[Fi] INFP/ENFP: Do you feel "safe" to openly & freely share your thoughts about Fi here?

[Lady_X]

oooohhh...i see.

 

[A window to the soul]

INP's make their own rules.

 

[kyuuei]

Hm. I posted what I did because, to me.. to put aside Fi is to put aside a good part of my personality as well. It's a major function. To me, the question is simply, do you feel safe to be yourself? And the answer is, I've never felt entirely safe to be entirely myself ever. It's not a very safe world out there, and very few people give you relief from it.

I suppose I was getting at, if people had a specific definition for Fi in terms of what they feel it is, it helps to know what they truly feel safe about or not. I'm a bit confused on if the OP wants us to feel safe talking about Fi, or talking about ourselves as Fi users. At least with a definition + response, we could see what people were trying to get at, and clearing up miscommunications is always a good thing. I think.

 

[tkae.]

I feel safe enough to discuss Fi, mostly because i can just steamroll over anyone trying to shut me down on it. I can understand it if other Fi users don't feel so bold though...

I tend not to discuss Fi from an Fi perspective though, as the inherently artificial nature of type means I could end up being off the mark. I use Te.

Well, my reason for not feeling "safe" is along those same lines.

I'll talk about Fi. But the fact that it's necessary for me to "steamroll", although I typically just give the finger and tell them to fuck off instead of actually pushing back, leads me to say that it's not "safe", since a "safe" place is a place where I wouldn't have to do that sort of thing.

 

[Thalassa]

To answer the OP, yes and no. My thoughts:

- When I see another threat about INFPs or Fi I wince a little. This is partly out of embarrassment and sympathy for the other types because of just how ubiquitous they are. It is also because I know they all but invite unjustified belligerent attacks on us. Like OA said, it bothers me that Fi users (INFPs in particular) are frequently treated as a joke by so many. No matter how reasonable and thought-provoking these discussions are, they will nonetheless treated as just silly, whining, emotional nonsense; despite the fact that almost all Fi discussions are nothing of the sort. In fact I almost always approach them in a measured, emotionally distanced manner and resent being written off as a hysterical woman for simply wishing to discuss an emotion based subject matter. It is even worse when I seek to defend myself and am accused of being 'too sensitive'. :rolli:
-Fi doms/aux are introspective by nature. Our personalities, demeanours and motivations deeply intrigue us and the endless threads exploring these are merely an expression of our type. I really don't see that I should be consistantly attacked for my natural inclinations. And to reiterate what someone said earlier, Fi Ne users also like to cover the same ground over and try to squeeze out some new significance from it. Again this is a type based behaviour. I often feel that many NTs in particular are unwilling to attempt to understand us on our own terms. I am so damn tolerant and accommodating to others and their differences; can't people return the favour.
- On the other hand, Fi doms/aux are inclined to be a little to precious about the function. I am fine with people here saying they find it fascinating and love it to death as long as we acknowledge that everyone feels that way about their dom and aux functions. There can be a degree of misunderstanding here, however, as Fi users often speak from a very subjective experience as a way of stimulating discussion. I think we have to be more careful in framing our responses so as not to appear to be treating our experiences as somehow special or tearing down other functions/types in order to define or bolster our own. We can get a bit carried away when given the chance to speak frankly about these things and perhaps need to be little more mindful of how we express ourselves. Granted we are not the worst offenders in this regard by any means.

I must say on the whole I feel happy with talking openly about Fi around here due to the shear numbers of us. It would be nice if I didn't have to constantly brace myself for the inevitable attacks but they don't put me off too much.

For some reason I thought of Ibsen's "A Doll's House."

 

[CrystalViolet]

Truth is, no, I don't.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

What the heck happened while I was gone. I was off the forum for a couple of weeks and now I'm reading about some evil Fi thread that involved legal threats, etc. Holy macaroni! If someone would give a brief and high level summary (without stirring bad feelings / ill will up again) of the antics I missed, then this would be appreciated.

So as for the original post, I think it's clear that some INFPs and ENFPs feel under threat. So I'm all for creating a safe place for them. Why not?

I guess I'll have to wait to hear about the aforementioned antics before I can give a more complete response.

 

[Rail Tracer]

Here and the part of the thread that went into the graveyard.

 

[Ivy]

I'd have to say that no, I don't really feel fully at liberty to discuss Fi from my perspective- but it has mostly been because of the dismissive reaction of a small number of other Fi-doms to my input in previous discussions. I think we Fi users need to be more careful to accept that others' experiences of Fi may differ from our own.

 

[Biaxident]

I don't know from Fi...

But if I feel the urge to post something, I post. And if someone doesn't like it, well tough shit.

Considering some of the wackadoo, out in left field, crap, that has been posted on this forum. NO one has any right to complain unless it's vicious and hurtful. And I mean posted by all types.

It's the internet. Where all the weirdos come to play in virtual anonymity.

Try real life. It's much harder to be different, and not get abused.

 

[Biaxident]

I don't know from Fi...

But if I feel the urge to post something, I post. And if someone doesn't like it, well tough shit.

Considering some of the wackadoo, out in left field, crap, that has been posted on this forum. NO one has any right to complain unless it's vicious and hurtful. And I mean posted by all types.

It's the internet. Where all the weirdos come to play in virtual anonymity.

Try real life. It's much harder to be different, and not get abused.

 

[sculpting]

PB,

I can talk about Fi-as long as I dont use Fi as the tool of communication. As long as I use Te to discuss Fi, then I have a barrier between me and the other person. When I begin to feel Fi defensive, I step back and then try and ask ask the person why they are acting the way they are, then try and understand if there is an irreconcialable diff, a misunderstanding, or perhaps the other person just needs some downtime to cool off.

But the conflicts as of late are far, FAR more fascinating as they are not simple Fi-Fe conflicts about values.

Note that Fi/Te users assume the idea is an objective thing....the idea is not me. Thus the idea is fully open for critique.

It is projection on our part, to assume that the Fe/Ti users feel the same way about the sharing of ideas.

The conflicts actually are more about how ideas are shared, who has a right to share ideas, how social acceptance influences the sharing of the idea, and how each us responds to our ideas being critiqued. When I took my MBTI course, the topic of idea evaluation came up. The INFP, ESTJ, ISTJ and myself treated ideas as open for criticism-the assumption is that we need to find the best idea to meet the needs of the group. The ENFJ and four ISFJs agreed that if you critiqued their idea, you were critiquing them.

After watching groups of NTPs at work-they dont openly poke ideas. They are not highly questioning in public. Instead they use "we" almost exclusively, they pose critique as questions, or discuss critique of ideas one-on-one offline. They will also talk with every person before the meeting, build a consensus, so when the idea is presented in public everyone is already in agreement. Public disagreement is done VERY gently. "Have we considered this?" Almost to not call out any one person as being the originator of a bad idea. I actually had an INFJ say "A bad idea machine is a bad idea".

If at this point you very loudly question the idea, the Fe/Ti group becomes very...angry, tense...and my ENTP says it looks like that person is very selfish or self centered-as they drag the whole group out of pseudo harmony to be disruptive-by very openly questioning the idea in terms of "you".

Here at the forum, I dont think the Fe users ever mean to do this. But just like us with our defensive Fi, they have some level of Fe values involved. If we poke too long I bet it cant help but eventually pass the boundary of tolerance and result in frustration and confrontation of their part-as our innate communications mannerisms stomp all over their Fe values.

I think it may be an irresolvable issue, but the value may be in learning about this here-recognizing we will never, ever agree, then using the tool in the real world to smooth our communication skills with those we care for or interact with.

But just my thoughts and sloppy ideas, so please take whatever is of value.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

PB,

I can talk about Fi-as long as I dont use Fi as the tool of communication. As long as I use Te to discuss Fi, then I have a barrier between me and the other person. When I begin to feel Fi defensive, I step back and then try and ask ask the person why they are acting the way they are, then try and understand if there is an irreconcialable diff, a misunderstanding, or perhaps the other person just needs some downtime to cool off.

But the conflicts as of late are far, FAR more fascinating as they are not simple Fi-Fe conflicts about values.

Note that Fi/Te users assume the idea is an objective thing....the idea is not me. Thus the idea is fully open for critique.

It is projection on our part, to assume that the Fe/Ti users feel the same way about the sharing of ideas.

The conflicts actually are more about how ideas are shared, who has a right to share ideas, how social acceptance influences the sharing of the idea, and how each us responds to our ideas being critiqued. When I took my MBTI course, the topic of idea evaluation came up. The INFP, ESTJ, ISTJ and myself treated ideas as open for criticism-the assumption is that we need to find the best idea to meet the needs of the group. The ENFJ and four ISFJs agreed that if you critiqued their idea, you were critiquing them.

After watching groups of NTPs at work-they dont openly poke ideas. They are not highly questioning in public. Instead they use "we" almost exclusively, they pose critique as questions, or discuss critique of ideas one-on-one offline. They will also talk with every person before the meeting, build a consensus, so when the idea is presented in public everyone is already in agreement. Public disagreement is done VERY gently. "Have we considered this?" Almost to not call out any one person as being the originator of a bad idea. I actually had an INFJ say "A bad idea machine is a bad idea".

If at this point you very loudly question the idea, the Fe/Ti group becomes very...angry, tense...and my ENTP says it looks like that person is very selfish or self centered-as they drag the whole group out of pseudo harmony to be disruptive-by very openly questioning the idea in terms of "you".

Here at the forum, I dont think the Fe users ever mean to do this. But just like us with our defensive Fi, they have some level of Fe values involved. If we poke too long I bet it cant help but eventually pass the boundary of tolerance and result in frustration and confrontation of their part-as our innate communications mannerisms stomp all over their Fe values.

I think it may be an irresolvable issue, but the value may be in learning about this here-recognizing we will never, ever agree, then using the tool in the real world to smooth our communication skills with those we care for or interact with.

But just my thoughts and sloppy ideas, so please take whatever is of value.

Orobas,

I find this post fascinating. But I'm not sure I understand it fully.

You're saying that Fi/Te users find ideas objective. But this seems contrary to the subjectivity of Fi.

On the other hand, I've noticed that many Fe users (INFJs in particular) assume that just because you debate their idea that you are criticizing them.

In other words, I see it both ways. Can you flesh out a bit?

Mucho gracias! I always love your posts. Thanks for sharing your insights with others.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Thanks all for your continued feedback. Thanks to all for letting this thread play through.

I think Fe is more well-received because it's simply easier to describe without delving into that.

Expand that Noon; do you mean it's easier for folks to understand, or easier for you to explain?

I don't feel "unsafe" to discuss Fi, but I do get a sense that any discussion of Fi from actual Fi-doms (and Fi-aux) people will be belittled, mocked, and eventually suppressed, yes. The massive Fe/Fi gone awry thread was actually heartening in some ways; it was allowed to develop into honest discussion. I already see this thread being subjected to a discrediting; it will be written off as whiny & without provocation because that is easier to do than address any actual points. It's almost like people are threatened by a Fi-dom having an opinion. We're only cool as long as we passively agree & keep quiet. God forbid we have a spine. The double standard regarding this aspect with NTs annoys me (Why can't I be flippant on occasion also?). If anyone were to call them out on making emotionally laden posts, they'd get all pissy about it & deny it. I'm cool to admit I can be sensitive & emotional, but doing so just provides ammunition for others to invalidate your words. Not to mention, I don't think an emotional & sensitive response is invalid anyway; why are people so threatened by non-stoic communication? It seems to me it's because they don't handle their own passionate side well, and they assume others cannot either; their only solution is to put a damper on it. Meanwhile, the F types were getting along just fine.

@bold purple: I realize the risk, indeed. For myself, there's the social risk of being ostracized. Some folks will brush this thread off as whininess, I know. I am hoping there are wiser folks though who will actually hear what's being said.

Perhaps the trend I see playing out will be revealed more clearly to others on the forum ... a trend that has long-term consequences to the forum as a whole. Without checks & balances in place, the forum will weight too far to one end of the spectrum, where everyone just goes along to get along or decides to leave, or chooses to participate only in limited ways, such as blogs or sub-forums.

As for the rest of the post, much resonates here; @bold black: it' a great question. I would posit that most people don't trust their emotions of the moment, thus emotional displays from others alert them to the same source for potential errors in judgement. Personally, I "get emotional" on the outside almost exclusively after much deliberation. The moment-to-moment stuff is for me alone. So my emotions only surface when I feel they actually DO make sense to express.

Some emotions are fleeting, and irrational, agreed; I examine them for what they tell me about myself. There's a wealth of self-knowledge in there, if I can face it openly. My sense is that most types choose to avoid that level of introspection.

I noticed that when an INTJ made a Fi thread some time ago, the discussion was validated by others, and the viewpoint from the INTJ was taken seriously (can't remember the poster name....sorry). That's frustrating. It's not that the thread was not interesting or not accurate, but it illustrates how Fi discussed by Fi-ers in a Fi way is invalidated by comparison. I wonder if we had "NT" under our avatars if our comments would be taken differently (I think so)*.

uumlau's thread I believe ... in some ways, I do question making my name PeaceBaby and listing my type so openly. People make too many inferences based on them.

I don't even care if other non-Fi types don't want to participate, but why they have to pop their head in to do nothing more than make snarky comments in an attempt to derail the thread is beyond me. That is my observation. I don't plan on NOT talking about Fi or function theory any less than I have been or in any different way (I don't care about popularity or being a voice of dissent), but I will continue to expect my view to be disregarded by anyone who is NOT a Fi-dom or aux. It is funny how much the Fi-dom and aux people actually AGREE in these discussions though; it seems we grasp each other just fine in our communication styles (exploring feelings, tossing out ideas, comparing notes, making conjectures). I find much more similarity emerges than differences, and exploring the disagreements can be interesting when viewed through the lens of the enneagram. No one is trying to "win" or "prove" anything, which I guess is foreign to T types. It's called sharing & exploration.

Yes, I see the same pattern play out too. Insightful comments.

*It's also interesting how that loooong Ni thread was explored in a similar vein, and no one got all pissy about it.

Naturally; after all, it's hard to argue with g*ds.

Personally, I always feel safe to discuss things in a fi manner. If someone questions me, I'm willing to answer. The often complimentary condescending tone doesn't bother me; i'm not out to convince anybody of anything I may hold to be true; because people are generally set in their own ways anyway.

I am glad that you still feel open to share despite the undertones you note @bold. Thanks for talking about your perspective Hopelandic. Do you take precautions in your phrasing, or do you feel you let all your natural Fi expressions come to the surface? Is there a part you keep guarded?

To answer the OP, yes and no. My thoughts:

- When I see another threat about INFPs or Fi I wince a little. This is partly out of embarrassment and sympathy for the other types because of just how ubiquitous they are. It is also because I know they all but invite unjustified belligerent attacks on us. Like OA said, it bothers me that Fi users (INFPs in particular) are frequently treated as a joke by so many. No matter how reasonable and thought-provoking these discussions are, they will nonetheless treated as just silly, whining, emotional nonsense; despite the fact that almost all Fi discussions are nothing of the sort. In fact I almost always approach them in a measured, emotionally distanced manner and resent being written off as a hysterical woman for simply wishing to discuss an emotion based subject matter. It is even worse when I seek to defend myself and am accused of being 'too sensitive'. :rolli:
-Fi doms/aux are introspective by nature. Our personalities, demeanours and motivations deeply intrigue us and the endless threads exploring these are merely an expression of our type. I really don't see that I should be consistantly attacked for my natural inclinations. And to reiterate what someone said earlier, Fi Ne users also like to cover the same ground over and try to squeeze out some new significance from it. Again this is a type based behaviour. I often feel that many NTs in particular are unwilling to attempt to understand us on our own terms. I am so damn tolerant and accommodating to others and their differences; can't people return the favour.
- On the other hand, Fi doms/aux are inclined to be a little to precious about the function. I am fine with people here saying they find it fascinating and love it to death as long as we acknowledge that everyone feels that way about their dom and aux functions. There can be a degree of misunderstanding here, however, as Fi users often speak from a very subjective experience as a way of stimulating discussion. I think we have to be more careful in framing our responses so as not to appear to be treating our experiences as somehow special or tearing down other functions/types in order to define or bolster our own. We can get a bit carried away when given the chance to speak frankly about these things and perhaps need to be little more mindful of how we express ourselves. Granted we are not the worst offenders in this regard by any means.

I must say on the whole I feel happy with talking openly about Fi around here due to the shear numbers of us. It would be nice if I didn't have to constantly brace myself for the inevitable attacks but they don't put me off too much.

Thanks for that whole post Southern Kross - you have summarized your perspective and the issues very well. @bold: Do you think Fi has a tendency to undermine the experiences of others? I tend to think we are soo accepting that we expect to receive the same in return, but what's frustrating is that doesn't happen very often.

And taking into account your next point: Due to the sheer numbers of us, why do you think we are not taken seriously? Should we be more supportive of each other, more protective of each other?

Hm. I posted what I did because, to me.. to put aside Fi is to put aside a good part of my personality as well. It's a major function. To me, the question is simply, do you feel safe to be yourself? And the answer is, I've never felt entirely safe to be entirely myself ever. It's not a very safe world out there, and very few people give you relief from it.

True that ...

@bold: yes. Do you let your "Fi hair" hang down?

I suppose I was getting at, if people had a specific definition for Fi in terms of what they feel it is, it helps to know what they truly feel safe about or not. I'm a bit confused on if the OP wants us to feel safe talking about Fi, or talking about ourselves as Fi users. At least with a definition + response, we could see what people were trying to get at, and clearing up miscommunications is always a good thing. I think.

What's your definition of Fi kyuuei? Share and let's see where that takes us here then.

I'll talk about Fi. But the fact that it's necessary for me to "steamroll", although I typically just give the finger and tell them to fuck off instead of actually pushing back, leads me to say that it's not "safe", since a "safe" place is a place where I wouldn't have to do that sort of thing.

Thanks for that tkae. Interesting thoughts on the use of Te in these situations; I hadn't thought of it like this.

Truth is, no, I don't.

I'd have to say that no, I don't really feel fully at liberty to discuss Fi from my perspective- but it has mostly been because of the dismissive reaction of a small number of other Fi-doms to my input in previous discussions. I think we Fi users need to be more careful to accept that others' experiences of Fi may differ from our own.

Hearing your POV is very much of interest to me Ivy; I would love to hear more. You make an excellent point as well about inclusivity. Thanks for your post.

Considering some of the wackadoo, out in left field, crap, that has been posted on this forum. NO one has any right to complain unless it's vicious and hurtful. And I mean posted by all types.

Agreed; my point I guess though is that I do find people hurtful here, when they mock the viewpoints of others, and that this behaviour undermines the well-being of the whole group. Should mocking the viewpoints of others be tolerated here?

{...}

Need time to respond to all that; will do so soon.

Thanks to all for the time to respond and consider.

 

[highlander]

This thread has been most illuminating in terms of understanding how the Fi users feel.

To me, the question is simply, do you feel safe to be yourself? And the answer is, I've never felt entirely safe to be entirely myself ever. It's not a very safe world out there, and very few people give you relief from it.

When we were children, we learned that certain things were not accepted by others and we modified our behaviors to conform. Everybody does this and I am not sure anybody is ever really truly safe to be themselves except with those who are very close to them. It's sad but it is true.

As I was thinking about all of the Fe/Fi conflicts over time and the level of intensity in these conflicts, I have to admit not being able to fully grasp why it occurs. I wonder if it has something to do with this.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Carl-Jung-and-the-Shadow-An-Introduction

Finally, it appears to me that while Fi users are very attuned to how they feel, they don't necessarily share those feelings with others and that behavior isn't limited to the forum. Isn't that part of the issue? That is, to not feel comfortable sharing these things with others would be inherent to type?

 

[Noon]

Expand that Noon; do you mean it's easier for folks to understand, or easier for you to explain?

Both, though the latter almost because of the former.

What is the starting point for a value? How does a value make itself known?
What drives/demotivates Feeling? What is most important in the world according to Feeling?

^ Four common Qs which I'll use for example, when explaining Jung irl to people just getting interested.

If I answer for myself according to Fe (in order: studying cause and effect, generally always is, balanced and harmonious social systems/perpetual turmoil, considering and including others and their needs on all levels), listeners get it much sooner, almost as if by leapfrogging into 'Fe is like Thinking in the people sense'. They easily accept it because it's something which is already somewhat idealized in our culture.

Fi can be dismissed or viewed with skepticism simply based upon its premise. At times even by virtue of the terms that I feel are best used, its validity is invariably questioned at some point and may mark the beginning of the listener's comparing it with other 'mystical' or New Agey things that have little justifiable basis in reality in their own eyes, or otherwise simply not taking it too seriously. For some reason, it's not as easy to stay firmly grounded in the realm of cognition when it's Fi. So many other things like emotion and faith and spirituality always come creeping up as well. People need something "real" to tie it to, but in the process we can end up discussing that "real" thing instead of reeling it back in toward Fi. Or sometimes we have returned to Fi, but the "real" thing has colored the lens so much that the listener may still be using it as an overlay.

I think it's safe to say that there's no easy leapfrog comparison for Fi to the others. It can of course be compared to Ti, but it still takes more effort to bridge them when considering both processing as well as conclusion. After I have drilled in that Fi isn't emotion, reactions can range from 'Fi-ers are difficult and melodramatic teenagers' to 'Fi-ers are misguided with their priorities'. In both cases, character is drawn under equal scrutiny. The "solution" can be a suggestion to 'grow up', 'focus on real problems', 'be thankful for -these- things instead of focusing on -those-'... All operate around a presumption of silliness and immaturity on the part of the Fi-er. Most listeners who see the validity are self-typed Fi users (even ESFP) or Fe users who are committed to tolerance [even if in the absence of acceptance]. Self-typed Ti-ers tend to think both Feeling functions are silly.

So many people are stuck in logical skepticism mode because that is what our culture places such a high value upon nowadays. How can I explain it well enough to keep them open? By changing the terminology? By breaking each thing down into sequential components? I feel that I possibly could, but that is dancing around the point and destroys exactly what Fi is. With much of the 'refining' I've seen of Fi, it only seems as if refiners are trying to take it as close as they can to Ti without having to call it that.

edit: To clarify, most of the above examples apply to discussions which are/were not held on this site, but still influence my willingness to discuss my experience of Fi. I'm also aware that my idea of Fi probably isn't the best according to NFPs and I don't mean to imply that it is. Terms I've used have been those used here that I agree with, along with those which I feel describe me and my experience individually: 'feeling tones', 'internal essence', things dealing with purpose, identity, duality, inspiration, internal struggles, and internal knowing. On average, it's dismissed as melodramatic and New Agey.

 

[Southern Kross]

^ Thanks noon. That's an interesting exploration of Fi from the outside. You address all the problems in defining and interpreting Fi really well.

Thanks for that whole post Southern Kross - you have summarized your perspective and the issues very well. @bold: Do you think Fi has a tendency to undermine the experiences of others? I tend to think we are soo accepting that we expect to receive the same in return, but what's frustrating is that doesn't happen very often.

I don't think INFPs have any such tendency to do so openly IRL. I think we do it in our heads occasionally and its more in the form of arrogant pride in our skills and virtues.

To explain it through my thought process: I have been made to feel like a defective human being much of my life and instead of surrendering to self-loathing, it can result in the opposite reaction - an unspoken sense of superiority. This is not pride in my suffering but a belief that "even though you think you're better than me, you're too stupid/uncultured/out-of-touch to realize I'm actually better than you" (I've mentioned this before as a INFP "I suck!"/"I rule!" thing). This attitude can leak into general conversation inadvertently when I'm not actually under attack but nonetheless go into that mode. This very rarely happens noticeably IRL, but it does seem to come out more on the internet for some reason, particularly when discussing Fi. But honestly I don't think of it as literally looking down on others because I readily acknowledge it to be a rather silly indulgence of mine that simply crosses the line occasionally. Others, however, are not aware of this and may take offence. I think that on the whole we are pretty pleasant and understanding.

And taking into account your next point: Due to the sheer numbers of us, why do you think we are not taken seriously? Should we be more supportive of each other, more protective of each other?

Good question. I'm not sure. I have often wondered that if INFPs were more common in the general population would we be considered less 'weird'. It seems not. Perhaps the 'weirdness' is inherent. As for protecting one another: I'm not sure that it would help. What do you think?

This thread has been most illuminating in terms of understanding how the Fi users feel.

When we were children, we learned that certain things were not accepted by others and we modified our behaviors to conform. Everybody does this and I am not sure anybody is ever really truly safe to be themselves except with those who are very close to them. It's sad but it is true.

As I was thinking about all of the Fe/Fi conflicts over time and the level of intensity in these conflicts, I have to admit not being able to fully grasp why it occurs. I wonder if it has something to do with this.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Carl-Jung-and-the-Shadow-An-Introduction

Finally, it appears to me that while Fi users are very attuned to how they feel, they don't necessarily share those feelings with others and that behavior isn't limited to the forum. Isn't that part of the issue? That is, to not feel comfortable sharing these things with others would be inherent to type?

This certainly may be a factor.

I express myself more readily here than I do IRL (but nowhere near totally open, of course) and I think being in a situation where you are talking about things you normally wouldn't, may throw off the Fi user. For one thing we aren't as practiced in framing our such inner thoughts and feelings in an effective manner externally and can misrepresent ourselves without realising, but also we could be more sensitive to having this, normally concealed (possibly intimate) piece of ourselves, come under scrutiny.

Perhaps our relative frankness here, in comparison to real life, is confusing and deceptive to others. And maybe we don't sufficiently communicate how personal and close to our heart some of the things we are expressing really are.

 

[Rail Tracer]

Thanks for that whole post Southern Kross - you have summarized your perspective and the issues very well. @bold: Do you think Fi has a tendency to undermine the experiences of others? I tend to think we are soo accepting that we expect to receive the same in return, but what's frustrating is that doesn't happen very often.

I don't think INFPs have any such tendency to do so openly IRL. I think we do it in our heads occasionally and its more in the form of arrogant pride in our skills and virtues.

I don't expect the same from others, nor do I expect the other person to think that I should immediately accept him/her. However, this probably has to do more with experience rather than Fi itself.

In the sense of accepting other peoples faults? I do expect just a bit that others are willing to accept my faults just as I do with them. I don't expect other people to be perfect, nor do I expect others to think I am either. I do expect that the other person to be able to be able to "develop" themselves.

an unspoken sense of superiority. This is not pride in my suffering but a belief that "even though you think you're better than me, you're too stupid/uncultured/out-of-touch to realize I'm actually better than you"

Narcissism?

Sure, I can admit to this. Some of what I post here can end up sounding something like that. Especially when it feels like I am either being looked down upon (too a certain degree) or that I feel very strongly about something that someone else opposes.

Debating is made to look like it since your trying to prove to others that you are right (unless you can see the value of the other person's post.)

As a whole, I've been made to "follow" the footsteps of other people for quite a big chunk of my life. I don't see it as me being defective, but it makes it harder on myself on knowing what I want to do rather than what others want me to do. Because of this, I'm rather indecisive unless something evokes a strong response.

 

[Adasta]

The problem with Fi is that its process is inherently subjective. This subjectivity is augmented by the inclination towards the primacy of emotional intensity, represented so well by INFPs.

I can appreciate another's Fi-ness because I relate to it, albeit indirectly. Since feelings are the filter through which Fi analyses data, they become sacrosanct; a hostile criticism of feeling is considered a transgression against the feelings' originator.

The problem is then one of reduction: other types can reduce feelings to the point of the ridiculous because they do not comprehend their meanings. I can do that with Te as well, if I feel like it. But there's no point. Te could explain the rigours of space to me, but would less adept at conveying the beauty of a star.
I
It's all well and good to laugh at Fi, as long as you're willing to write off significant chunks of literature, music and art, as whimsical and indulgent.

 

[Elfboy]

The problem with Fi is that its process is inherently subjective. This subjectivity is augmented by the inclination towards the primacy of emotional intensity, represented so well by INFPs.

I can appreciate another's Fi-ness because I relate to it, albeit indirectly. Since feelings are the filter through which Fi analyses data, they become sacrosanct; a hostile criticism of feeling is considered a transgression against the feelings' originator.

The problem is then one of reduction: other types can reduce feelings to the point of the ridiculous because they do not comprehend their meanings. I can do that with Te as well, if I feel like it. But there's no point. Te could explain the rigours of space to me, but would less adept at conveying the beauty of a star.
I
It's all well and good to laugh at Fi, as long as you're willing to write off significant chunks of literature, music and art, as whimsical and indulgent.

I know how you feel on this one. My INTJ can analyze the hell out of anything and figure out the most complicated problems/systems imaginable, but at the end of the day, he has trouble appreciating a beautiful sunset or beautiful scenery. I just don't get TJs sometimes. willing to bake all the cakes in the world, but not willing to eat them.