User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 67

  1. #11
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    I tend to go along with what the other person wants like others have mentioned, but oftentimes it is because it doesn't matter much to me. This is true if it applies to anything in the concrete world. I find it is easy for me to change (sometimes drastically) what I eat, how I handle money, or other aspects of lifestyle. I don't tend to be fussy about external things. I can't bear interpersonal tension, though, and couldn't have a fighty relationship. My personal relationships tend to be rather free of tension in that way. If the other person's nature is to fight then a deeper connection isn't made.

    The issue of being unwelcomed company also makes me hesitant to impose myself on people. To have someone beholden to me for some reason when it isn't their desire is one of my worst scenarios. It tends to devastate me more than it should.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    256

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    I tend to go along with what the other person wants like others have mentioned, but oftentimes it is because it doesn't matter much to me. This is true if it applies to anything in the concrete world. I find it is easy for me to change (sometimes drastically) what I eat, how I handle money, or other aspects of lifestyle. I don't tend to be fussy about external things. I can't bear interpersonal tension, though, and couldn't have a fighty relationship. My personal relationships tend to be rather free of tension in that way. If the other person's nature is to fight then a deeper connection isn't made.

    The issue of being unwelcomed company also makes me hesitant to impose myself on people. To have someone beholden to me for some reason when it isn't their desire is one of my worst scenarios. It tends to devastate me more than it should.
    Everything you say here is so true for me as well. I'm happy to change restaurants or destinations at the drop of a hat. I don't care either, about these things; if it makes the other person happy, I'm happy. I don't mind (and rather like) someone who's fussy because I can accomodate them. I'm fussy about some things in the concrete world but I can easily let them go. But I so agree about interpersonal relationships. I dislike a relationship where I'm having to defend myself or argue a lot. I need harmony and to understand and talk with someone peaceably, for the most part.

    Also, what you say about being unwelcomed company: that would be the worst thing for me as well. What is very difficult and devastating to me as well is having someone welcome you with open arms for a long time and then begin to show signs that they feel guilty or beholden to me rather than just openly caring as they once had. I tend to feel that I did something to warrant the change of heart, and that will weigh on me.

  3. #13
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,686

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    FJs want to be their own person. But let's face it, you have to start from somewhere. So here is how I think young and immature Fe puts too much emphasis on other people.

    I'm going to refer to Fe-users as "we" until I get some feedback of whether these relate to Fe or not.

    Always doing what the other person wants. We figure out what the other person wants first. Then, we usually go along with it, assuming the other person would be most happy doing what they said they want to do.

    Among two Fe-users, this can cause nothing to get done. Take me and my INFJ friend. When we are deciding what to do, it goes like this: "What do you want to do?" "What do YOU want to do?" "I don't care what we do. It's up to you." "No really, it's up to YOU." Either we randomly switch between activities, not really knowing what we ourselves want to do. Or, one of us actually does have an opinion and says: "Fuck it. I want this." without acknowledging what the other person wants at all. And, both of us being people pleasers, the other person submissively goes along with it.
    Wow, I was just going on a tangent about this to a fellow NFJ a couple of weeks ago. Seriously, word for word almost, with the “Well what do YOU want to do” loop. I was theorizing it also had to do with the fact that an FJ’s perception is directed inward (Ni or Si): so when asked “what do you want to do”, Pe’ers are more inclined to come up with ‘this, or this, or this!’. When we reach into our pockets for options regarding the external world, we come up empty a lot.

    [edit: Like others above mentioned, I also am often open minded about participating in things other people suggest. It's just, I've noticed, FJs are often the last people to suggest things. Fe plays a role, I think, in that I often wait until I have a firm grasp of what the other person and I have in common- I want to make sure I suggest something the other person will enjoy as much as I'll enjoy it myself. I definitely also think that having introverted perception is at play here, because I find myself still playing the 'what do YOU want to do' ping-pong with other FJs I've known forever. ]


    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    Among a Fe-user and non-Fe-user, this can cause the non-Fe-user to always get their needs met, while the Fe-user never gets their needs met. So, the we become resentful. Fed up, eventually we outwardly express our anger to you. Then you wonder why we are so pissy, because you know that if we had just said what we wanted, we wouldn't get resentful.
    I noticed this tendency early on, and actually ended up resenting myself more often than not. The problem for me is that I have trouble figuring out what my needs are. I can state them when I know what they are, I just usually don’t know what they are- even though I’m pretty good at figuring out the other person’s needs (and doing what I can to fill them). I get angry about the imbalance, but because it’s so vague to me (recognizing it’s my own doing, but being clueless about how to amend it) I usually end up withdrawing. This has always been a big problem for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    Not reacting until someone else reacts, then matching their reaction. We don't know how to act around you or what to think about you until you react first. That way, we can be most pleasing to you. Or, if you react negatively, then we assume it would be most logical to you if we were negative back. Until you react to us, this can make you think we're indifferent and uncaring about you. It also prevents you from knowing what we truly think of you. If we can seperate ourselves from you enough to even have our own opinion about you.
    This^ I’m having trouble relating to. It might be that I don’t understand what you’re describing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    Communicating with you based on what we think you want to hear. We try to match your communication style so that you can think we're just like you and you'll like us. As said earlier, if you communicate to us first, then we can easily mirror how you communicate. If the circumstances change between us, and we haven't communicated since then, we freak out. Since we have no example or guide, us NFJs can get some pretty weird theories from our Ni of how we think you'll react. Then, every time you react, we automatically adjust our communication style again to match your own. To you, this switching in tone and wording can make us seem oddly scattered, rapidly bipolar, or passively opinionless. It makes it difficult for you to know what we really think, and as said earlier, if we can seperate ourselves from you enough to even have our own communication style.
    Definitely. I think Ni (+ Fe) in particular can cause implosions of possibilities where dealing with other people are concerned- it’s almost paralyzing at times. The slightest indication that someone is no longer on the same page causes all sorts of internal problems, and we get busy checking all the information we’ve catalogued about someone to reformulate the infrastructure in our heads. It’s really difficult to communicate with someone unless we can trust the framework we have catalogued in our heads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    In conclusion, what a Fe user thinks and does is all based on other people, and changes in a Fe user's behavior and thoughts is based on other people's reactions, making it difficult for an immature Fe user to have their own opinions and identity.

    So, what do you think? Relate? Don't relate? Has to do with Fe? Doesn't have to do with Fe? Any differences between the four FJ types about this? Anything else to add?

    I absolutely agree with most of this. I probably would have worded it differently, but that’s likely a nit-picky semantic issue with the term ‘identity’. I feel like I have a rather strong sense of identity, I feel like I am always the same person with the same values regardless of where I am or who I am dealing with- what I feel like I am perpetually working on is determining my own needs and feeling comfortable with imposing them on others. My need for an overall benevolent feeling in groups of people overrides my personal needs too often, which- in groups where others do not share this same need for group flow- leads to my own needs not being taken into account as much as they should be.

    I haven’t read any of the responses yet (if I wait to post until I’ve read the others, I might get burnt out and decide not to post ), so apologies if I’m repeating anything already said.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  4. #14
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,686

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    My core self is in my creative expression. It is what I consider "me". I have experienced that sense of losing myself especially when people I am close to shock me in a hurtful way. Realizing my own inability to see it coming and feeling a break in connection, like they are blind to who I am, makes me still try to connect with empathy, but I end up sharing that feeling of being blind to who I am. I see myself through their eyes and know it isn't me. It is an isolating feeling and at its worst feels like non-existence.
    I do get incredibly thrown off when someone I am close to demonstrates they’ve gained a perception of me that doesn’t match my perception of myself- especially if they don’t give me credit for something I take pride in. I don’t need most people I interact with to give me credit for being kind or considerate, but I do need people I am close with to recognize this about me- at the very least, I need them to recognize that they are important qualities to me. I can take constructive criticism about how my behavior seemed unkind or inconsiderate, but I can’t handle someone harboring secret negative thoughts about me without being willing to talk to me about it. I always pick up on those secret thoughts sooner or later and it makes me question if my perception of myself is faulty. It’s happened to me a couple of times- where someone I trust completely pulls the rug out from under me, by surprising me by not giving me credit for having values that I felt sure I had- and it was devastating. It isn’t that I need people to respect me or think positive things about me, but I definitely need the people I feel close with to be honest about what their opinions are. It takes me a ridiculously long time to heal from that kind of emotional surprise.

    So I guess when I am really close to someone, my ‘identity’ does rest somewhat on the connection I have with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I've also found that since I tend to calibrate my emotional state by the reactions of others, and because I put more emphasis on where information is coming and accept it is very likely true if it's coming from someone whose judgement I trust or whom I love, I sometimes can take something as truth if the other person sounds certain of it, when in fact it is not. This is one of the big INFJ downfalls. We tend to go on people's past behaviour and make decisions accordingly. If they were untrustworthy in the past, it takes a lot of time and experience to change our perception of that. If they were trustworthy and kind in the past, it takes a long time to recognize immature or selfish behaviour for what it is and draw appropriate lines to protect ourselves. It's easy for us to really believe the other person is right about us if they are someone we love.
    And this^ is exactly why, I think, it takes such a ridiculously long time to recover from it. It’s hard for me to dismiss information that doesn’t agree with my own identity when it comes from someone whom I’ve grown to trust. No matter how ‘clearly’ mistaken an opinion seems to be (from someone I trust), no matter how many other people tell me I should ‘let it go’, no matter how much I tell myself I should ‘let it go’: I can’t seem to get rid of the urge to loop about it for a long time before purging it from my system. It just takes time- and the closer I felt to the person, the longer it takes to restructure the construct I had in my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren View Post
    That analyzation of various alternatives or explanations that is Ni or Ne can be draining sometimes, though I depend on intuition. The trouble is not everything is possible but there may in fact be various reasons why they said or did a certain thing and it's hard to nail down a specific reason that will satisfy (at least for me, I'll endlessly replay a conversation in my mind, and all of the nonverbal language as well). Sometimes I ask myself, what is the most likely reason they're behaving this way given what I know about the person and past experience?
    ^Exactly.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  5. #15
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Random Ness - you articulated Fe's potential role in relationships so brilliantly! I'm so glad you did that.

    Annwn and Lauren - can you tell me more about your creative expression? Are you artists? Do you (and everyone else reading) this is a crucial part of a Fe-user's individual life? Like, is this necessary for us to be differentiated and healthy (I'm always looking for the practical application from all this discussion).

    Annwn: I recover by being alone in nature because the connection I feel there in the stillness is my core.
    Do you do this on your own, or with other people?

    Fidelia: Instead, I am protective of who I am and I dislike conflict if it doesn't serve a purpose, so I am selective about who I show the less edited version of myself to.
    I like this. You don't have to change yourself, just who you choose to associate with. And you own that. And it seems like a perfectly good solution to me.

    Fidelia: don't always recognize how far I'm going to accommodate them.
    So true.

    Jennifer: 2. I show parts of myself that I can sense the other person can connect with; and I don't typically bother to show parts of myself that other won't connect with. So none of what I am saying is a "lie," I'm expressing different facets of me, but it is definitely a selected group of facets. Soooo..... I might really disagree with someone on an issue or even not like them on some levels, but I'll still try to make a connection by showing them stuff about me that I think they can connect with. It's selected/purposeful expression, rather than raw personal expression. Again, CONSCIOUS interaction rather than just raw unfiltered interaction.
    I totally relate. Do you think this is a good thing or not (happy birthday, by the way!). I find that sometimes people will bring up a tough topic and I leap on it, but I would never have had the courage to bring up that topic.

    Z Buck McFate: The problem for me is that I have trouble figuring out what my needs are. I can state them when I know what they are, I just usually don’t know what they are- even though I’m pretty good at figuring out the other person’s needs (and doing what I can to fill them). I get angry about the imbalance, but because it’s so vague to me (recognizing it’s my own doing, but being clueless about how to amend it) I usually end up withdrawing. This has always been a big problem for me.
    This resonates with me as well (wow, how many ways are there to say, "YES! EXACTLY!"? I know I need a few more for this post). Any insights on this, anyone? I suffer from this as well - what the heck are my needs? How AM I doing? I find that meditation or just consciously trying to be still and look inward helps. Actively try to engage your intuition. It's always busy looking at other people, just consciously making the effort to turn it on yourself, to turn it inward can help.

  6. #16
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    4 so/sp
    Posts
    6,931

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    Do you do this on your own, or with other people?
    Not at all speaking for Annwn here, but since I can also relate very much to the nature piece, I thought I'd answer this question.

    For myself, nature is one of the only things that truly centers me and lifts me above the tendency to get trapped in everyday/more small-scale concerns. It is probably what I most value in the world/life too; I mean, I became very aware of it (other lifeforms, ecology, etc) at a relatively young age (elementary school) and it's been a pretty big component of my life since. On a personal/healing level, it definitely calms me and I am able to 'let go' of things and clear my head. Beyond that, though, I find so much beauty and complexity in it that civilized life and most peoples' little bubble of a world that they live in just seems to become rather trivial in the big picture. There's a whole world out there.

    I am mostly on my own when I'm out hiking and such, but there have been a few people over the years who view things similarly and so I'm able to do it with them and might be able to center myself in this way while with them - but it's definitely easier & more likely to happen when I'm alone.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  7. #17
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,112

    Default

    I find having a receptive person to talk to helps me sort out what my needs are or why I am feeling a certain way. It is not even their input, so much as expressing it out loud TO someone that helps me wade through the sea of thoughts that Ni brings my way and hone in on what is most important.

    For me, I also find I need processing time. I don't do well if I have a completely scheduled day that goes from activity to activity with not even a 10 minute break between. I also find that if I have warning about something, it allows me time to gather my heads and face it in a different way than if it is sprung on me. That time allows thoughts to percolate and develop and distill.
    __________________________

    Z Buck mentioned the dissonance created when someone we love has a very different perception of us or does not see something we value highly as being of any worth. It makes me question the core of my identity and how I present myself to the world. Even worse, if I determine that the person's perceptions or statements are invalid with the help of many other people's added perceptions, it calls into question my sense of judgment in picking my inner circle people. I am not truly close to many people and it takes awhile for them to get through all the different stages of friendship into the very centre. Therefore, when someone acts out of character or says something inaccurate or cruel that affects me at the core of who I am, I also have to process where I missed seeing that and why I would have so blindly let them become such a big part of my world.

    I felt very much that way about my ex bf. He would say things to the people I worked with about my personality or character that truly weren't accurate (eg She wouldn't say shit if she had a mouthful of it) and I was left with the possibilities of him either grossly misreading who I really am, or him manipulatively misrepresenting me to gain control or power over people's perceptions of me. Either was terribly unsettling and reflected more on me than him. I always felt that if there was one thing I could trust about him, it was his honesty and integrity towards me. Therefore, one night after we broke up, I went into the hall (his apartment was next door to mine) to get laundry and I was horrified to hear him say to two drunk Cape Breton girls at his place how he had to deal with me calling him crying late at night all the time. It infuriated, shocked and saddened me because it was blatantly untrue and because they didn't know me well but were friends with some of my friends, it affected my relationships in a place where there weren't that many friendship options. I had gone out of my way not to act needy, show openly that I was in pain etc and it was a horrible slap in the face to realize that he was willing to lie about me without provocation or encouragement from them just to try to save face himself. In that last year he did a lot of very uncharacteristic things and alienated nearly all of his longstanding friends in that way. Even this was no satisfaction though, as I pride myself on being able to read people reasonably well and usually see outcomes down the road pretty accurately. I couldn't believe that I had wasted that much time spending time with someone who had been able to put on a persona for everyone for four years. There was evidence that some of his life before coming there was spent similarly to the manner he acted at the end and I felt like a terrible fool for not seeing that immediately. He truly had been my best friend, and at his best was a great person: generous, thoughtful, capable, knowledgeable, helpful, good company, creative and fun, popular, good at teaching new things. I couldn't believe I had overlooked the other stuff smaller indicators though and it called into question everything I had believed about him, our relationship, or myself.

  8. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    270

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This^ I’m having trouble relating to. It might be that I don’t understand what you’re describing.
    There's lots of long responses that will help you with this on the first page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    if I wait to post until I’ve read the others, I might get burnt out and decide not to post
    That happens to me way too much as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I do need people I am close with to recognize this about me- at the very least, I need them to recognize that they are important qualities to me. I can take constructive criticism about how my behavior seemed unkind or inconsiderate, but I can’t handle someone harboring secret negative thoughts about me without being willing to talk to me about it. I always pick up on those secret thoughts sooner or later and it makes me question if my perception of myself is faulty.
    I HATE it when someone is thinking bad thoughts about me, but they won't tell me what they are. If they could tell me about them, then I could help them understand that I just have different paradigms and standards than they do, and so they'd be less likely to be thinking those bad thoughts about me. I HATE it when someone thinks they shouldn't tell me what they think of me because it would hurt me. Or because you care about your own immediate mood more than both our sanities ("I don't want to talk about it because I'll get crabby"). It hurts me MUCH more to know that you are thinking false things about me that could be easily cleared up if we just TALKED about them.

    The ultimate irony is, I do everything I just described. I'm going to go bang my head on the wall now.

    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava
    Random Ness - you articulated Fe's potential role in relationships so brilliantly! I'm so glad you did that.
    Thank you, mochajava. I'm touched.

    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava
    (I'm always looking for the practical application from all this discussion).
    Yay for practical application! Personally, the only time I can form my own sense of self is by being alone. That means no talking with people in real life, no online communication (like, not posting on forums), and not going anywhere where people are. That's all the advice I can give, since, if you noticed from the OP, I'm not an expert at forming a seperate identity.

    For myself, nature is one of the only things that truly centers me and lifts me above the tendency to get trapped in everyday/more small-scale concerns.
    Heh...I can stand only about 15 minutes of nature and then I get bored/depressed (since boredom>relaxation>sadness if you're not careful). I'm hoping for more suggestions from other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    I felt very much that way about my ex bf.
    I'm so sorry you had such a rough relationship with him! I'm not sure what to say...

  9. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    270

    Default

    I totally relate to what you guys are saying about needing time to process things. I get so set on what I think is going to happen, that when something unexpected comes up, I get super confused and have to spend a long time re-analyzing what is going on so I can predict what is going to happen again and act accordingly. Or...I could stop being ten steps ahead of myself all the time and take things as they come. INFJ Se power!

    I find it ironic that INFJs are so cautious about not being unwanted, yet we have a hard time telling others that they are unwanted. I guess that's another self-abandoning aspect. When I was younger, I felt like all the pressure to make an interaction good was on me. Whatever I say had to be carefully worded, but whatever they said was totally permissible.

    I'm waiting for EFJs to talk about how they are different than IFJs in what I said in the OP.

  10. #20
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Random Ness: I guess that's another self-abandoning aspect. When I was younger, I felt like all the pressure to make an interaction good was on me. Whatever I say had to be carefully worded, but whatever they said was totally permissible.
    Self-abandoning is such a good way to put it. Are you a writer or communicator in your day job? You are just so incredibly articulate!

    Random Ness: When I was younger, I felt like all the pressure to make an interaction good was on me. Whatever I say had to be carefully worded, but whatever they said was totally permissible.
    Yes! Then when people tell you to "take initiative" or "put yourself out there" or "take ownership" or "be responsible" or "if it's to be, it's up to me" -- then this attitude gets encouraged, and as you've implied (assuming I'm reading correctly) this is unhealthy. At least I think it is!

Similar Threads

  1. [ENFP] Do You Have a Strange Sense of Humor?
    By Chiharu in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 01-09-2013, 03:14 PM
  2. Replies: 24
    Last Post: 03-29-2011, 11:51 AM
  3. Fear as a driving force and mind made sense of Self
    By phobik in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-31-2009, 07:27 AM
  4. [INTJ] INTJs, how strong sense of self do you have?
    By Virtual ghost in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 04-16-2009, 01:55 AM
  5. [INFP] Heavy sense of self and other
    By jeeze in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 12-15-2008, 10:35 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO