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  1. #11
    Senior Member HotpinkHeatwave's Avatar
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    Authority. Do not want. If Authority gets in my way (especially if it's something I REALLY care about), I'll throw a fit. I'll FIGHT. Authority pisses me off to begin with.. But when someone has the nerve to get in my way? Ooh boy.

    Example?

    I went to the mall with a friend before a fundraiser. The fundraiser's theme was 'Wake the Dead', so we were pretty convincing zombies. In less than ten minutes, a mall cop told us to leave. I demanded to know why, and he didn't have a reasonable answer. I was pissed. Apparently, the mall manager wasn't in, otherwise I would have went straight there and BITCHED. Gah. Zombies have rights too!

  2. #12
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I've noticed this with ENFPs and I truly don't understand it. Why is authority such a big deal? Especially if it is a benign or good decision? What is it about the idea of any hierarchy that is so distasteful?

    And how should a person who is put in authority over an ENFP (teacher, boss, parent etc) then attempt to lead? Obviously even if you feel that you do not need specific rules, it doesn't work to have totally different rules for each individual within a classroom or within a workplace. I think guidelines are needed not just for the immature, but also the bigger the organization, the more built in accountability needs to happen because there is less individualized accountability possible.

    How do you diffuse those feelings of counterwill that are easily aroused in ENFPs? Is it giving them options within the boundaries? Is it allowing them to say their say even if it doesn't always mean that things will go their way, or is that seen as being all show and nothing real? Is it discussing the whys? What if they disagree and yet there isn't a lot of room for change?

    I can see this posing serious problems for an ENFP wanting to do well in school or advancing their career. It appears to some other types as a childish expression of "Your not the boss of me" without considering the request. I think that in many cases, they have valid ideas, but the way in which they are presented arouses a feeling of resistance within the audience they are expressing their thoughts to. I don't want to be dismissive of people, and yet even on the forum I sometimes see these rebel without a cause kind of threads and am inclined to react in an uncharacteristically dismissive and harsh way, whereas if they had contacted me saying that they had a concern that they needed help solving, I would take their worries much more seriously and do whatever I could to ameliorate the situation.

    I'm beginning to see that one way to diffuse some of it is to allow them to express their feelings rather than telling them how they must be and in what context (which just brings on more contrary feelings). I'm also seeing that it is important to them that feelings are validated (in a way that doesn't come naturally to me because I wouldn't appreciate it being done that way for me) and that everyone be given an equal voice regardless of who they are. They see ideas as very fluid and personal in their application - one person's junk is another person's treasure rather than looking for an objective sort of truth of what's right. (I don't mean in the sense of verifying data or something, but more making observations, generalizations etc out of which to make decisions). At least that's how it looks to me as an observer - not really sure that I've expressed it right - I can still see some problems with it.

    I freely admit that I am looking at this through Fe/Ti eyes and my intent is not to be offensive, but rather to understand what it looks like from your vantage point that would explain the very different kinds of reactions that seem to be typical of us respectively.

    I understand that this has something to do with the whole Fe/Fi issue, but I really am not sure how to go at it or how to see it in a way that makes sense to me somehow. Please help!

  3. #13
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Oh yeah - one more thing...

    What are you like when you are cast into positions of authority? Is it uncomfortable for you? Do you try to accommodate everyone? Are there times when you ignore certain members wishes, or do you feel the need for complete consensus before taking action? How do you react to it when people challenge you? What would be an example of the kind of reaction or words that would feel that someone was challenging your decision or judgement?

  4. #14
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Very good questions! I await glorious answers. And LadyX my avi be Sirius black from HP!

  5. #15
    The Duchess of Oddity Queen Kat's Avatar
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    Well, in the old days I used to fight against authority when I wasn't happy with it, but I always had to struggle on my own, so by now they already sucked too much soul out of me. I turned into a zombie, I just let them walk all over me.
    I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was obviously on. I used to fly myself and I said, "There's one terrible pilot."
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  6. #16
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    When younger I actively found ways to defy authority just for fun. Ne can find any loophole. It was entertaining, if morally questionable given the angst it would produce in others.

    Now I will still loophole if it is productive but often I actually find I embrace many rules-as I understand that to make progress you have to have some amount of order in a system. However I will work outside of the scope of the rules-beg forgiveness rather than ask permission-then plead ignorance. For this reason I can get just about anything accomplished and my sales team loves me. A part of this also involves being very sincere and authentic in my warping of the rules, not for own betterment but for the betterment of my customers-thus internally most folks are willing to help, not hinder.

    If I find a huge issue though-a worthy cause-I will stand up and go straight to the person at the top in terms of authority and highlight the issue to route around stupid rules or politics. With Te leaders, this works exceptionally well.

  7. #17
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    And how should a person who is put in authority over an ENFP (teacher, boss, parent etc) then attempt to lead? Obviously even if you feel that you do not need specific rules, it doesn't work to have totally different rules for each individual within a classroom or within a workplace. I think guidelines are needed not just for the immature, but also the bigger the organization, the more built in accountability needs to happen because there is less individualized accountability possible.

    I can see this posing serious problems for an ENFP wanting to do well in school or advancing their career. It appears to some other types as a childish expression of "Your not the boss of me" without considering the request. I think that in many cases, they have valid ideas, but the way in which they are presented arouses a feeling of resistance within the audience they are expressing their thoughts to. I don't want to be dismissive of people, and yet even on the forum I sometimes see these rebel without a cause kind of threads and am inclined to react in an uncharacteristically dismissive and harsh way, whereas if they had contacted me saying that they had a concern that they needed help solving, I would take their worries much more seriously and do whatever I could to ameliorate the situation.


    I freely admit that I am looking at this through Fe/Ti eyes and my intent is not to be offensive, but rather to understand what it looks like from your vantage point that would explain the very different kinds of reactions that seem to be typical of us respectively.

    I understand that this has something to do with the whole Fe/Fi issue, but I really am not sure how to go at it or how to see it in a way that makes sense to me somehow. Please help!
    So-I actually wanted to post this thought in the other thread as well but was rushed due to holiday travels-whenever you are utterly confused about why we do something-do this very weird little mental excercise.

    Imagine a world only made of up Te/Fi users (or Fe/Ti users). (I realize this seems artificial-but it seems to work very well...) Identify the natural pairings in this world-INTJ/ENFP as an illustrative example. Then identify what affect the behavioral pattern in question would have upon that intended recipient and how that behavior could alter the course of action of a larger group under the recipient's leadership.

    (Sorry it gets a bit Si detail oriented here....) Take the bizarre behavior in question-the enfp loud protest rather than a more subtle expression of an issue-and imagine it in the context of how you would get an INTJ to alter a course of action. The extroverted protest gets the attention of an INTJ. INTJs are exceptionally direct and lead with a very direct style thus to get their attention the complaint needs to be just as direct. The externalization of the Fi cause will cause the INTJ to recognize the moral implications, sort of hesitation-when normally they would be more likely to stay on the NiTeSe course of action. Once you have the INTJs attention, if the cause really is worthy-from both Te and Fi judgments-then you may sway the TeSe course of action accordingly. This particular pattern also works well with ENTJs if the emo component is toned down and it is an exceptionally good cause backed up with data. (ENTJs love me) It can work with ESTJs but you have to be very careful to mold the protest into a controlled frame-they will still find it weird-but oddly admirable. ISTJs need less Fi but more Te. Other ENFPs think it is perfectly normal.

    This loud protest style totally backfires with EXTP leadership. The ISFJs are horrified and the ESFJ baffled.

    So there is a good reason we protest-we stand up with an Fi cause to influence a Te led/structured society-which totally backfires when applied to an Fe audience. The mix of Te/Fe in the group in question seems to determine how effective the protest is in achieving change.

    ^^We dont really think about this modification of the Te power structure consciously. I cant emphasize how weird that would be. It just seems to be the results or a very innate reactionary response on our part. It feels VERY compelling, authentic and sincere, even if it looks totally bonkers. It has to be authentic for the Te users to trust us it seems...thus that passionate, sincere undertone really seems to influence them.

    Since it is so innate however you will see it backfire when we are under emo stress or we are taking an external pain and extrapolating it to others around us. Every one should get a say-then their issue will be addressed via Te vs Fi judgment. "I recognize this seems unfair or hurtful and I can see why. However for reasons X, Y and Z we must continue forward in this direction."

    There is also a very natural innate maturity component-as I mentioned regarding myself and authority. When young we protest everything-sort of like we need some practice to find what battles are really worth standing up for and which rules are worth fighting against. As we age, we gain a greater appreciation for following rules-but still maintain the ability to stand up when an issue is very important, and influence changes for the betterment of others. We selectively pick our battles. I suspect this is a Te and Si maturation.

    For fun-imagine an INFJ/ENTP interaction in an Fe/Ti world with Fe leadership. The motive may be similar-to help others by altering the path of the group-but the way that is done stands in stark contrast to the tactics used in a Te led group. I suspect Ti is used on a one-on-one basis to influence more subtly, then the larger group dynamics will be modified more by Fe interactions.

    ^^However these are just my sloppy ideas based upon what I have seen in my workplace, thus I would love correction and feedback...

  8. #18
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    for me it usually just means that i will choose not to work for people who's practices i don't agree with.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #19
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I've noticed this with ENFPs and I truly don't understand it. Why is authority such a big deal? Especially if it is a benign or good decision? What is it about the idea of any hierarchy that is so distasteful?
    I think it comes down to Fi. Ti doms/auxes have a similar distaste for authority in my experience. Extraverted judgment is built around authority and hierarchy, introverted judgment loathes it, and much prefers all parties to be "equals." As to why the distaste for authority appears stronger in ENFPs than INFPs I don't know, maybe Ne plays a role as well.
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  10. #20
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    Originally posted by freeeekyyy
    As to why the distaste for authority appears stronger in ENFPs than INFPs I don't know, maybe Ne plays a role as well.
    I'd say its because Ne makes us more inclined to want freedom so that if an oppertunity presents itself we can seize it; I can see authority greatly disliking anythingthat upsets the expected order of things or offers new ideas that go against the rule. I imagine INFP's hate equally as much but are slightly more willing to just secretly go along with the flow to maintain harmony.

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