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  1. #121
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    That is an interpretation then. If there was any emotion to be seen it would be repressed frustration while trying to sound respectful.

    I have this problem all the time. People assume because they feel something from me, that I feel it myself or am operating from that level. Which is not the case. Usually it comes down to projection, as in how you would feel if you were in that situation. I thought I was as factual as I could be without down right attacking.
    Your letter did feel like repressed frustration. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Yet, it had elements of personal attack to it as well, and thus was not respectful. Even the first sentence of that letter suggests that you don't see your marks as your responsibility - somehow, it's her fault as the teacher. The problem I think was that your initial approach was not even and concise. ENFP's can handle your emo but won't react as well if you take personal pot shots at their integrity in the process.

    I agree your instructor should have done two things: 1.) if she promised to put a text in the library, should have done so and 2.) checked the time stamps for all assignments and provided evidence back to you. On your part, in order to make a case to a neutral party, you will need to emphasize the objective things that can be proven rather than your subjective opinion that the prof is a "flake". When you battle from the position of trying to malign another's integrity, you already make your case less likely to be heard in a neutral way; worse, it undermines your own integrity. In future, if you send an e-mail or assignment from your phone, copy yourself too to another personal e-mail address in order to have evidence that your assignment was indeed on time.

    And respectfully, TG, I too feel much ENTP vibe from you ... not that I intend to question your own selection of type of course. As an INTJ, an Fi response should have been soothing, at least somewhat appeasing to you, and in your e-mail back to the prof's response, I can see you missed all the Fi messages she sent to you along the way and didn't respond to any of them.

    You will clearly succeed overall because you have a great deal of drive and passion. (< Fi message btw.) Chalk this B+ up to experience.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #122
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    How did you come from repressed frustration and refraining from responsibility to her being entp ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #123
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ lol good question ... the type impression is just one gleaned over time, and kind of affirmed by this thread too. (Not exclusive to this thread though.) It was great to read the letters because it really affirmed how the Fi messages were lost in there ... admittedly, the best person to know TG's type is TG herself.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #124
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Oh you infps, so prone to society's stereotypes you really have no fantasy to recognize potential and to see the big picture .

    I keep telling my infp girl now for 5 years that I am at the deepest heart a good guy and she still doesnt believe me. Just zero fantasy
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #125
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ aww come here, I will give you a big to make it all better! Of course you are a good guy, who would say otherwise?
    -----

    Oh, and I wanted to add: it's "all due respect" not "all do respect". http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/dorespect.html Sorry, couldn't resist the typo moment.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #126
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    I didn't see my e-mail as emotional at all, and have previously explained the exact outline I was using when writing it, which right there shows a certain character.
    i didn't realize oro had responded with very much the same position that i had - sorry guys, i must have accidentally skipped a page in reading the thread - but i felt lots of emotion there too, as highlander also pointed out.

    Hi TG-

    This is a very nice letter and I always welcome letters when someone is concerned about something. Let me reply below in bold. emotional tone - praising, accepting. deferring to you ("let me"). i'm getting rid of the rest of her comments to focus on the tone in what you said, but i just want to point out that she's kind of maintained this friendly emotional tone throughout, even though she is firm about not bending to your requests.

    >>> TG 12/24/10 2:34 PM >>>
    Professor,

    With all do typo :[ respect I very much disagree with your decision to give me a B in your class. I am not going to attempt to go into some sob story about what this semester was like for me reads: this was a very hard semester but I would like to highlight a couple of key points. sounds haughty... as if you're teaching. "key points" as if you have the answers to a problem.

    I feel that I took the time to respond respectfully to all of your questions for every assignment submitted. I did not simply fly kind of emotional - "simply fly". reads as disdain towards implied others who have simply flown. my way through this class, but took the time and effort to come up with what I believed were the most correct answers possible. Your decision to grade my post on the Communicating in Relationships (pertaining to culture) assignment as a 17/35 was surprising to me. I understand this was one of the only assignments where I made personal references to the questions asked, but I felt the examples were relevant for the task given. We were actually asked to use personal references. it sounds like you are blaming her for not following her own grading standards, and for not adhering to her word. That post was also submitted on time, so I don't see lateness as being a factor, and simply do not understand the grade. reads: "i did what i was supposed to. i answered with effort and correctly. i was not late. i don't get it." and that's fine, but it's... well, the way you state this is as if your grades are up for debate.

    The second was the Mid-Term exam which I explained to you was due to my financial hardship. I simply could not afford the book reads: it's not my problem i didn't have the book but I still showed up and thought thoroughly through all of the questions asked. From what I understand, I managed to at least average the class score, while others had the advantage of using the text. "advantage" implying that they had something you deserved but didn't have... that the grounds weren't fair... except, it was your responsibility to get the book. so it comes off as further implication that you deserve the highest grade despite not fulfilling your responsibility to get the book.

    The third point was "was" seems like an odd phrasing to me here. it's like you've already gone through and made this case and decided these points - you're not really aligning yourself with the prof in asking her to reconsider, but instead arguing against her. that the only assignment I did not submit was the Non-Verbal assignment. I tried to explain to you accusatory, somewhat desperate that this assignment was not solely about my own ability to complete it. It required a partner, and time taken out of business hours. First of all sounds snarky/with attitude, I don't have friends I can call favors on. reads: this assignment was a hardship and more than most normal people can handle Most of them are very busy, and I myself, work full time, am a single mother of a four year old boy, and outside of campus class time, usually work on my assignments after 10pm at night. reads: "you're expecting me to do unreasonable things for the course that i don't have time or the ability for"... essentially your professor asked unreasonable things that you just don't have time for because your life is real and hard. more and more this letter is sounding like you expect the course/prof to meet your requirements, instead of vice versa.

    While most people would have tried to bull harsh word their way through the assignment, and some told me they did, I respect my writing, assignments, and professors enough to not submit dishonest work. Had the assignment solely relied on my ability to complete it, the issue would have been different. That shows good character. Classes will always have cheaters. They lose in the long run though. "i am moral, therefore i deserve a better grade. implications that other students are not so moral and yet the prof grades them better - fault of the professor."

    Aside from these three points, I do feel that I attended the class with an above average level of dedication. I took time to learn the material, and produce my best work possible. Aside from my son needing me or being sick, I was in class, and volunteered for almost every class related project. This was due to genuine interest in the class content, and the desire to incorporate the material into my real world experience. i did a good job, except when it was hard to.

    This is the first e-mail I have ever written in regards to my grades, and honestly feel (especially due to the level of work submitted by others in class) that this grade was unjustified. i got a B+ despite not having the textbook, and not always showing up to class, but i don't think it's fair because i put in as much effort as i thought i reasonably could.

    I ask you to respectfully re-review my assignments, and your decisions toward the value they were graded upon. which... she did, as much as it was reasonably convenient to her to do so, much as you attended her class as much as it was reasonably convenient for you to do so.
    ok, so, then she doesn't give you the A; she thinks the B+ is fair. you disagree, (as i understand it) mainly because you think the assessment of your work itself was unfair, but that doesn't really come across in this first letter. on the surface, reading this, it sounds to me like you were very lucky to get a B+ with not always being in attendance (personally, my school was very hard on attendance), without a book, and with getting such a low (objectively, not in comparison with others) score on the midterm. but - if i understand your feelings correctly - these are all things that should be of lesser importance because they are circumstantial, instead of having to do with your work itself - but that's not really clear from your letter. and throughout there was a tone of your grades being up for debate and her having messed up because she didn't give you what you deserved... but she did go check your grade anyway. it just wasn't what you wanted, which was an analysis of the work itself, but, at least to me, that desire is not clear from this request.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    The problem I think was that your initial approach was not even and concise. ENFP's can handle your emo but won't react as well if you take personal pot shots at their integrity in the process.

    I agree your instructor should have done two things: 1.) if she promised to put a text in the library, should have done so and 2.) checked the time stamps for all assignments and provided evidence back to you. On your part, in order to make a case to a neutral party, you will need to emphasize the objective things that can be proven rather than your subjective opinion that the prof is a "flake". When you battle from the position of trying to malign another's integrity, you already make your case less likely to be heard in a neutral way; worse, it undermines your own integrity.
    right, exactly. if i were the prof, and you just emailed me saying how pissed you were about not getting an A, etc., and had been really up front about it, it'd be easier to handle. this was confusing because the frustration was clear, and essentially it came off as you trying to find ways to insult the prof because you didn't get the grades you wanted - instead of taking a position of deference to her and pointing out objective inconsistencies in her grading.

    i also agree with PB in that the prof should have put the text in the library and checked the assignments, archived or not. like i said in my last post, i agree that the prof sounds kinda flaky. and lazy. but getting back to the point of the thread, i think the communication issue here is it's as if you're speaking kind of unclear Logic with a heavy Emotional accent to someone who speaks fluent Emotion, but expecting her to reply in Logic. (which, actually, she did, but it was in response to the Emotional wording, instead of the Logical points.) if that makes sense. i understand why others are saying that you sound Ti, TG - you're coming more from a place of her underlying grading scheme being unfair/shitty, but the way it comes off, at least to my particular brand of logic, is that you're building a case about why she sucks. it sounds ad hoc to suit your grade instead of addressing underlying problems.

    as for dealing with ENFPs, basically it's extremely hard for an ENFP to filter out a very clear emotional current, so in the future you might just want to not worry about restraining it around us. like PB said, it doesn't bother us. but the fact that you can see the highly negative emotion shining through in your wording here makes it really difficult to ignore it - because your motivation (wanting a different grade) is clear. i think what the prof thought is that you were upset about not getting the A, and explaining to you why you didn't get it, even though you were a bright and hard-working student, was what would help you feel okay again. the negative points against her were essentially disregarded because they came off as your reasons why she should change your grade, instead of as things she did that were objectively unfair.

    and of course, i have no way of knowing, but if i were to try to tailor your message to an ENFP, it'd probably go like this:

    dear prof,

    thanks for your course. i really appreciated it, it was interesting and engaging. i apologize that i could not make it all the time because of x, y and z, but nevertheless i feel like i learned so much about (subject).

    i understand this is asking you to go above and beyond, but i was wondering if you would be willing to reconsider the grades you had given me.

    as i had mentioned during the course, i really struggled to get the textbook, and i feel like this had a negative impact on my work that obscured the ability, dedication and interest that i applied. i had very much been hoping that an extra textbook would be available in the library, as you had mentioned at one point, but unfortunately there was never one available.

    i also put what felt to me like a steady amount of effort into assignments, and was surprised when some of the grades were very different between similar papers. upon reviewing the assignments, i did not understand all the grades i received, and i was hoping that you might be willing to reconsider them.

    the assignments i had questions about were:
    #1 (because a, b, c, etc)
    #2
    #3

    to be honest, i have always gotten high marks in the past, and i was disappointed when i saw my grade for this course. i understand that there were circumstantial factors that may have played into my grade, but i was only 20 / 1000 points away from an A, and i just really wanted to check with you to see if there may have been any inconsistencies that could pull my grade up.

    thank you,
    xx
    given, hindsight is 20/20, but the point being that the emotional tone is friendly and deferring, and the request and reasons for it are very clear. i know that it sucks that it's the prof's final decision - i had a shitty prof my final semester who supervised a course (it was a self-guided research course) and gave me a B because i didn't update her on a weekly basis (a personal rule of hers, not a course requirement). i guess i could have taken that to the dean, but had a lot of other stuff going on in my life, and never bothered.

  7. #127
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    she didn't give you what you deserved...
    "she didn't give you what you felt you deserved".

  8. #128
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I feel I deserve some icecream now, smell you later
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #129
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ enjoy your icecream entropie!

    skylights, enjoyed your letter - was going to write one myself as an example, but yours covers most every point. Especially love the dig at the textbook ... you say it without blaming anyone. Wonderful!

    Would only add this to take personal responsibility @ italics: "i understand that there were circumstantial factors that may have played into my grade, and I was responsible for some of these of course, but ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #130
    ThatGirl
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    I want to point out, that even in writing this letter, yes I felt uncomfortable. I have never disputed a grade before, ever.

    Once again, taking such a leap to question a professors decision, my goal was to provide clear data as to the situation.

    Showcasing how I was consistent in putting in my best effort, even despite obvious set backs. That the quality of my work was good, even if it shouldn't have been (not having a text book for the mid term).

    That I am a person of integrity, not just trying to get ahead by whatever means possible. So one cannot claim I am simply asking her to fudge my grade.

    The goal was to produce the idea of WHY my claim against my grade was worth taking another look at. As a teacher, I would never look at someones grade who just said, I disagree. I would just answer, well that sucks.

    I was hoping that in seeing the effort, consistency, and doing generally well despite set backs, it may create some doubt as to why I suddenly received marks so low.

    It makes no sense, that I suddenly would have produced poor work for no reason, when even when there were good reasons, I still did well.

    That doesn't seem off to anyone else.

    Like hmmm that's kind of fishy, that all off a sudden a 35/35 paper writer turns in a 17 point assignment? If there were reasons, like I was flakey, not taking the class seriously, or disregarding my assignments or responsibilities, that would make sense.

    That wasn't the case ever, so that is what I tried to show.

    Could I have worded it better, sure, in hindsight.

    The other point is that when I am that frustrated, and have addressed an issue SEVERAL other times with no, wait, negative results, the LAST thing I am looking for is to be soothed.

    If I wanted to FEEL better about the grade, I would have gone home and licked my own wounds.

    If she had put the effort she put into being soothing, into looking into the content, I wouldn't have gotten even more pissed off.

    As it was my actual concern was being ignored. I could care less how either of us feel about it.

    If you look at my cognitive functions scores posted in the INTJ thread, you will see that I do use higher Ti than Te.

    So if I used weird functions during this interactions, it makes sense.

    I am not an ENTP though.

    Besides, I am sort of sick about debating my type since almost everyone has a different idea of it. It seems like ENTP is the psychosomatic illness of type. If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it must be an ENTP.

    When you put me against real entps like Timeless or Entropy you can see I am nothing like then and obviously lack the Fe.

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