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  1. #21
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    Heh...I can stand only about 15 minutes of nature and then I get bored/depressed (since boredom>relaxation>sadness if you're not careful). I'm hoping for more suggestions from other people.
    Well..and there you go!! If you find nature boring, then it's not going to be your route to becoming centered/peaceful. I know that for me too, boredom is the first step in a negative mental spiral towards depression and overanalysis/self-critique. However -> relaxation doesn't go to sadness for me. Does it for you, really? For me, being relaxed, without boredom, is one thing. The presence of boredom though will remove any potential for true relaxation.

    What suggestions are you looking for? Things that would ground/center you? That will vary from one person to the next - I mean it could be just listening to music with no other distractions, it could be yoga or running or walking, it could be something artistic, or just sipping coffee/tea... I dunno.

    One other thought on what nature does for me - the aspect of centering basically equates to my getting out of my head. In mbti terms, it's probably my jumping to Se. In any event, I open my eyes to the world around me, and the moment, and the moment is beautiful. My 'presence' no longer being in my brain and instead looking through my eyes around me is the best feeling ever. It's like a temporary reprieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness
    I find it ironic that INFJs are so cautious about not being unwanted, yet we have a hard time telling others that they are unwanted. I guess that's another self-abandoning aspect. When I was younger, I felt like all the pressure to make an interaction good was on me. Whatever I say had to be carefully worded, but whatever they said was totally permissible.
    Uggh, I still do this.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #22
    violaine
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    Oh boy, this thread is just what I've been thinking about lately. I feel a growth spurt coming on. *Placeholder for later thoughts.*

  3. #23
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    Concept I like to restate when it comes to ENFJ identity:
    "'We have a stable core that is all individual, but this moldable outer shell used for interacting with different people/situations. So as we're sifting through ourselves in our own time, we're remolding the outer shell. Breaking off pieces off it, examining, and placing some of those pieces into our stable core. like puzzle pieces. We're constantly searching for the ones that fit us from external scenarios' It's like we're building a more efficient self, but after sorting through all of the fickle parts of fickle things.. and somehow it works"

    I'd venture to say that the difficulty with an introverted Fe user is that they aren't as inclined to acquire what their Fe may need for better self-identification due to said introversion.
    Young and immature Fe can require that emphasis on people so it can grow into a mature Fe, so it may have to take a bit of a beating for the boundaries to be set and understood. I've learned where walls are necessary and where I stand separate from others due to losing myself in the wake of others at times. Then again, I don't feel that I've done this too frequently even in the past. It usually only presented itself in relationships, where you do want to try to appease your partner, but can forget your own ground in the process. There's always been this inherent sense of stability and self when I interact with others, although I will be very compromising if I find myself indifferent.

    In specific 'what do we do?' scenarios, I work with different questions.
    "What are the options?" Once we define our options- "Which are you opposed to?" I state what I am opposed to after that and we see if there is an agreement or compromise to be made.
    The thing to consider is if someone is setting their own desires to the side, or if they are generally laid back and open with preferences. I am a "Yes" person for the mostpart. It's rare that I have a deep enough "do not want" feeling, which can become surpising when that feeling does arise. Certain things like.. I love a variety of activities, but almost completely refuse to go ice skating. I'm fine with going out to eat at most places, but if I will instantly decline an asian restaurant if I'm not in the mood. Etc. These aren't random decisions, but can seem like it if someone always approaches me with what I'll agree to.

    Also, I've found there to be a sifting process. When self-reflecting, it's unlike an Fi user in the sense that I almost require self-reflecting to another person. If I am explaining myself to someone, or a pseudo-social atmosphere like a blog, then I discover more connections and bounce more concepts back and forth. Without others to discuss with or observe, I recoil and recount the same information over and over. If related, there would be no doubt that underdeveloped Fe would want to consume others and accomodate to do so, rather than recognize how they must also reflect at the same time to make progress.
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  4. #24
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    Any insights on this, anyone? I suffer from this as well - what the heck are my needs? How AM I doing? I find that meditation or just consciously trying to be still and look inward helps. Actively try to engage your intuition. It's always busy looking at other people, just consciously making the effort to turn it on yourself, to turn it inward can help.
    I know that, for myself, a large part of the problem is that I’m wary of feeling a need that I don’t see other people having. I think part of me instantly assumes that if I’m the only one feeling a specific need (at work, in relationships, friendships, whatever) then it’s probably unreasonable or selfish and I need to figure out how not to need it- rather than accept it as a valid need that I have a right to impose on other people. <- That’s my knee jerk reaction. Probably Fe related, but I don’t know how common it is.

    As a matter of necessity, I’ve gotten better at spotting when I’m doing it. Somewehat. What helps me the most, for some reason, is to see other people with the same tendency doing the same thing- and wanting to jump in and give the person a talkin’ to about how they aren’t being fair to themselves (that’s often how I figure out that I’m not being fair to myself, I’ll see myself if what they’re doing). It’s hardest when I’m in a group of people with very dissimilar needs- when I can’t recognize myself in any one them- because then I don’t begin to understand what my needs are or if I even have any.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Z Buck mentioned the dissonance created when someone we love has a very different perception of us or does not see something we value highly as being of any worth. It makes me question the core of my identity and how I present myself to the world. Even worse, if I determine that the person's perceptions or statements are invalid with the help of many other people's added perceptions, it calls into question my sense of judgment in picking my inner circle people. I am not truly close to many people and it takes awhile for them to get through all the different stages of friendship into the very centre. Therefore, when someone acts out of character or says something inaccurate or cruel that affects me at the core of who I am, I also have to process where I missed seeing that and why I would have so blindly let them become such a big part of my world.

    […..] He truly had been my best friend, and at his best was a great person: generous, thoughtful, capable, knowledgeable, helpful, good company, creative and fun, popular, good at teaching new things. I couldn't believe I had overlooked the other stuff smaller indicators though and it called into question everything I had believed about him, our relationship, or myself.

    It’s weird, but yeah, it really does throw me into an existential meltdown when I feel like I’ve achieved almost 100% same-pageness with someone and they do or say something hurtful that I didn’t expect see coming- because usually I’m so good at being able to estimate what others are capable of. At the risk of sounding melodramatic, it’s like the fabric of reality rips apart at the seams: it makes me question everything I *think* I know about the people in my life. If someone close starts lying or twisting the truth at my expense, simply thinking “so long, jerkface!” isn’t going to cut it; it gets way into my head and messes with a lot of things. It’s not like I was 100% convinced that the couple of people with whom this has happened (with me) were going to be close to me forever- but I did trust them to still care about my feelings and be respectful if we ever drifted apart.

    While I’ve read here and there this is relatively common for INFJs, I really don’t know Fe related this is. There’s definitely a losing-sense-of-self aspect to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    I HATE it when someone is thinking bad thoughts about me, but they won't tell me what they are. If they could tell me about them, then I could help them understand that I just have different paradigms and standards than they do, and so they'd be less likely to be thinking those bad thoughts about me. I HATE it when someone thinks they shouldn't tell me what they think of me because it would hurt me. Or because you care about your own immediate mood more than both our sanities ("I don't want to talk about it because I'll get crabby"). It hurts me MUCH more to know that you are thinking false things about me that could be easily cleared up if we just TALKED about them.
    It just makes me wary. Anyone who knows me well- knows that they can say pretty much anything to me without me flying off the handle. My nostrils flare a bit when I get super-nonplussed, that’s as crazy as it gets. I consider whatever criticism I get, and- as long as the person is coming from a constructive place- am grateful for their honesty. If someone doesn’t value this about me, then I probably don’t have enough in common with them to be close friends anyway. So the only reason someone would have to withhold opinions from me, as far as I can tell, is that they want something from me (if only just my company)- but don’t think they’ll get it if I know what they’re really thinking about me. Either that, or they just aren’t comfortable with that much honesty- but then that’d put them in the category of not having enough in common with me.

    The bottom line is that it’s usually pretty clear when someone doesn’t have much respect for my judgment. Anyone who isn’t willing to be upfront about it gets held at arm’s length. Occasionally someone flies in under the radar and I begin to trust they’ll be forthcoming when they’ve got a problem- and it’s really disorienting when their hidden disrespect starts seeping through.

    Again- not sure how Fe is applicable here- but it does seem to revolve around needing harmony in the environment in order for my mind to function well.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    One other thought on what nature does for me - the aspect of centering basically equates to my getting out of my head. In mbti terms, it's probably my jumping to Se. In any event, I open my eyes to the world around me, and the moment, and the moment is beautiful. My 'presence' no longer being in my brain and instead looking through my eyes around me is the best feeling ever. It's like a temporary reprieve.
    I was gonna say, I think the outdoors thing is Se related. Working on some project with my hands generally makes me feel calmed and grounded- as does yoga. It doesn’t make me feel connected to other people, necessarily, but it gives me a general feeling of connectedness to my environment. The only time just physically being in the presence of nature has had this calming effect on me is driving through the hills of Kentucky, Tennessee or South Carolina (they’re AMAZING). Sometimes an ocean beach will do this for me, but it really depends on how developed the area is.

    I guess the best way of phrasing it is that it gives me a big fat "this too shall pass" feeling, and my own problems just don't look anywhere as big when I can feel connected to my environment.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #25
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm finding it interesting that there's a common theme of us questioning other people's words/behaviour less than our own. I think we feel a heavy weight of responsibility to do the majority of the adjusting. While to some extent this is a healthy outlook, when taken to an extreme it can interfere with retaining perspective, setting boundaries for others and can sap our resources to an unreasonable extent.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Random thoughts:
    I've had these experiences of adjusting myself so the parts that show are the ones I think most likely to be harmonious or appreciated. I think of it as attuning myself to the other person. I do it because I really like it. I like to be attuned and I feel I'm gifted at attuning. That is very much a defining characteristic of mine, that I like harmony and to get along without friction. I am also always interested to see what my instrument (my self) feels like, tuned to different people, so it's fun for me, too.

    I also don't really care what the activity is. If I like a person, I'm about the person, and what we're doing is incidental. Even if I think I won't like something, if the other person really likes it a lot, I am totally up for them to show me how to like it, so I'll say I don't imagine myself liking that, but why don't you show me how, and that seems to work.

    Nature is really important to my well-being, too. I need trees and animals or I get depressed. It's good for me to have a pet. I don't actually get to spend that much time with trees, but I live where I can see them, and drive a route that they are on either side every day. A beach works great, too.

    As I've gotten older I've realized that sometimes people are just wrong. Often, in fact. Including me. So it's not quite so devastating if someone fails to see who I am inside and puts a label on me that I don't like or relate to. They're just wrong, and it's ok. If somebody lies to me and I'm fooled, well ... they're good liars. They're fooling other people, too. Same for if they treat me badly and I let them do it a time or two -- it's usually because I can't believe what I'm seeing in the first place, so I need to see it again before I'm convinced. But if someone treats me badly, that's not a reason for me to feel bad about myself. They're the ones who should be ashamed.

    I have come to cut completely through the bullshit and state simple sentences, for example, "I don't want to," said smiling and sweet, but just like that. The first few times I did it, I was scared to death, but having come to the conclusion that I do most of the adjusting and it's unnecessary since everyone else seems to do as they please and let the chips fall where they may, I decided to experiment with that, and it works. When I say "I don't want to," the other person will often laugh, find it amusing, ask me what else I'd like to do or offer another suggestion. I don't feel any huge need to explain anymore, either. This is a challenge for the other person and sometimes they like that. "I don't want to." "Why?" "I just don't. Let's do x instead." Forcing myself to come up out of my head and speak words meant the words were simple and direct and I just threw them out there in a what the hell, let's see if this works. It does. When I get more comfortable with the person, sometimes I'll explain myself if they want me to, but sometimes I don't.

    Some of this stuff is about being female, too, I'm convinced.

  7. #27
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Can definitely relate to a lot of stuff in this thread. I'm definitely a compartmentalizer when it comes to interacting with people, and I tend to do a lot of the flexing. However, I will speak up when it comes to making decisions--I feel like I'm willing to compromise a lot, but I'm not willing to play the, "I don't know, what do YOU want to do" game when I'm starving. Have an opinion, or I'll decide. :-P I also hate it when I feel like I'm the only one doing the flexing. It's like an unspoken code--I accommodate you, and you accommodate me. Also really relate to the need to be alone in nature, to see trees and to be around animals to recharge. Living in New York City was very difficult for me because I didn't have any of those things.
    Something Witty

  8. #28
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    Tiltyred: Some of this stuff is about being female, too, I'm convinced.
    Are you saying that being incredibly overaccommodating is more likely to be found in females (perhaps as a result of socialization)?

  9. #29
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    Are you saying that being incredibly overaccommodating is more likely to be found in females (perhaps as a result of socialization)?
    Yes.

  10. #30
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^Hmm. I don't have that problem.

    Tbh, OP reads like codependency issues more than "Fe".

    Among a Fe-user and non-Fe-user, this can cause the non-Fe-user to always get their needs met, while the Fe-user never gets their needs met.
    That hasn't been my experience. However, I'm no stranger to having Fe-user claims reframed as acts of selflessness because they are incapable of asserting their own needs in a healthy way. That's something to watch out for and avoid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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