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Thread: Presumptuous Fe

  1. #21
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    Going off what fidelia said...

    Non-Fe-users, if an NFJ is projecting on you, make them understand. NFJs HATE not being able to understand you. Give them something to think about, and then give them TIME TO DIGEST IT. Ni is ten steps ahead of itself, so when new information comes into play, the NJ has to alter their entire opinion. If the NFJ is nice and mature enough, they'll adjust their behavior accordingly.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Excellent point - we do prefer to go on accurate information. What we can't stand is NO information.

    I liked the points that umlauu made several posts ago.
    I can really see this with my ENFJ friend (who is also a bandmate). She can't STAND not to be communicated with, and when you don't communicate with her, she will a) take it as a sign of disrespect or b) draw her own conclusions.

    I'm lucky enough to have realized this right off the bat, so I'll just say what's on my mind--sometimes in a more blunt fashion than I would with anyone else. She can handle it. So it's kind of freeing. Another friend of ours, an ENTP, has a tough time getting on with her because their communication styles are sooooo different. They end up misreading each other tons. I feel like an interpreter with the two of them. ENTP guy defaults to pouty passive-aggression and ENFJ chick defaults to actual aggression when they have a disagreement, b/c it drives her nuts not to be addressed.
    Something Witty

  2. #22
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm not really sure how to get around this one. I was surprised at first even to realize that it doesn't bother a lot of people not to be communicated with! I take any criticism or concerns from another person really seriously and I also don't rock the boat unless I have to. Therefore when it is ignored, or when I'm not given a course of action that can improve a difficult situation, my Ni goes crazy and I'll pick the most likely of the possible motivating factors that I can see. I would prefer to know something even if it was bad than to be left guessing about where I'm at with someone.

  3. #23
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I'm trying to think what I do. I think I can (usually, hopefully) pick up vibes when someone is upset with me, so I gently or casually feel them out to determine if they're just generally upset, or upset at something I did or said. I will say, though, if I feel like I'm always walking around eggshells around a person, that person doesn't stay in my inner circle very long. It's far too stressful to constantly be guessing and to never be given the benefit of the doubt. I'm not a masochist. I think my saving grace sometimes is my absolute hatred of feeling guilt and anxiety, so I don't invite it to hang around if I'm not reasonably sure I should feel that way.
    Something Witty

  4. #24
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I'm trying to think what I do. I think I can (usually, hopefully) pick up vibes when someone is upset with me, so I gently or casually feel them out to determine if they're just generally upset, or upset at something I did or said. I will say, though, if I feel like I'm always walking around eggshells around a person, that person doesn't stay in my inner circle very long. It's far too stressful to constantly be guessing and to never be given the benefit of the doubt. I'm not a masochist. I think my saving grace sometimes is my absolute hatred of feeling guilt and anxiety, so I don't invite it to hang around if I'm not reasonably sure I should feel that way.
    ^^This sensitivity has caused issues for me, especially with tert Fe users. ENFPs can totally be emotionally labile so the EXTPs see the Fi fluctuations leak out-even when I try and hide it-and they will shy away. They LOVE the happy Fi, but even a hint of sad Fi sends them running. I guess when emo, I typically need to regress into myself and analyze-or I may emo-explode. So I retreat. However i look and act mopey. My ENTP best friend understands this and tells me to quit being a whiny Fi user . However another ENTP man I am friends with stopped by on Friday and said "Is everything okay between us?" I explained I was being self centered and moody and promised that if there was even an issue I would be very direct and let him know. However as a result of this confusion, I find I do not try and establish close interactions with ESTPs. There is just too much confusion, even though they are good folks.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    However as a result of this confusion, I find I do not try and establish close interactions with ESTPs. There is just too much confusion, even though they are good folks.
    In my limited experience with XSTPs, I agree. In my marriage to an ISTP, I think confusion based on our communication styles caused huge gaps in understanding one another. He's a very good person and I like and care for him, but living with him was very difficult because of said communication styles.
    Last edited by Bellflower; 12-27-2010 at 02:18 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren View Post
    In my limited experience with XSTPs, I agree. In my marriage to an ISTP, I think confusion based on our communication styles caused huge gaps in understanding one another. He's a very good person and I like and care for him, but living with him was very difficult because of said communication styles.
    I was married to an ISTP for a quite a few years. As you say, my ISTP was a great guy, but the few times we argued it would be because of a knew jerk Fe reaction on his part. In particular, he would take my sharing of a personal Fi value as a condemnation of others around us-I suppose he heard me trying to tell him what he should be feeling, not me simply sharing. I would respond badly and feel controlled and it would spiral downhill.

    The EXTPs are much harder. They are so very good at picking up on subtle nuances and facial expressions, that they cant help but see if something is bothering me. Since they really shy away from others who are emo-volatile-they will shy away when they sense the emotional inconsistency. I really like some of these folks but I try and keep them at arms lengths so I dont fall prey to sharing the more authentic side of myself that will freak them out. I feel badly that I can cause them stress, so it is almost like I have pushed them away as to not stress them out so much.

  7. #27
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    Thought dump.

    The judgmentalness of Fe users is not because we're totally evil demons out to condemn you. If we draw conclusions about you, then we can carry out a plan of action. If we don't conclude anything, then we can't do anything to help you. So, we keep a guide book in our heads, and if you display that behavior/say those words, then we carry out that plan of action. We're trying to help YOU here. Fe can be very pragmatic and nurturing when healthy.

    Also, I don't understand people in this subforum saying Fe users leave people out all the time...I don't see how it correlates with Fe. F types in general are sensitive to outcasts. As well as the downtrodden.

  8. #28
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    presumptuousness, in general, is a problem of connecting stimuli and goals in the world to your own internal framework that helps you understand.

    Fi users can project their own feelings into a person, based on their huge Fi framework, as they subjectively imagine, from the interior, what the other person's state of being, as umlau said, might be. that can be incredibly wrong. but sometimes it is extremely grounding, comforting, understanding, and accepting. depends whether you agree or disagree, i guess', in the particular context of the particular situation.

    Fe users watch the exterior signs and the langauge o affect, the social grammar, and the cues of INTENTION to reconstruct a sense of the context of the scene itself. we're relying on our ability to map (Ni types) out the various constraints and prioritize them into a basic topology. we then guess the intention, much like umlau said. we can and do get this horribly wrong. however, just because we are seeing different forces operating than the Fi user doesn't mean that they alone have privilege to understand the situation. we may not get their feeling framework, but to say that we don't understand huge aspects of the situation is also similarly bullshit. yes, you have your own personal judgments, case histories, and inflected personal truths that give you unique shades. but there's a lot of consistency in life. this is where we get to the difference between left-brained and right-brained. this aspect of consistency. and this is why it's not accurate or even sane to bemoan the whole function or to say it's presumptuous. there's always a negotiation process. seymour's post really brilliantly brings this to light. the way an Fe user wants to help and the way the NATURAL TENDENCY of the person is to privilege the first function and react strongly when it is rejected. i had a class where my teacher was an istp who hated the fluidity, amorphousness, and lack of linear development of Ni. of course we battled. but finding a way to think with more than just the single function is a necessary step to development of consciousness. being able to integrate more from your second and third functions, while being able to at least moderately emulate other functions in order to get a sense of how the rest of the world's mind works, and most of all, to effectively communicate!!!

    and yes, left-brained people are more broadcasting, shared social forms and representations, stereotypical (relying on shared symbols), language and culture based, and right brained people are more experientially driven, episodic memory, personal pragmatic reasoning, spatially aware, more in the moment, more focused on the difference and uniqueness of each experience. this makes right brained people more resistant to those shared understandings and more focused on their own unique experience/story.

    if your long-term planning pre-frontal cortex executive function doesn't learn to integrate at least a bit of the non-dominant hemisphere into your CONSCIOUS reasoning process, you won't be a very good person. women supposedly have 40% more bandwidth at the corpus collosum between hemispheres. they usually develop earlier, whereas men's prefrontal cortext often doesn't fully come online until the late 20s. i know that when i have no access to interiors, i'm pretty shitty, and i don't like my life nearly as much. when i do, the world doesn't distort so wildly, and i have a story of my own to keep me going and give me greater resistant to both the climate and weather fluctuations of language, culture, social group, and specific scene.

  9. #29
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    presumptuousness, in general, is a problem of connecting stimuli and goals in the world to your own internal framework that helps you understand.

    Fi users can project their own feelings into a person, based on their huge Fi framework, as they subjectively imagine, from the interior, what the other person's state of being, as umlau said, might be. that can be incredibly wrong. but sometimes it is extremely grounding, comforting, understanding, and accepting. depends whether you agree or disagree, i guess', in the particular context of the particular situation.
    So last year in the presumptous Fi thread- the lesson I learned as an Fi user was that even if I thought i saw an Fe user-dom, aux, tert or inf-feeling a certain way, rather than assume I was correct, I need to stop and realize I could be heavily misunderstanding them. Fi and Fe speak different languages and it is a character flaw on my part to deny they Fe user the claim that Fi users dont know what they feel. I may gain valuable information-but I have to stop and consider the information in light of the language barrier so to speak-admit I may be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    Fe users watch the exterior signs and the langauge o affect, the social grammar, and the cues of INTENTION to reconstruct a sense of the context of the scene itself. we're relying on our ability to map (Ni types) out the various constraints and prioritize them into a basic topology. we then guess the intention, much like umlau said.
    Fe is utterly amazing. Like some sort of super power, from my perspective-but a few requests:

    1) Fe users please do be confused when we cant replicate this. Because we dont use Fe. It isnt "obvious" and we arent "rude", we just communicate differently and have a different worldview.

    2) Admit the legitimacy of alternate worldviews as state as done. Recognize and convey to us know that while we may never agree-we still are not morally flawed or broken because we see the world differently.

    3) Take a moment between perceiving what we say or do-and pause-and recognize there is a high certainty that you will misread what we said and attribute motives we never had. Of course you dont mean to do this, your intents are almost always well founded-but learn to pause as the Fi users learned to pause last year.

    4) recognize that what feels to be common sense is Fe working with your perceiving functions-thus "everybody knows this"=FAIL.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    we can and do get this horribly wrong. however, just because we are seeing different forces operating than the Fi user doesn't mean that they alone have privilege to understand the situation. we may not get their feeling framework, but to say that we don't understand huge aspects of the situation is also similarly bullshit. yes, you have your own personal judgments, case histories, and inflected personal truths that give you unique shades. but there's a lot of consistency in life. this is where we get to the difference between left-brained and right-brained. this aspect of consistency. and this is why it's not accurate or even sane to bemoan the whole function or to say it's presumptuous. there's always a negotiation process.
    Ah now this is where the magic can happen yippie, yippie, yippie!!!!! You guys can totally see stuff we cant see, just as we can see stuff you cant see-once that TRUTH is recognized then by sharing that information everyone becomes more wise. It takes trust and, well I wouldnt call it negotiation as neither view is REALITY, but rather perspectives of REALITY with differing levels of applicability depending upon the situation-thus the combination of both views can be amazingly insightful.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    seymour's post really brilliantly brings this to light. the way an Fe user wants to help and the way the NATURAL TENDENCY of the person is to privilege the first function and react strongly when it is rejected. i had a class where my teacher was an istp who hated the fluidity, amorphousness, and lack of linear development of Ni. of course we battled. but finding a way to think with more than just the single function is a necessary step to development of consciousness. being able to integrate more from your second and third functions, while being able to at least moderately emulate other functions in order to get a sense of how the rest of the world's mind works, and most of all, to effectively communicate!!!
    I love how you describe "emulation" of functions. I get this and understand the value of this in the world-especially with respect to communication where I have seen it pop up the most. The Te dom/auxs do an awesome job of emulating communication across this barrier because a baby Te dom is kinda...abrupt, so they learn to be nice growing up. For me, it takes quite a bit more effort to systemize the communication into a set of Te rules to follow-but there is a ton of value in building a system like this.

    As always a beautiful post-and the tiltle of prsumptous was meant to provoke a tiny bit o' butthurt as that is exactly what the Fi users felt about the "presmptous Fi" title.

    EDIT_ i realize the above post comes across as generalized and even rude. It isnt meant to be so, so please use caution before reading in intent that is not implied. It is safest to assume the only thing meant to be conveyed is exactly what is written. It also fails to recognize that each person is unique, and thus some of the ideas or suggestions may seem redundant or things that have been realized and addressed long ago through hard work and understanding of others. they are generic and context independent and not aimed at particular person-but are the result of many months of observation and interactions. The post may seem bossy and demanding, they are boundaries, but arent meant to be hurtful, just are boundaries seen crossed many many times. My apologies if they are offensive to anyone, but there is value in stating the ideas openly.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in
    and this is why it's not accurate or even sane to bemoan the whole function or to say it's presumptuous.
    I think the point was to parallel the "presumptuous Fi" thread, though. Not just for the lulz.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas
    Fe is amazing. Like some sort of super power.
    A baby Te dom is kinda...abrupt, so they learn to be nice growing up.
    LOL Orobas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas
    It takes trust and, well I wouldnt call it negotiation as neither view is REALITY, but rather perspectives of REALITY with differing levels of applicability depending upon the situation.
    I hate feeling constrained by only being able to make a guess on what I know. I want to be psychic!

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