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Thread: Presumptuous Fe

  1. #11
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Either way, once again, it only ‘works’ on me if it makes sense to me- if the motivation/intention template someone is trying to place on me doesn’t make as much sense to me as my own understanding of my motivation/intention, then I reject it. In the end, it’s just someone else’s opinion.
    What happens if it doesn't make sense to you, but in the end it is found to be true?

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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'd like to just note that rarely do I initially ascribe a motive to someone's behaviour if I find their behaviour incomprehensible - I do some digging first and I also review my past post-it notes. However, I've found in some cases (perhaps due to communication differences) that no matter how hard I seek out information from the other person that would give me insight into their thought process or some context for their behaviour, I can't get any feedback. Those are the cases in which I tend to project most. It's frustrating not being able to be given anything to work with. I keep turning it over and over in my mind if it's someone that impacts me or that matters to me. If it is not, then I tend to be more dismissive than I would normally be of someone.

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    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    To refine the OP's original statements, I would suggest that:

    Fe tends to ascribe purpose to others' emotional expression.
    Fi tends to ascribe a state of being to others' emotional expression.

    This is common projection. Thus these corollaries would also hold true:
    Fe tends to purposefully express emotions, always considering the effect of such expression upon the world.
    Fi tends to express one's current state of being, often without regard to the effect such expression has on others.

  4. #14
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    But I have noticed... and would love to hear some Fe user comments on this... that Fe users who don't have an important Fi user relationship in their life will tend more in the direction that Z Buck McFate so aptly described above. In other words, Fe unchecked by Fi input is more want to go on Fe auto-pilot.
    This is curious to me. I don’t really have an important Fi user relationship in my life, I’m not sure how the dreaded Fe dark side needs it to escape auto-pilot thinking. I consistently test higher on Fi than Fe in cognitive tests though, so there’s enough of something similar in me to make it a moot point- whether it’s Fe + Ti, or Fi itself, always turns into a silly and somewhat nonsensical debate. I’m inclined to simply see it as taking responsibility for our own perceptions.

    I think what it boils down to is that that Fe’ers who pay attention to their own motives and intentions have less of a problem with realizing the extent to which the motives and intentions which they ‘perceive’ in others might actually be their own. I can’t speak for Fe + Si, but Fe + Ni has a tendency to make all incoming information about other people implode with possibilities as it enters our head. We don’t just see “friend stops to visit with cupcake”; we see “friend stops to visit with cupcake + possible motives based on past experience of friend + possible motives based on our own motives in past when visiting friend with cupcake.” Fe’ers who don’t stop to recognize this implosion as part of their perception seem to fall into the one-size-fits-all, my-own-experience-of-the-world-is-enough-to-reliably-understand-everyone Fe auto-pilot. They make the instant connections of motives/intentions, but fail to realize how they came to the conclusion that they did.



    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    So back to my question / observation... it seems to me that some Fe users have a tendency to create a safe little world that's filled with other Fe users; and in which no one challenges the Fe assumptions all the people in this little world share among themselves. I can get along famously with such Fe users UNTIL my Fi has the audacity to challenge some of the Fe core assumptions going on. And, boy howdy... when I do... I am cast in one of a very predictable set of roles:
    • She's well-intentioned but misguided. Poor thing!
    • She's crazy so it's best to ignore her.
    • She's misinformed and must be educated on the "right" response.
    • She's rude and stirring up trouble needlessly.

    I'll give you an example:

    I'm involved in a lot of committee / volunteer work. The mover and shaker set is a very finite / known set in my medium-sized city. Some of the Fe users that I interact with keep choosing the same people over and over and over and over for [insert committee role / nomination / performance / etc. here]. When I have suggested that perhaps we don't pick the known quantities and try to find some fresh talent for [insert committee role / nomination / performance / etc. here].... Well all hell breaks loose. I make the suggestion with the skill of an experienced politician... and yet, this particular set of the Fe-users (who are all friends in private life and run in the same social circle) are appalled that I would even hint at not supporting the known-quantity.

    This baffles me because these particular Fe-users seem to cling to their position beyond reason. The other day, I said exasperatedly to my Fi-user friend, "Jeez Louise. Those people are in serious need of some Fi. It feels to me like their Fe has been unchecked by any Fi for so long that they have forgotten that what seems normal to them is just their Fe assumptions... unchallenged for so long that they mistakenly believe them to be immutable truths. Yuck!"

    I'd love to hear thoughts on this... and how to reach an Fe user who is in this place.
    I’m inclined to think this kind of thing is more about Pi/Pe than it is about Fi/Fe. It really drives me crazy sometimes when it seems like someone wants to change something around me for the sake of change- which is an assumption I might make if the person is apt to suggesting change often without a strong argument for why they think it should be changed.

    Something tells me that Pe types often feel the benefits of a change are obvious in a way that they aren’t to Pi types, making us seem like unreasonable stick-in-the-muds. Just like Pi has implosions of internal possibilities- Pe types (maybe especially Ne types) can have implosions of external possibilities. So it might seem like we're passing unreasonable judgment on someone for 'going against Fe values', I guess, when really it's about us not being able to relate because it's our blind spot. Unnecessary change = crazy talk; not because it goes against 'Fe values', but because it doesn't make sense to us as readily as it does to you.

    This is me theorizing here^, it might be half-baked.

    So I agree with what Tiltyred wrote- campaign on the newbie’s behalf- taking into account that you might be dealing with people who need the entirety of ‘why’ change could be beneficial put on the table, spread out before them, every single thing you can think of (which you might feel should be obvious). If you stick to one single suggestion at a time long enough, they might be willing to give it a try- and if THAT goes well, they’ll be more open to listening to suggestions for change about other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I asked my entp about motives as well-She said very much what Fid and you are saying-that Fi and Te users will do something that seems to make no sense. She projects her Ti onto the situation (since the gut assumption/projection would be that everybody uses Ti) and then since it makes no sense tries to use Fe to identify a motive-which ends up incorrect. (I could have introduced error in what she was trying to convey) She said it was much more terryifing once she understood we just have NO Ti. She says we just DO things-meaning FPs and TJs across the board. She says this is very scary to her. Hehehe..



    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    What happens if it doesn't make sense to you, but in the end it is found to be true?
    I don’t really understand, you mean if it initially doesn’t make sense- but then makes sense later on? Only speaking for myself here- the only way I can see finding something to be ‘true’ in the end is if it eventually makes sense to me.

    There are plenty of situations in which- as Fid just brought up- some experience I have of another person never ends up ‘making sense’ in a way that I feel comfortable passing any kind of judgment on, in which I have no clue what to believe about the other person’s judgment. I’ll loop about it until the looping becomes a distraction, at which point I’ll have to let it go as a matter of necessity. I may perceive the other’s position as *seeming* untrue, but I won’t completely dismiss the possibility that I’m just not seeing the truth in it.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #15
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'd like to just note that rarely do I initially ascribe a motive to someone's behaviour if I find their behaviour incomprehensible - I do some digging first and I also review my past post-it notes. However, I've found in some cases (perhaps due to communication differences) that no matter how hard I seek out information from the other person that would give me insight into their thought process or some context for their behaviour, I can't get any feedback. Those are the cases in which I tend to project most. It's frustrating not being able to be given anything to work with. I keep turning it over and over in my mind if it's someone that impacts me or that matters to me. If it is not, then I tend to be more dismissive than I would normally be of someone.
    I can relate to this. I tend to get a sense of so many possible motivations that it's hard to guess at the right one without more information. When in doubt I try to assume one of the better motivations because it is a better mistake. If the behavior is problematic you can solve the problem without judging the motivation. That's why it is easier to hold off on the conclusions about the motivation. In some cases it is just something that cannot be known.
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  6. #16
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’m inclined to think this kind of thing is more about Pi/Pe than it is about Fi/Fe. It really drives me crazy sometimes when it seems like someone wants to change something around me for the sake of change- which is an assumption I might make if the person is apt to suggesting change often without a strong argument for why they think it should be changed.

    Something tells me that Pe types often feel the benefits of a change are obvious in a way that they aren’t to Pi types, making us seem like unreasonable stick-in-the-muds. Just like Pi has implosions of internal possibilities- Pe types (maybe especially Ne types) can have implosions of external possibilities. So it might seem like we're passing unreasonable judgment on someone for 'going against Fe values', I guess, when really it's about us not being able to relate because it's our blind spot. Unnecessary change = crazy talk; not because it goes against 'Fe values', but because it doesn't make sense to us as readily as it does to you.



    This is me theorizing here^, it might be half-baked.
    Actually, that's a really interesting thought. It does make sense that those with Ni (in particular) are able to adjust their perspective to see the maximum good and maximum utility in the current system (be it Fe or Te). In a sense, that's going to make them hyper-aware of the cost of changing the system, because they've already become habituated to maximizing it's use and effectiveness.

    Ne types, conversely, see the external potential but with the current reality keeping that (Ji-tuned) vision of potential from being realized. Ne-er's Ji is less amenable to external adjustment, and so they tend to see the gap between the imperfections their Ji sees in current reality, and all the possible improvements.

    There's a similar dynamic with Si/Je vs Se/Ji... one being far more investing in maintaining the current external structures than another.

    Still, it does make me wonder where that J sense of inevitability and time-awareness comes from. Sometimes I feel like that perceivers feel that each time is unique, and things can always be changed and optimized as you go. This leads us to a certain ahistorical and time-unaware perspective. This time is always unique, and with sufficient effort (no matter what the calendar says) things can always turn out better.

    Also, I have been struck in years past at how my good INFJ friend would respond when when I described some personal problem ("I wish I had more local friends"). He almost always responded with some way to take advantage of existing social structures ("Well, you liking doing <activity>, why don't you join an <activity> club/group?").

    This always rubbed me the wrong way, because as an INFP I wanted to solve the problem internally first (by working on what was keeping from maintaining friendships, for example) before applying external solutions. Of course. the right answer varies, and INFPs can definitely get caught in the trap of ignoring simple external solutions while focusing ever more internally to "fix" something that isn't the real problem. Still, it's been helpful understanding the difference in perspective, because it makes me more tolerant of his suggestions and more aware of my own blind spots.

    I think it also helps to keep in mind that Je-ers tend to see the existing systems, in part, as tools. Just because you use a tool doesn't mean you necessarily buy into its value system. The tools you use are selected from the ones that are available. If everyone around you only speaks English (or whatever language), refusing to speak English (or whatever) doesn't make you moral, it makes you ineffective at communication.
    Last edited by Seymour; 12-16-2010 at 06:02 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I think they notice certain motives and intentions and attach them to certain behaviors (because perception is directed inward- it’s what we see), and it just becomes an auto-pilot type of assumption that they go together. Then they fail to notice that the motives and intentions they ‘perceive’ are their own because they haven’t spent time reflecting on/taking responsibility for their own motives, personal reactions and/or perceptions (they haven’t spent time separating their own motives, personal reactions and perceptions from the simple condition of being human- and so assume the motives, etc, are universal and inherent). The connection is ‘so clear’ to them, they feel like someone is treating them like they are stupid for insisting it isn’t true.
    I totally agree. I have a hard time seperating my own feelings from someone else's. It's not that I'm selfish. It's that I take on someone else's feelings, especially their pain, and feel intensely for them. And that leads to assuming I know what they're thinking/how they'll react. I'm not mean...I just don't have emotional boundaries yet.

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    Going off what fidelia said...

    Non-Fe-users, if an NFJ is projecting on you, make them understand. NFJs HATE not being able to understand you. Give them something to think about, and then give them TIME TO DIGEST IT. Ni is ten steps ahead of itself, so when new information comes into play, the NJ has to alter their entire opinion. If the NFJ is nice and mature enough, they'll adjust their behavior accordingly.

  9. #19
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Excellent point - we do prefer to go on accurate information. What we can't stand is NO information.

    I liked the points that umlauu made several posts ago.

  10. #20
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    To refine the OP's original statements, I would suggest that:

    Fe tends to ascribe purpose to others' emotional expression.
    Fi tends to ascribe a state of being to others' emotional expression.

    This is common projection. Thus these corollaries would also hold true:
    Fe tends to purposefully express emotions, always considering the effect of such expression upon the world.
    Fi tends to express one's current state of being, often without regard to the effect such expression has on others.
    I know this holds true for myself. I'm definitely purposeful in pretty much everything that I do. So yes, when it comes to expression of myself, I absolutely take into account how that will impact the other person, the likely ways they will react to it (repercussions that will occur, not only immediately but in the nature of the relationship and our interaction down the road), etc. I do think though that this general lack of spontaneity and inability in being 'ok' with showing my current state of being can be detrimental to certain relationships at times, so there's room for growth for me there.
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