[NF] Desirability of Not Having an Opinion

[nolla]

I got into a heated discussion with a couple of NF friends. I knew they were both into self-improvement, buddhism and stuff like that, so I raised the issue of being opinionated and how it changes the way you perceive the world. My point was that everyone who has extreme opinions about anything is limiting their own perception, and I argued that this is not a special case, but that any opinion will limit the things you will be able to see around you.

One of my friends agreed, the other one disagreed. He thought that life would become meaningless and dull without opinions. We ended up arguing about this for some time, but I don't know if any good points were made anymore, as we got quite drunk at the same time.

Anyhow, what do you think about this? Is lack of opinions important for self-improvement? Do you think your type has anything to do with how you see this?

 

[Oaky]

Indifference... yes, I have often talked about this as a subject inclined towards my liking. I believe I am striving of self-improvement at most times. And as such, indifference is one of those qualities I wish to continue improving myself upon. I do not adhere much to opinion but rather observe others as it may create a much wider span of understanding to continually see other's endless thoughts. Such is the wonder of lacking to give yourself an opinion. A practice I wish not to remove from that which I strive to be.

 

[KDude]

I'm not always one to argue, and I'm all about handling my own affairs rather than getting into people's business as a rule, but being non-opinionated is definitely not desirable. I don't hold that up as an ideal, or care to attain it anytime in the future. At times, it pisses me off if someone can't make a stand on some things. But of course, that's just my opinion.

 

[nolla]

At times, it pisses me off if someone can't make a stand on some things.

Yeah, that's one thing that I haven't figured out... If you have no opinions, does that mean that you are a total pushover? Everything I've read about Buddhist monks seems to contradict this. Maybe there is a difference between spontaneous opinion and a long-term opinion. In a way every human need can be a spontaneous opinion, and every need can become a "chronic" opinion. The difference is that the chronic opinion doesn't come from the organism, it comes from some idea you cling to... You plan to have an opinion, in a way. So, I think situational opinions could be ok, since there is no way getting away from them.

 

[stalemate]

I have no opinion about this topic.

 

[Epiphany]

I am much less opinionated than I used to be, which I think is a good thing, because my opinions weren't founded on certainty of truth, but mere speculation and belief.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I don't think being opinionated and being open minded are mutually exclusive.

 

[Zoom]

It could be difficult for a person to have a strong opinion on nothing... but the willingness to acknowledge that one's opinion is not necessarily the only worth hearing can allow for a more open view, as well as the ability to see and take in more, as arguing one's position can seem to draw a shade over the eyes and ears.

The louder a person speaks, the less likely it can be for them to hear what another is saying... and this applies mentally, as well. Internal preconceptions on a subject, person or idea can certainly affect whether or not one pays attention to new information which perhaps contrasts those beliefs previously and currently held on the matter.

 

[eternal recurrence]

I dont think indifference or getting in other people's business is what this is about.
I could be wrong, but think opinion here means more judgment.

I think the issue is what a person's reaction is when they perceive something. If they are opinionated or ?judgmental? and immediately compartmentalize the thing/situation/cause into their existing mindmap then this must limit self-improvement as most would probably admit would frame of reference can always be improved.

I think the comment about the world being dull without opinions may illustrates that you two were talking about two different things.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

An opinion can be a place-holder conclusion until there is more information. It is possible to have an internally open thought system that never concludes 100%, but maintains a somewhat agnostic view. This is not to say that everything is 50% likely, but that some conclusions may have enough proof to have negligible doubt, while other conclusions are barely hypotheses. Sometimes it is possible to have multiple hypotheses about an idea.

When it comes to the practicality of living, any action requires some degree of conclusion. The difference in open or closed opinion is the way one adapts to new information, even if it is in conflict with previous information.

 

[Thalassa]

If you got into a heated argument about this for a while, you clearly have strong opinions about not having opinions.

 

[nolla]

I think the issue is what a person's reaction is when they perceive something. If they are opinionated or ?judgmental? and immediately compartmentalize the thing/situation/cause into their existing mindmap then this must limit self-improvement as most would probably admit would frame of reference can always be improved.

I think the comment about the world being dull without opinions may illustrates that you two were talking about two different things.

Yeah, that seems about correct. But my idea was that all opinions (whenever you say something is good or bad) limits the perception, and this makes the question so wide that it's hard to say if we were talking about different things.

At some point we got to some kind of common ground, since he took his point of view far enough to consider it an opinion to choose not to starve to death (by making the choice to eat every day). This wasn't exactly what I was going for, since I don't count it as an opinion. I guess from that perspective I couldn't anymore argue my case. I mean, I have to admit that it is an opinion to value life over death.

But I guess my idea would hold up if we make the distinction of spontaneous and long-term opinions. I guess that was the missing link in my logic... He thought about all opinions, while I had already filtered out the spontaneous opinions without even realizing it (which is pretty ironic, actually).

If you got into a heated argument about this for a while, you clearly have strong opinions about not having opinions.

Which was pointed out several times during the discussion... I don't mind being a paradox... It's just an ideal...

 

[sculpting]

if opinions are judgments-even judgments made in the moment about which food to eat when given a selection of foods-well I suppose with each instance of judgment we Si folks may codify our understanding into something more and more concrete-thus limiting our open mindedness.

Wonder what the Ni folks do? If with each instance of judgment they nail down they pick a particular context path as being valid....well i guess that perspective becomes more validated? So that perspective gets used more often? Thus also limiting?

But whoever said above-the part about the louder you speak, the less you can hear-that is totally true.

 

[nolla]

if opinions are judgments-even judgments made in the moment about which food to eat when given a selection of foods-well I suppose with each instance of judgment we Si folks may codify our understanding into something more and more concrete-thus limiting our open mindedness.

Wonder what the Ni folks do? If with each instance of judgment they nail down they pick a particular context path as being valid....well i guess that perspective becomes more validated? So that perspective gets used more often? Thus also limiting?

The opinions I'm trying to describe are somehow more "constructed", they are more thoughts than the immediate choosing. For example, a vegetarian would have a more constructed opinion since there are different components than just the unconscious or semi-conscious choice. They will connect the food they eat to the animal being in pain or possibly to the extinction of the species, in other words they make the choice more abstract than someone who just picks one of the plates because he feels like it.

EDIT: Have to add, however, that it must be pretty quick that the constructed choice turns into a just-feels-like-it choice. I stopped eating red meat because I cooked a lot with my room mate who is almost vegetarian and soon I realized I had stopped buying red meat altogether, even when I wasn't cooking with him.

EDIT no2: Don't know where that leaves me then... If a constructed choice limits perception, and then turns into an unconscious preference, does that mean that the world view is limited permanently after that? So, you would have to find a way to get rid of these perception blocks also, it's not good enough to get rid of the opinions. Or...?

 

[Lauren]

Happy near birthday, Annwn. I like the quote from Thich Nhat Hahn that you have in your signature. I have been the recepient of that and have been grateful.

I had a thought about opinions here but somehow it didn't get posted. I can't assemble it again right now, so may be back later..

 

[eternal recurrence]

The opinions I'm trying to describe are somehow more "constructed", they are more thoughts than the immediate choosing. ...?

I think this is key. Its not about letting go of making the simple choices of everyday life. that seems ridiculous. its about letting go of your interpretations/judgments of everyday life. E.G. if you see <insert something that you have a strong opinion on> what are your thoughts and would letting go of that strong opinion improve yourself?

If a constructed choice limits perception, and then turns into an unconscious preference, does that mean that the world view is limited permanently after that? So, you would have to find a way to get rid of these perception blocks also, it's not good enough to get rid of the opinions. Or...?

i believe that there are ways to slowly work at ridding yourself of perception blocks.
i tend to think it probably produces happier people. does it seem to anyone else that strong opinions (+ or -) can tend to enslave people in irresolvable dramas

 

[nolla]

i believe that there are ways to slowly work at ridding yourself of perception blocks.

I think that might be where the self-awareness comes in play. The hard part is that we would need to be aware most of the time.

i tend to think it probably produces happier people. does it seem to anyone else that strong opinions (+ or -) can tend to enslave people in irresolvable dramas

Yeah, it seems like that's the case. But I think that these people actually want these dramas in a way. Even if they suffer while living through them. Well, think about any environmentalist who really is doing something. They will sacrifice a lot to make it possible. The documentary about the crew of the Rainbow Warrior comes in mind. Most of the activists had obviously had to give up a lot to do what they did, but it wasn't like they were sorry about it. But still, there was this feeling that now that they are getting old, they still were in the drama. It's not like it will ever stop. One of the guys was really angry about not being able to change anything, but I guess he had already given up the idea that change is possible.

It might seem like I am saying "let's do nothing and see where it goes". That is partly true, but there's something else too. If we got rid of the distortions in our perception, I believe we could also achieve more. We could choose our fights better. And I am pretty sure that even if there wasn't any constructed opinions in our heads we could still see that there are different directions things can proceed, and we could choose from them the one that seems better.

 

[Such Irony]

By thinking it's desirable to not have much of an opinion, that is an opinion in itself. To have no opinions at all is for all practical purposes impossible.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

^I think it is called deep meditation, or in some cases sleep, but entirely possible.

 

[Not_Me]

My point was that everyone who has extreme opinions about anything is limiting their own perception, and I argued that this is not a special case, but that any opinion will limit the things you will be able to see around you.

I don't think you can generalize like that. If your bias happens to be in the correct direction, then it will help you get to the truth faster because time is not wasted evaluating useless data. Otherwise, it will slow you down.

There is an optimal balance between being indecisive and being too quick to jump to conclusions. I think it's a simple P vs J thing.