues that prevented me from getting the A I wanted. If she'd had a problem with the way the teacher graded her work, she should have come to her at the time the assignments were handed back. To want to hand in a "representative" piece of work so the teacher might think, "Hey, this is student tried hard and did well on the assignments she wasn't too busy for! I should arbitrarily give her 20 points based upon that fact!" makes no logical sense to me.

I was a student much longer than I've been a teacher, and I'd never have thought of asking any of my teachers to do what she's asking. If she didn't like the teacher's "flaky" ways or method of grading, she had the option of dropping the class. Sometimes you're not going to like your teacher's personality or grading criteria. You kind of vote with your feet in those instances, or accept them and move on.

I've had to drop classes before because teachers were too off. I've had to change professors before.. and I have also had to re-take classes before. You pay for college.. so you should get what you need out of it.

Professors come in all shapes and sizes.. sometimes they're great for students, and sometimes that same professor 'sucks' for another. But that's why there are third-party evaluation websites (I never dream of enrolling in classes without ratemyprofessor.com and I ALWAYS rate my professors when I am done with them.) and people to ask. You can meet with the professor themselves before classes start sometimes, and get to know them.

There are a lot of options to ensure you have good professors.. but even if you do all of that, and they aren't working out for you.. it is your responsibility to drop, change, or stick it out. Because in the end, they are in a different business. They get paid to show up.. they don't pay to show up.

If she's an INTJ, I'll eat my hat, though.

I don't think we ever will.. there are two sides to every story. :3 But totally agreed with this part here.

Just write an angry missive to the head of department and hand deliver it and let him know that if it isn't dealt with satisfactorily then you shall go to his boss and complain.

This was my very first, knee-jerk reaction to what she said when she first posted about her problem in vent.

ENFPs are fun! That's why NTs love us!

 

[ThatGirl]

I don't understand why you're taking these comments and turning them into your example. It's easy to pick and choose.. but here's what's happening:

5. You give even more details that were totally excluded before, because eventually if you give enough information someone will get tired of arguing with you and just tell you you're right.

I'll leave it alone now, because you presenting more and more evidence to support your initial case is tiring. Have fun winning.

ENFP: You're obviously saying that because *insert insanely evil motive or intent*

TG: :O....What?....No. Where did you even get that from. Look..... let me explain it again, maybe in a different way....*insert what is logic and truth*

ENFP: *Changes and suddenly takes a you vs. them stance* Well you are this, or have done this, or said this. I can see where you *insert emotionally motivated factor* so its fine.

ENFP: I am not going to argue with you. *Slams door*

TG: ..... :O *speechless* .....Wow. I should have just nailed their ass the first time they fucked up. Last time I try to reason with an ENFP.

I presented more evidence, because you obviously were not getting the point and seeing it for yourself. My last explanation is completely consistent with my broad points at all times, it is just more detailed in explanation.

I never assume off the bat, that I have to get into all the nitty gritty details. Talk about exhausting if I had to do that all the time for everyone. I assume that people can fill in the blanks themselves by looking at the overall point.

I appreciate your feed back into the ENFP instructor's mind. It seemed inevitable though that if I was frustrated about her interpretation and stance, that I would also be frustrated by yours. Since you are both ENFP, the same issues came into play during both interactions.

This thread was originally about my inability to understand and communicate with ENFPs to the extent, it makes me angy at the type, and I try to avoid them.

Perhaps I shouldn't have posted it here, since, lol it seems sort of counter intuitive to talk about this issue with people I have difficulty conversing with. Sorry about that.


Also,

The thing is, the ENFP behavior is so universal I can predict the exact reactions, conversations, and issues that will come up.

That is why I keep editing the thread. To show that I was correct in my op about what is going on between ENFPs and I. I gave a detailed account of what our interactions are like, and was showing that is exactly what has happened.

 

[highlander]

I wasted a B on a VERY easy class, when that shouldn't have been the case at all.

It sounds like a combination of circumstances together that resulted in this. It is quite possible that you weren't treated fairly here. It also sounds like a crappy teacher. If you want to make a case though, you'd need facts and evidence. The case needs to be objective not subjective. That's why so many people weren't agreeing with you - because you seemed to be viewing it through a subjective lens and didn't appear to have hard facts or evidence. That long explanation you provided helped to provide a great deal of context on what happened.

I had this happen in a college class once (B in an easy/basic course). It came down to one exam where the teacher took off a large number of points on a big problem. I made a stupid mistake so the answer was wrong but he should have taken only a couple of points. His interpretation was that the work I showed indicated that I didn't understand the problem or how to solve it. He was wrong. I tried to talk to him about it and it was like talking to a wall. I was pretty furious about that because I felt it was unfair. I also knew that a lot of the students in the class traded assignments with each other, had prior exams, etc. In other words, they were cheating. Haha - I'm getting mad just thinking about it again. In the big picture, it was of two Bs and didn't really matter though.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure he wasn't an ENFP though . Just a crappy teacher.

 

[Skyward]

Lol at the typing errors.


Okay, this is the typical interaction between myself and an ENFP:

Normal Day....

ENFP starts doing or saying something dumb, I start assessing whether or not it is worth correcting, and decide it is petty.

I keep going about my business, they keep saying or doing the same thing, as confidently and oblivious as ever.

It starts to feel like fingernails on a chalkboard to me, but I let it go...whatever.

Then something changes, and the little thing they were doing or saying before, that wasn't a big deal, suddenly is a bigger deal. That is when the conversation starts.

TG: Lol, I hate to point this out to you but....

ENFP: Lol... No...*smile*

TG: Yes, for these reasons.......See?

ENFP: You're obviously saying that because *insert insanely evil motive or intent*

TG: :O....What?....No. Where did you even get that from. Look..... let me explain it again, maybe in a different way....*insert what is logic and truth*

ENFP: *Changes and suddenly takes a you vs. them stance* Well you are this, or have done this, or said this. I can see where you *insert emotionally motivated factor* so its fine.

TG: ?...No!... I didn't, and besides that isn't the point. The point is *goes back to original point*....and don't say it is fine when the initial issue hasn't even been addressed yet.

ENFP: Wow, I am really surprised by how you're acting.

TG: :O *starts to wonder if ENFP is really that delusional, dumb, or just trying to win* Look it isn't worth it, just forget it, you obviously don't get it.

ENFP: *Repeats dumb thing said,or dumb action, confidently to show me they can do whatever they want*

TG: You're nuts, and wrong, and immature. And wrong! Don't you even care?

ENFP: I am not going to argue with you. *Slams door*

TG: ..... :O *speechless* .....Wow. I should have just nailed their ass the first time they fucked up. Last time I try to reason with an ENFP.

Now, this isn't a specific scenario but outlines pretty decently the path my interactions with ENFPs take. Different levels of intensity of course.

ENTP ENTP ENTP

You arent an INTJ. ENFPs and INTJs at least have a chance of attraction via their mutual Fi. Your description SCREAMS Ti/FI-Te conflict. I have similar problems with my ENFP friend.

 

[ThatGirl]

And what happens when Fi and Fi don't agree on Te, which was brought to attention under Ni, regarding faulty Ne, then pursued?

 

[sculpting]

I presented more evidence, because you obviously were not getting the point and seeing it for yourself. My last explanation is completely consistent with my broad points at all times, it is just more detailed in explanation.

I never assume off the bat, that I have to get into all the nitty gritty details. Talk about exhausting if I had to do that all the time for everyone. I assume that people can fill in the blanks themselves by looking at the overall point.

I appreciate your feed back into the ENFP instructor's mind. It seemed inevitable though that if I was frustrated about her interpretation and stance, that I would also be frustrated by yours. Since you are both ENFP, the same issues came into play during both interactions.

Interestingly, your initial post was extremely emotional. As an ENFP-I will unconsciously treat you as another ENFP. Thus I see a bunch of emo-ie Fi whining-then a bunch of excuses-Te rationalization for Fi whining. However this is my error-as you are actually using Fe to make a plea for change, thus supplementing with more and more Ti information-thus the nitty-gritty- details above. It's an interesting perspective. Again, ENTP-ENFP will very often, almost always end up in confusion.

And what happens when Fi and Fi don't agree on Te, which was brought to attention under Ni, regarding faulty Ne, then pursued?

An INTJ would not typically argue Te with Fi-unless it was a cause exceptionally close to their heart. Like religion or a very particular Fi value they choose to extrovert. Otherwise, If presented with a faulty Te statement, the INTJ would coldly, objectively dismantle it with Te. Most INTJs wouldnt use Fi on coursework or grades...

 

[ThatGirl]

Well, I am not most INTJs...obviously. I am almost positive I have different motivations that most you will encounter.

I didn't see my e-mail as emotional at all, and have previously explained the exact outline I was using when writing it, which right there shows a certain character.

But whatever, you guys want to make this about my type, thats fine. But I refuse to listen to any more inaccurate information on the subject.

Instead of thinking about how one type would typically get along with another, ENFP/ENTP, because that is what your experience tells you is most likely to happen, how about thinking about how it is possible for an INTJ to not think you guys are the greatest, despite what the typologists say about the perfect pairs?

Then we would be getting further.

 

[highlander]

I didn't see my e-mail as emotional at all,

That's quite interesting because I definitely saw a good deal of emotion behind the words, regardless as to whether or not the words used were emotional.

 

[ThatGirl]

That is an interpretation then. If there was any emotion to be seen it would be repressed frustration while trying to sound respectful.

I have this problem all the time. People assume because they feel something from me, that I feel it myself or am operating from that level. Which is not the case. Usually it comes down to projection, as in how you would feel if you were in that situation. I thought I was as factual as I could be without down right attacking.

I also assumed the professor was aware of the history, since she participated in it.


...Ugh, nevermind.

 

[entropie]

I had to explain a computer program today to an enfp. First it was totally taxing for me cause she couldnt stop talking and tried to find out everything by herself but her approach was fundamentally wrong and you could just hope for her doing a lucky guess. After 45 minutes or so she ran out of ideas and I finally had a chance to explain step by step that did work.

Unluckily she was pissed afterwards because she didnt found out herself and I probably explained it with too much arrogance (tho I really didnt, I can watch those things) and she had to call me later telling me that she spoke to the boss and I explained her something wrong but she would know now how its working. I smiled, said alright then and hung up. The thing is what she told me was the complicated way to do a thing, I told her the easy way, but well the boss is an idiot.

I dont know what to do with myself, I am just too smart for the rest of the world

 

[skylights]

hm. i think i understand why the prof incident occurred, at least in part.

the way i see it, is essentially that you (TG) had a logical problem with the prof's grading - and probably a well-founded one, given your explanation of the circumstances - but the language you used in your letter to the prof was quite subjective/emotional (i can go back and point out where i see this if you would like) and i suspect that a combination of that and your prof being (probably strong) Fi caused your professor to address it in subjective terms.

She didn't understand my clear intent and automatically assigned shady motives to my position.

the thing is, any strong Fi type is going to tend to feel emotional subtext in language before analyzing rational connection - and an NF in particular is going to see connotations and concentrate on motivation (not intent - but motivation - subtle but important difference in that you can have good intent but inapplicable motivation). that's kind of the communication problem that occurred, i think, and why you didn't get a response like the ones you think you would have gotten from an NT. the impression i got from your letter is much what the professor reflected - "she wants an A but admits herself that she had a lot of issues." and i don't mean any offense, but having worked as an academic tutor and editor for several years, i didn't really find your letter very clear - so add up all the factors that (1) your emotional language connotes that she ought to give you an A (2) she's a communications prof (3) she's a Fi aux (4) she's an NF (5) you are asking for her to do something that seems like extra even though technically her duty has ended - i think that's why your case was quickly disregarded.

i do see what you mean about the prof not going back and checking herself - and being an ENFP myself i know quite well that we have a tendency to be absent-minded in logical matters and not particularly attentive to detail sometimes. i've had an INFP prof that drove me UP A WALL because he was so inconsistent - loved him in class, but drove me crazy how he randomly cancelled class all the time with no prior notice. and i agree that your teacher has a responsibility to be objective. at the same time, it's the right of the professor to assign a grade to you that they feel is fair.

in response to this situation, i'm with talullah - build a case and take it to the department head or dean for neutral review.

--

anyway, as for dealing with ENFPs - if the pattern is consistent across this case and others, i imagine that same communication issue might be recurring. perhaps ENFPs piss you off in particular because we look to sweeping non-logical patterns - such as motivation - and assess those prior to the rational concerns. i get in a bind like this often with my INTP dad, who does not at all pick up on emotional undertones in conversation, his or the other person's - while i have a very difficult time filtering out broad Feeling implications, whether intended or not.

tried to find out everything by herself but her approach was fundamentally wrong and you could just hope for her doing a lucky guess.

the thing is, you realize, that if she worked on it for long enough she'd get it... 45 minutes is nothing! my dad can't stand this one either. i think it's fun exploring and being challenged like that. just think about how much more you learn when you have to figure it out yourself, instead of listening to someone explain it step by step. i'm sure her calling the boss was a point of pride... gotta knock down the NT arrogance somehow lol ;]

 

[entropie]

Ya ^^ I am a good teacher as long as I am speaking.

Listening is a difficult thing

It's sometimes a thing I hate myself for when I am getting a short temper with people because I have my mind full with work. People dont deserve a treatment like this then, plus I just hate my short tempers. I sometimes wish it would be more easy for people to see when I am overworked, especially for my girlfriend. When I tell her she does notice it but it doesnt feel for me that she does respect it and then I am pissed off by that. We then argue and she is really disrespectful, a thing F-people can be a master in and I need to be the one to bring peace and order into the discussion again. (she wouldnt take the initiative to do so, if not at least 3 days have passed, but I cant be brooding about something for so long, I hate disharmony).

That make me feel that I always have to function and disables me to show any emotion at all, because if I do we'll just argue.

Can you understand that ?