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  1. #31
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Or don't see the need to at least indicate they're making a sacrifice. Because often it turns out not to have been necessary at all.

  2. #32
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I've found that if there is no clear decision being made and I really don't care, then I will narrow down the option (or have the other person do it) to two or three options. If they still won't pick, then I either do, or just flip a coin.

  3. #33
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Yeah I have real problems asserting myself because I (condescendingly) think I can handle compromise better than others. I pay more attention to keeping the outer peace than my inner peace.

    But yeah, it's a problem.

  4. #34
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    I care very much about keeping the outer peace and learned, from a very early age, that I had to take care of my own needs, though I literally could not have defined what those were. I didn't know and even today, if someone asks me, I have a hard time knowing what those needs are or if I know, expressing them. I learned early on to disappear within my family so that I could help them if I could. There was so much hurt that needed mending and I was (and still am) the optimistic one, the cup half full person. I feel that most people feel lost and if I can help them feel better or give them something they want (and I don't care about what is desired either way) than I will give them that. However, I do have some needs (for a person to be honest, loyal, if they are in my inner circle) and to hear me when I say what matters to me. To not judge. Not expressing those needs that I do have, though, has caused me problems. Because whether or not I say that I have them, I do have them, and they will surface.

    About nature: John Muir said: "By going out I found I was really going in." That's what it is for me. To be in wilderness and know everything is taking care of itself in its own unselfconscious way allows a person to have compassion, I think, for themselves and each other.

  5. #35
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Functionwise, I'm an INTP, so I'm an Fe user as well but for me its in the inferior position. After reading this thread, I kind of wonder if I'm not really an FJ type because I relate to much of what you say. Of the four FJ types, ISFJ would be the most likely. I'm definitely introverted, so ESFJ and ENFJ are out. I have good to excellent but only average usage of Ni according to the functions test. So that makes ISFJ most likely.

    Strangely enough, I identify with a good part of the ISFJ profile. Maybe its just this whole Ti/Si loop thing. However, I have much stronger Ne than would be expected for an ISFJ. Also, I show 'limited' use of Fe on the functions test. An ISFJ should have stronger Fe than that. I think alot of those Fe questions were especially geared towards dominant Fe types. For example, I don't relate to engaging in hosting and caretaking. As an introvert whose rather detached, I rarely get asked to play that role. I'm not particularly interested in playing that role anyway. I don't want that sort of responsibility and prefer to act more independent of others. I'm content to let someone else do it.

    Like ISFJs, I frequently put others' needs ahead of my own and can be very reliable. I can be quite detail oriented if know what details to focus on. I'm loyal but probably not loyal to a fault like ISFJs are. I am more questioning of conventions in general than ISFJs. Although, with others I often don't want to rock the boat so sometimes with others, I'll just conform and blend in and follow the rules but when I'm alone and no one's looking, then I'll just go ahead and do my own thing.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco
    One other thought on what nature does for me - the aspect of centering basically equates to my getting out of my head. In mbti terms, it's probably my jumping to Se. In any event, I open my eyes to the world around me, and the moment, and the moment is beautiful. My 'presence' no longer being in my brain and instead looking through my eyes around me is the best feeling ever. It's like a temporary reprieve.
    I never really thought of it this way. Is it true for the other types, too? That engaging in your fourth function can "liberate" you from the problems that arise from your first function? I guess that makes sense, since your first and fourth functions are opposites that go hand-in-hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unkindloving
    I've found there to be a sifting process. When self-reflecting, it's unlike an Fi user in the sense that I almost require self-reflecting to another person. If I am explaining myself to someone, or a pseudo-social atmosphere like a blog, then I discover more connections and bounce more concepts back and forth. Without others to discuss with or observe, I recoil and recount the same information over and over. If related, there would be no doubt that underdeveloped Fe would want to consume others and accomodate to do so, rather than recognize how they must also reflect at the same time to make progress.
    I thought that was more of an extrovert thing? But I've also heard the same type of thing for Ne users. So now I'm confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred
    Or don't see the need to at least indicate they're making a sacrifice. Because often it turns out not to have been necessary at all.
    :o This goes against everything that is immature Fe! Lol. But you're right.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony
    After reading this thread, I kind of wonder if I'm not really an FJ type because I relate to much of what you say.
    I find that happens with a lot of threads. The issues brought up are not Fe-exclusive--we're just trying to put it under the Fe umbrella so we can seperate what makes our thought processes different from others.

    To illustrate, I find I can relate to Fi threads a lot. Though I still find obvious differences between me and what is being discussed about Fi. It kind of reminds me of an empath thread I was involved in in personalitycafe. Both INFJs and INFPs can be empaths: easily picking up on what a person is feeling, easily being affected by emotional atmospheres, and easily getting emotional overloads. But there's a divergence. More of the INFPs in the thread said they struggle with avoiding people/situations where the people are negative because their negativity will affect their mood and self-esteem, and they struggle with being jealous of people who are not affected by emotional atmospheres. More of the INFJs in the thread said they struggle with not being able to seperate the other person's emotions from their own and feeling guilty that they don't have to go through what the person is going through, thereby affecting their self-esteem.

    I guess what I'm saying is, take the characteristics that describe Si, Ne, Fe, Ti, and Ni users and try to find key divergences that seperate your personality from theirs. Good luck with your self-discovery journey.

  7. #37
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    If you don't relate to the OP, remember that what I said is on the extreme side of young and immature Fe. Not older and more developed Fe, like you might have if you don't relate. I didn't beat around the bush in my OP. I didn't just list out idealistically good characteristics like MBTI descriptions too often do.

    All your insights are awesome, guys! And we finally got more than INFJs to respond!

  8. #38
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    Among two Fe-users, this can cause nothing to get done. Take me and my INFJ friend. When we are deciding what to do, it goes like this: "What do you want to do?" "What do YOU want to do?" "I don't care what we do. It's up to you." "No really, it's up to YOU." Either we randomly switch between activities, not really knowing what we ourselves want to do. Or, one of us actually does have an opinion and says: "Fuck it. I want this." without acknowledging what the other person wants at all. And, both of us being people pleasers, the other person submissively goes along with it.
    I sorta relate to this. Eventually, I know one of us has to make a decision and usually I'm the one to ultimately make the decision, while making sure the other one is okay with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post

    Not reacting until someone else reacts, then matching their reaction. We don't know how to act around you or what to think about you until you react first. That way, we can be most pleasing to you. Or, if you react negatively, then we assume it would be most logical to you if we were negative back. Until you react to us, this can make you think we're indifferent and uncaring about you. It also prevents you from knowing what we truly think of you. If we can seperate ourselves from you enough to even have our own opinion about you.
    I also relate to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I think it comes down to your values. Maybe harmony is a key value to Fe users?
    It's definitely a key value for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I actually am quite opinionful and do not easily change those, but I do some adjusting using the reactions of the people around me to my emotions. Most people who only know me superficially are not going to see me risking a lot of unproductive conflict with them, so the people who get more facets of who I am displayed to them are those who have shown respect, reciprocation and receptivity to me, they are someone who I cannnot work around without dealing with our differences, or they are in my very innermost circle. So I don't think it's all a matter of trying to please because I don't know who I am. Instead, I am protective of who I am and I dislike conflict if it doesn't serve a purpose, so I am selective about who I show the less edited version of myself to.
    I very much relate to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post

    I think one of the reasons I tend to want to overaccommodate is that I hate emotional surprises from other people, so I feel that at least if I suck something up myself, I more likely can deal with that than the unexpected or unknown response from someone else.
    And this. The hardest is when I don't know the person well enough to accurately predict how they'll react to me. It's why I hold alot of myself back at first. In a way its almost easier to deal with someone you know is going to be antagonistic. At least then, its not a surprise and you can prepare accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post

    My tendancy is also to need an invitation of some sort that says I am welcome to interact with a person. A couple of years ago, I realized that I had missed a lot of good friendships this way. I was focussed on not intruding and on not wanting to be rejected, when many people are unsure of themselves and appreciate someone coming in and "imposing" themselves in a pleasant way. The one thing I struggle with is that all my interactions with someone are based on my last interaction with them, instead of working in real time in the way I relate. I think this is confusing to them, but because I tend to be more of a responder, I find it hard to interact until I've had some time to reflect on what really was going on during our last exchange.
    And this too.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post

    We tend to go on people's past behaviour and make decisions accordingly. If they were untrustworthy in the past, it takes a lot of time and experience to change our perception of that.
    And this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    2. I show parts of myself that I can sense the other person can connect with; and I don't typically bother to show parts of myself that other won't connect with. So none of what I am saying is a "lie," I'm expressing different facets of me, but it is definitely a selected group of facets. Soooo..... I might really disagree with someone on an issue or even not like them on some levels, but I'll still try to make a connection by showing them stuff about me that I think they can connect with. It's selected/purposeful expression, rather than raw personal expression. Again, CONSCIOUS interaction rather than just raw unfiltered interaction.
    And especially this.


    There's more to come.
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  9. #39
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post

    As for accommodating, yes, I do do that. But to be honest, I'm much, much happier knowing they're happy with whatever we're doing than sensing they're in some way unhappy/dissatisfied. Their unhappiness would make me anxious and I'd then lose any potential for happiness that I might have had on my own because I'd be so vexed by their vibes. And, often if I turn it over to them, I *don't* really care one way or another what we do. If I absolutely don't want to do one thing, I'll state that, but otherwise in a situation of ambivalence I'll always turn it over to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I identify A LOT with what both cascadeco and Jennifer have said here. Cascadeco makes a very important point here. Someone may accommodate me by going to something with me that they hate. However, the fact that they hate it spoils my own enjoyment of it and if the person is close to me, may even make me question my own taste or judgement in liking it.
    I identify with both of you. If the others around me aren't enjoying themselves, I'm not going to enjoy myself much either. If I invite others along to do something with me, I want to make sure that they are receptive to it and they will likely enjoy it. If I sense that I have to drag them into it, I'd rather just go by myself and not at all. Because if I have to drag someone into it, then I'll constantly be concerned about their reactions and feelings which prevents me from truly enjoying the activity.

    I also agree with Fidelia when she says that she may even question her own taste and judgement in liking it. I often feel that way. It doesn't even have to be with someone close, although if someone is closer to me, it affects me more strongly because I'm likely to respect their opinions more. I'll feel that way for example when just discussing movies, for example with acquaintances. I mention some movie I saw that was totally awesome and someone else trashes it. I then wonder if my opinion of the movie was really well justified. Especially if the majority hold the opposite opinion, I may conclude that I must have lousy taste and others are perceiving things in the movie I'm not and I must be stupid for not seeing the bad acting or holes in the plotline or whatever. Its why I hardly ever talk movies with anyone anymore. You never know how someone's gonna respond. I wish I could just talk about what I like more freely and not worry so much about dissenting opinions. I also wish I could hold more firmly to my opinions on some things and not be so amenable to outside influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    A lot of the people that I accommodate will push me to do something new that I am fairly sure I don't want to do. I will go reluctantly and then end up enjoying it (trying new food, new restaurant, new activity etc - I tend to prefer what is familiar or that I know I can comfortably navigate even though I don't dislike new experiences). They are able to put up with the discomfort of knowing they are making me do something I don't want to. I find that much harder to do. I'm not as sure that I can make them love it or if they don't that it is not somehow a personal reflection of a shortcoming on my part.
    Yeah, I have a very hard time convincing someone to do something they are initially lukewarm about it. I find the opposite much easier to do. Bend to their desires rather than having others bend to mine. I'm quite open to new experiences anyway and will try most things once (within reason). Unless its something that's truly repulsive to me or goes against some key values or principles or threatens my safety, I'll almost always go along with it. I also want to add that part of my enjoyment is in just seeing others enjoy themselves.





    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren View Post
    If I have an unsettling conversation with a friend, I can't let it go in my mind until I see them again. I can't just shrug it off as the other person having a bad day or saying something they didn't mean to say (even though that might in fact be the case). I'm so careful about what I say to a friend that I think my friend would feel the same.

    I will also have my enjoyment of something I love spoiled if the other person isn't enjoying it. As Cascadero said, I go along with something if I'm ambivalent about it to make the other person happy. If I do really care, I'll let it be known. I'm so easygoing that if I do state I care about something one way or another, I REALLY care. I know that in these instances, I hope the other person will just give me what I really need.

    I'm also so careful about boundaries in relationships and relate to what's been said about being invited in first. I'm definitely that way. I can see Fidelia what you mean about missing some friendships this way. I never thought about that. I won't push myself on someone. What Cascadero said about others feeling you're showing 100 percent of youself when in fact it's much less: yes, definitely I know others feel that they know the real me when I'm just showing them a little slice.
    All this is scarily true of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    I tend to go along with what the other person wants like others have mentioned, but oftentimes it is because it doesn't matter much to me. This is true if it applies to anything in the concrete world. I find it is easy for me to change (sometimes drastically) what I eat, how I handle money, or other aspects of lifestyle. I don't tend to be fussy about external things. I can't bear interpersonal tension, though, and couldn't have a fighty relationship. My personal relationships tend to be rather free of tension in that way. If the other person's nature is to fight then a deeper connection isn't made.

    The issue of being unwelcomed company also makes me hesitant to impose myself on people. To have someone beholden to me for some reason when it isn't their desire is one of my worst scenarios. It tends to devastate me more than it should.
    I'm flexible about doing things and going places with other people. If someone really wants to go to a restaurant that I'm not all that crazy about, I'll usually go. However, I'm not as flexible as you are regarding everyday eating habits or handling money. I don't want to sacrifice too much of myself and my own ways of doing things for the sake of a relationship. Its one thing to go to a restaurant once in a while serving food you normally don't eat. It's another thing to be in a relationship where you are served that same food *all the time*.

    I'm definitely with you on not wanting to have a fighty relationship. Harmony is very important to me and I am made more uneasy by disharmony than most people I know.

    I'm also very sensitive about whether or not I'm being perceived as unwanted company and I'm very careful not to impose on others too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I do get incredibly thrown off when someone I am close to demonstrates they’ve gained a perception of me that doesn’t match my perception of myself- especially if they don’t give me credit for something I take pride in. I can take constructive criticism about how my behavior seemed unkind or inconsiderate, but I can’t handle someone harboring secret negative thoughts about me without being willing to talk to me about it. I always pick up on those secret thoughts sooner or later and it makes me question if my perception of myself is faulty.
    Oh is this ever true for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    I find it ironic that INFJs are so cautious about not being unwanted, yet we have a hard time telling others that they are unwanted.
    Yep, totally relate to this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post

    To illustrate, I find I can relate to Fi threads a lot. Though I still find obvious differences between me and what is being discussed about Fi. It kind of reminds me of an empath thread I was involved in in personalitycafe. Both INFJs and INFPs can be empaths: easily picking up on what a person is feeling, easily being affected by emotional atmospheres, and easily getting emotional overloads. But there's a divergence. More of the INFPs in the thread said they struggle with avoiding people/situations where the people are negative because their negativity will affect their mood and self-esteem, and they struggle with being jealous of people who are not affected by emotional atmospheres. More of the INFJs in the thread said they struggle with not being able to seperate the other person's emotions from their own and feeling guilty that they don't have to go through what the person is going through, thereby affecting their self-esteem.

    I guess what I'm saying is, take the characteristics that describe Si, Ne, Fe, Ti, and Ni users and try to find key divergences that seperate your personality from theirs. Good luck with your self-discovery journey.
    Now in that example, I moderately relate to INFP and not at all to INFJ.

    However, considering how much of the other stuff in this thread I strongly relate to, you gotta wonder if I'm not really some sort of FJ type. Really, would most INTPs relate to so much of this stuff to the degree that I do?
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  10. #40
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I do identify with what Unkindloving said about needing someone around to bounce thoughts off of. It's not enough for me to just write it down somewhere. I need somewhere where I'm going to get some kind of reaction, which in turn fires my own thinking in directions it wouldn't normally go by itself.

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