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  1. #21
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I have some quotes by Elie Weisel to contribute:

    "Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies."

    "Indifference, to me, is the epitome of evil."

    "Our obligation is to give meaning to life and in doing so to overcome the passive, indifferent life."

    "We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."


    OK, so the last one is more specific to acts of aggression but I do believe we must take sides. I don't believe you have to be overly opinionated but at least care enough about things to have position on them. I am very much for remaining open-minded but I don't think you have to choose between this and having an opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    An opinion can be a place-holder conclusion until there is more information. It is possible to have an internally open thought system that never concludes 100%, but maintains a somewhat agnostic view. This is not to say that everything is 50% likely, but that some conclusions may have enough proof to have negligible doubt, while other conclusions are barely hypotheses. Sometimes it is possible to have multiple hypotheses about an idea.

    When it comes to the practicality of living, any action requires some degree of conclusion. The difference in open or closed opinion is the way one adapts to new information, even if it is in conflict with previous information.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #22
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    ^ Interesting quotes. I can certainly understand the core of which he speaks from.

  3. #23
    Member eternal recurrence's Avatar
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    nolla - I think 'being aware most of the time' is a state of mind you can train yourself into being.

    Also, I'm not so sure that people want the dramas that they wrap themselves in. There are other explanations. It may be as simple as some being too fearful to leave a group/community/job that is the drama stems from.

    & if our perception was less 'opinionated' (although I would say pre-defined (i.e. we did not categorize everything into our preconceptions) maybe we would be able to 'choose our fights better' or perhaps we be able to see how pointless most of our fights actually are. This does not mean reaching a state of being in which you don't care about environmental damage or war crimes or the like.

    Indifference wasn't meant here I think. I still think judgment is a better word than opinion.
    Also it may seem like a paradox that having no opinions requires an opinion, but i see no problem with that.
    i dont think pure logic can rule us - theres too much complexity for that.

  4. #24
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Who cares what nolla thinks. /irony

    I echo the sentiments of Annwn and Southern Kross.
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  5. #25
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I don't think you can generalize like that. If your bias happens to be in the correct direction, then it will help you get to the truth faster because time is not wasted evaluating useless data. Otherwise, it will slow you down.
    That's a good point. You would still have to be able to see your bias in order to not deviate from the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I have some quotes by Elie Weisel to contribute:

    "Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies."

    "Indifference, to me, is the epitome of evil."

    "Our obligation is to give meaning to life and in doing so to overcome the passive, indifferent life."

    "We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
    I think the passivity these quotes point out is not exactly what I am talking about. Usually it seems like the passive way results in strong opinions for the culture you are in. I would call it something like intellectual laziness. Or it could be that one is just so tired of everything that they don't care anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I do believe we must take sides. I don't believe you have to be overly opinionated but at least care enough about things to have position on them. I am very much for remaining open-minded but I don't think you have to choose between this and having an opinion.
    There is a difference, I don't know how to describe it... but it's like whenever I feel like I have a strong opinion for something and I stop and think it through, the opposite side seems to have almost as strong case as me. There's always a perspective that will cripple my opinion. But still, yes I have my preferences. I have many different pictures of the future, and I know they are not equal.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternal recurrence View Post
    nolla - I think 'being aware most of the time' is a state of mind you can train yourself into being.
    Yeah, I believe there is. I'm working on my peripheral vision right now

    Quote Originally Posted by eternal recurrence View Post
    Also, I'm not so sure that people want the dramas that they wrap themselves in. There are other explanations. It may be as simple as some being too fearful to leave a group/community/job that is the drama stems from.
    Well, the dramas I've had, I've always come to see them as events I wouldn't erase from my history. Of course, while I am in those dramas I wouldn't mind bailing out.

    Quote Originally Posted by eternal recurrence View Post
    & if our perception was less 'opinionated' (although I would say pre-defined (i.e. we did not categorize everything into our preconceptions) maybe we would be able to 'choose our fights better' or perhaps we be able to see how pointless most of our fights actually are. This does not mean reaching a state of being in which you don't care about environmental damage or war crimes or the like.
    Pre-defined is a good word. I guess no matter how far you go in removing the pre-definitions, you will still have the moral code of a human being, since you can't change yourself enough to not care about seeing this kind of basic injustice and evil. And if that wasn't the case, what kind of self-improvement would that be anyways?

    I think there must be a core of morals that is as strong as the animal needs. But these are not chronic opinions, they are automatic. I would even guess that the more you've got of the constructed opinion, the less functional this animal level morality is. You've got it buried under a confusing mess of abstractions.

  6. #26
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I think a goal should be to form an opinion on a universal truth. For example: All perspectives are worthy of note as they uncover a specific part of the whole. If you were to believe in this you would indeed be opinionated and open-minded.

  7. #27
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Sigh. I'd say that I'm an understanding person.. But I'd be a lying if I claimed to be universalist in my outlook. I'm clearly in this contradictory category of Fi:

    Feeling is caught in the approach- avoidance bind between concern both for people and for All Creatures Great and Small, and a psycho-magnetic repulsion from the same.
    --
    As a Dominant Function, Fi leads IFPs to live a life based on empathy and harmony between self and others--and/or to see life as a never-ending conflict between souls that are intrinsically different and opposed.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Sigh. I'd say that I'm an understanding person.. But I'd be a lying if I claimed to be universalist in my outlook. I'm clearly in this contradictory category of Fi:

    Feeling is caught in the approach- avoidance bind between concern both for people and for All Creatures Great and Small, and a psycho-magnetic repulsion from the same.
    --
    As a Dominant Function, Fi leads IFPs to live a life based on empathy and harmony between self and others--and/or to see life as a never-ending conflict between souls that are intrinsically different and opposed.
    I'm not a complete universalist, though I wish to be. It is difficult to avoid the knee-jerk reaction to say something is wrong or right. I don't think the immediate reaction is unavoidable, but I do think that after the reaction it is possible to step back and then examine. We are human and instincts will overcome intellect very often. I think the best that can be done is to minimize the time between the immediate reaction and analyzing another persons opinions. As for either the world being seen as opposed and harmonic at the same time, I think anyone who stands back even for an instant to look at why people react they way they do they could see this, but perhaps it is worse for someone with dom. Fi.

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