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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I'm not sure whether I got this right, but you seem to be setting tradition and intellectualism against each other, which I'm not sure is logical... for example, the Jesuits have a long tradition of intellectualism, as do Benedictines, and both are rooted firmly in history.

    Tradition itself doesn't oppose intellectualism, but some traditions do.
    That wasn't what I meant... I meant that Si wouldn't drive a person to examine their beliefs the way that Ti would. Not that tradition opposes intellectualism... more that the Fi values it less to begin with, and Si doesn't do much to bolster it, and may simply accept tradition as a substitute (the word, not you) for examination of the beliefs. With INFJ's, you would get the impression based on functional order that Ni would already have a bent in that direction on it's own, and Ti would do even more to support that.

    Of course, after reading about Isabel being an INFP (thanks Gabe), and some INxJ's not being even slightly interested in that kind of thing, I now think it's not related to type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Intellectualism isn't always a good thing. Reason is only as good as the knowledge it is based upon. A certain amount of faith outside of the intellectual is wise. I suppose that makes me anti-intellectual. But I don't think it came from an external source, just a mistrust in "intellectual" explanations for things that just didn't "feel" right.
    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I understood that you meant that. I am an INTJ/INFJ mixture, and I have no interest in the classical subjects you mentioned. I took an interest in classical music a few years ago, but only because I felt guilted into it. I was afraid people would judge me and think me uncultured. For the record, I hated the Classical music, especially symphonies, but I loved the music of the Romance period and the Baroque period. (I hate jazz music too - how very un-INTJ of me!)
    Kiddo: You mean that you'll believe in something, long-term, just because it feels right, even if you have no other reason for doing so?

    INTJMom: You would take the Romantic and Baroque periods over the Enlightenment and Renaissance? But... there's so much less resonance and meaning.

    You two scare me. :horor: :horor:

    I'm going to hide now...

  2. #22
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    INTJMom: You would take the Romantic and Baroque periods over the Enlightenment and Renaissance? But... there's so much less resonance and meaning.

    I think she was meaning the Baroque period in music, roughly between 1600 and 1750 AD, but it overlaps with the classical period. In my opinion it was the finest age of music.

    Baroque (1600 – 1760)
    Classical (1730 – 1820)
    Romantic (1815 – 1910)

    Many think Spinoza was the first great thinker of the Age of Reason (Enlightenment) that it ended in 1804.

  3. #23
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    ...
    INTJMom: You would take the Romantic and Baroque periods over the Enlightenment and Renaissance? But... there's so much less resonance and meaning.
    ...
    I don't know.
    I may not have studied that time period.
    I thought the time periods went: Baroque, Classical, Romance.
    I don't know what is before or after that.
    All I know is that I was not being an anti-intellectual snob or a crass moron when I used to say I hated Classical music.
    I truly hate it.

  4. #24
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I think she was meaning the Baroque period in music, roughly between 1600 and 1750 AD, but it overlaps with the classical period. In my opinion it was the finest age of music.

    Baroque (1600 – 1760)
    Classical (1730 – 1820)
    Romantic (1815 – 1910)

    ...
    Ah yes. Thank you, my love.

    Vivaldi is my favorite and I like Mozart and Schubert also.

    Can't stand Bach or Beethoven.

  5. #25
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I think she was meaning the Baroque period in music, roughly between 1600 and 1750 AD, but it overlaps with the classical period. In my opinion it was the finest age of music.

    Baroque (1600 – 1760)
    Classical (1730 – 1820)
    Romantic (1815 – 1910)
    Oh... I thought she meant that she preferred the Philosophies of the eras by those names. If it's music, that doesn't bother me. Any music tastes are fine, of course.

    I'm glad you aren't an anti-intellectual INTJMom... that would make me nervous for some reason.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Ah yes. Thank you, my love.

    Vivaldi is my favorite and I like Mozart and Schubert also.

    Can't stand Bach or Beethoven.
    Yes, I love Vivaldi, Albinoni, Mozart, Schubert, Handel, some Bach, some Beethoven. Some of Bach and Beethoven's works seem more Baroque than others. jmo.

    I also like Tchaikovsky and Rodrigo in the Romantic period.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Oh... I thought she meant that she preferred the Philosophies of the eras by those names. If it's music, that doesn't bother me. Any music tastes are fine, of course.

    I'm glad you aren't an anti-intellectual INTJMom... that would make me nervous for some reason.
    The older I get, the more Blake makes sense. Novalis too. Blake understood what Jung undersood. Change cannot come from standards impossed from the external, but that one must go within and find out who and what one is and make the change from the inner to the outer. People tend to throw the baby of spirituality out with the bathwater of cant and religious dogma.

    No change will last that does not follow this formula of from inner to outer, this is what many Romantics understood.

    Mock On, Mock On, Voltaire, Rousseau
    by William Blake

    Mock on, mock on, Voltaire, Rousseau:
    Mock on, mock on: tis all in vain!
    You throw the sand against the wind,
    And the wind blows it back again.

    And every sand becomes a gem
    Reflected in the beams divine;
    Blown back they blind the mocking eye,
    But still in Israel's path they shine.

    The atoms of Democritus
    And Newton's particles of light
    Are sands upon the Red Sea shore,
    Where Israel's tents do shine so bright.

  8. #28
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Kiddo: You mean that you'll believe in something, long-term, just because it feels right, even if you have no other reason for doing so?
    Only in cases where my empathy is in conflict with the logic. It's like out of that movie "I Robot". There are just times where I can perfectly relate to the logic, but it seems too terribly heartless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #29
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am not meaning so much lack of ability to understand as unwillingness to explore either due to non-interest or extreme negative prejudice. Maybe even violent rejection of such topics at times.

    Yes, that is why I thought it would make a good discussion topic.
    Not sure whether you'd consider me an INFP or an INTP - my bet is that most folks here would consider me an INFP (not willing to commit either way myself ). I have, and have basically always had, no interest, or even an active disinterest, in many of:

    Or do you think that the inward pull of both introversion and intuition would always bring an INF around to exploring the worlds of classical philosophy, literature, art history, classical music, poetry etc?
    I wouldn't describe myself as anti-intellectual, though. Anti-Cultural-Intellectual, maybe - especially when it comes to literature and poetry. I love to read... but I've never read what would be called a classical great book with anything but disinterest (granted - this usually came at the command of a teacher - "I have chosen this for you to read - do it."). I can appreciate that "hmm, this is well written" or "wow, it took a lot of work to do this" - but it doesn't appeal, and I certainly wouldn't pursue it. A good deal of this is my desire to "get on with it" - many classical books seem to just plod along, and I get bored and turned off. For philosophy, it can be interesting but I'd rather have a synopsis, I'm pretty bleh on art history (and most art in general, to be honest), and although I enjoy some classical music, I certainly don't prefer it over other types of music (rock, 80's, etc.).

    I *do* buy and enjoy more science-intellectual books. Textbooks on nuclear physics, terraforming (yeah, I'm a nerd), linguistics, anthropology, etc. So it's not that I'm just interested in pop culture as opposed to classical culture - more that I'm not particularly interested in culture at all, or that I consider *my* culture to include more science fiction and fantasy fiction and less traditionally "culturally important" works.

    Background-wise... I grew up in a very SJ family (everyone but me). School was to get yourself the background to get a job, and there was no pressure (or really presence of) classical culture when I was growing up. I've always been heavily prejudiced against "cultural" education - to me it always seemed like I was being graded objectively on my subjective opinion - which often didn't match the official one. This did not make me happy - especially as grades were so important to my parents - I quite honestly took it as a personal affront at times.

    Oops... late and need to run - will check back tomorrow.


  10. #30
    almost nekkid scantilyclad's Avatar
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    I think it is possible as well.
    Don't get me wrong i love philosophy and i love literature but i almost can't stand classical music, and have no interest in art history. I like to write poems, but i hate reading them.

    i consider myself to be a bit intellectual although i do enjoy a bit of pop culture.
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