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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    See here's the problem; it was not self-absorption at all. You're attempting to undermine the perfectly reasonable arguments of the Fi users with another unjustified swipe at us. [...]
    I hate beating up on fellow INFPs; it makes me sound like a self-hating Fi-Dom or something. Furthermore, others (Mac and Fidelia) have picked up some of my points and are running with them. I ought to just be grateful and shut up.

    Still, I have to object to the simplistic view that INFPs are innocent babes in the wood, and that other personality types are wolves attacking us and tearing into us every time we let out a peep. Frankly, that kind of view serves us poorly. It's closer to the truth to say that we INFPs have real power of our own (a good thing, in most contexts), but that sometimes we misuse it--accidentally or deliberately.

    Here's my point of view:

    When INFPs claim that they've been attacked and victimized at the end of a thread, very often they forget that they themselves were pushing the panic button--early, hard, and often--at the beginning of the thread.

    Here's the typical pattern: With all their emotionality and lack of boundaries, INFPs raise a fuss about some minor point early on. It creates a lot of din and cacophony for the more "orderly" types. And then, just about the time the INFPs are getting calmed down, the more "orderly" types get their fill of the noise and the din and reach over and slap the INFPs upside the head. The INFPs look about quizzically with tears in their eyes and start complaining of unprovoked attacks.

    I think this happens for two reasons. 1) We INFPs are quick to emote but also quick to calm down again once we've gotten our emoting out of our system; and 2) We INFPs don't hold much stock in our own emoting and can't imagine that all the fuss we raised early in the thread could result in (or even be connected to) the fuss we get back from the non-INFPs in the latter part of the thread.

    But in fact our emoting and fussing and complaining is like fingernails on a chalkboard to many other types. And as much as NTs (for example) say that they aren't affected by emotions, they still get plenty irritated if they have to listen to big doses of it.

    To put it simply: our emotionality and lack of boundaries have the ability to superheat a thread. And after we've trashed and tangled up a thread with our complaining and emoting, frankly it sounds fake when we sit around and play the victim afterwards.

    This here thread seems to be about writing an epitaph for the "Quick Reference Guide" threads, so let's go back to those. I don't want to pick out individual posts or posters as an example, so I'll just try to keep everything general. But I followed and posted in the "Quick Reference Guide" threads almost from their first appearance. (My first post was in the Fi thread less than 24 hours after its inception.) So here's just one example of what I saw:

    Fi-Dom posters were already over posting in the Fe thread complaining about the Fi guide within the first two posts following the OP over there. And in fact the Fe thread almost never even had a chance to discuss the Fe guide; Fi-Doms were complaining in both the Fe and Fi threads about the Fi guide. Any boundaries between the two threads quickly broke down; Fe-users and Fi-users were all over each other's threads; by 48 hours after the OP, Fi-Dom posters were clashing in the Fe thread with madmins about the issue of the Fi guide.

    Frankly, that was wrong on at least 3 different levels. Fe-Doms have stricter boundaries than us, react to emotionality differently than us, and tend to respect authority more than us. To be tying up their thread and clashing with the madmins over there was going to be a problem.

    I myself had already posted some short posts in the Fi thread within the first 24 hours; by the third day one of the INFPs posted a query back on the Fi thread and I took the opportunity to post a couple of long, provocative posts in response. Basically I was just hoping to anchor the dispute back in the Fi thread and maybe try to give the Fe-Doms a little peace. But the Fi thread flamed out and was graveyarded soon after; for all I know, some provocative comments I made about Fe-Doms in my own post might have contributed to the thread's demise.

    But in any case I certainly wasn't surprised when the Fi thread degenerated into mutual recriminations and got trashed. Right from the start it had been superheated with emotionality and tangled together in boundaryless fashion with the Fe thread; the madmins had issued warnings and were expressing their disgust; it was just a matter of time till that thread came to a bad end.

    I might have some quibbles with some individual non-INFP posts or posters and with the specific way the thread was graveyarded, but ultimately I wasn't one bit surprised at what finally happened to the thread; that thread was begging for a mercy killing. And it may be that the INFP posters were starting to calm down and keep to their own turf by the end, but that didn't mean they were innocent victims throughout the entire process: That tangled, mutated Frankenstein monster of twisted-up message threads was primarily an INFP creation through at least the 50 percent or even the 75 percent mark. As I read it, this means that INFPs have to take some responsibility for what happened in the remainder of the threads.

    We INFPs are not necessarily the blameless victims that we like to portray. At least in my own case, I have always been aware of my own ability to superheat the environment around me, even while I tried to duck responsibility for the backlash that resulted from the superheating. Nor do I think it's sufficient to create a defense that "I was expressing my Fi, and you have to show respect for whatever I say."

    And that's just one facet or aspect out of a number of various things that went wrong with that thread that can be laid at the doorstep (IMO) of the INFP contingent.

    I want to emphasize that blaming INFPs for the thread isn't a big deal for me personally one way or the other. I didn't raise any recriminations in the thread at the time, and I'm comfortable with what happened overall. Emotionality and lack of boundaries is what we do, and I understand where it comes from. I only bring up the issue now to respond to accusations that non-INFP posters have been "mocking, hurtful, and cruel" or that we INFPs are somehow blameless victims of this whole process. I don't see it that way. Emotionality and lack of boundaries can have some negative consequences for those around us, and I think we INFPs have to recognize it and face up to it.

    To sum up: The good news is that we're not powerless victims. We have real power to influence the people around us; quite a bit of power in fact. The bad new is that we have to get a handle on that power, or we'll waste it on petty complaints and emotionality, superheat the environment around us, and spend our lives entangled in controversy and conflict.
    Last edited by RDF; 11-24-2010 at 01:06 AM. Reason: Added final summing-up paragraph

  2. #82
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Lots of great stuff. I need more time to assimilate and reflect on some earlier stuff, but I hope to tomorrow. Again in the interim:

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Report the posts and ignore them. Rule violations should be taken care of by the mods.
    I have reported posts, although it takes quite a bit of provocation for me to do so and I don't like to. However, nothing has ever appeared to change on the forum as a result.

    Actually, now as I think about it, no one has ever even gotten back to me to say my comments have even been read and that someone is investigating how I feel I am being treated. What typically happens in these situations?

    So at the moment, to me it feels like my concerns are dismissed without consideration, because there's no feedback to tell me I've been heard and am actually being taken seriously.

    And let's put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. When the Fi users are having a discussion of interest to us, and we're all acting like grown-ups and enjoying ourselves; if our posts are so annoying to Fe users, why don't said Fe users just ignore those posts and move on? The advice works both ways. It reads to me that you are requiring Fi users to bend and accept; if that's so, where is the reciprocation? Where's the win-win?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Fe users tend to check that they are not mistaken in their impressions by asking people whose judgement they trust before they express their point of view.
    The problem here is Fe users only check with certain people, ones they "trust". Of course, those people are thus most likely to contribute to confirmation bias.

    So, what to do next? I could have done all this privately, and then presented a finalized tally to show that over 65% of voting Fi users feel that the forum does not protect their right to freedom of speech without harassment. Would action be taken then? Would change take place? How effective is this forum, really, when so many people feel this way?

    See, it doesn't bother me to make this kind of stuff public. I know the Fe users find all this rather drama-inducing, but I don't have a group that I make a posse with. So, I take it out to to the group as a whole, and let the chips fall where they may.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #83
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    Thanks for the insight in Fe fidelia and Tallulah. I do find it weird if Ti users do this. Say an INTP does this, and especially as in the scenario I wrote about. One should think they would use Ti, and not be all that different to the Fi. Not sure what the difference will though. As Fe is inferior in INTP and shadow in INFP.

  4. #84
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quick post to FineLine: I hear what you are saying and see where you are going.

    What you don't know and aren't taking into account are the over 2000 posts I have made that are measured and balanced and even.

    It's taken me a long time to get more direct about how I feel here, and I am at a pivot point as to what I'll do about it.

    Be careful not to generalize what you are seeing in those two threads as typical behaviour on my part.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Quick post to FineLine: I hear what you are saying and see where you are going.

    What you don't know and aren't taking into account are the over 2000 posts I have made that are measured and balanced and even.

    It's taken me a long time to get more direct about how I feel here, and I am at a pivot point as to what I'll do about it.

    Be careful not to generalize what you are seeing in those two threads as typical behaviour on my part.
    I'm just reporting what I saw in those threads. Where you come from and where you're going is of no concern to me. I really couldn't care less.

    I'm looking at the threads and showing how they match a typical pattern for INFP posting. But don't ask me to crawl into the heads of all the various participants and concern myself about their motivations or their past or their future or why they posted exactly what they did. That's not my job.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    I see, its the energies that are misaligned. Projection from distant facilitation of distortion based upon the thinking and feeling mind set that is a limiter in belief. And indeed validate the loops by confirming the insecurity. The objection tends to be entirely without base maturity in expressing that words, shapes, sounds, colors are along a frequency line. And this is attributed to unhealthy discontinuity. And whats more threatening than opening the heart right up, the mind reacts violently. And some thinking personalities are living in their reactivity and create the portal to disruption for a reason.

    Its less about citing source material or not than it is about the projection. It could be a hair that fell and it could be the millionth one and thats the one that would create a red flag, like a wand of distortion that creates a refraction of a mind set that reverberates like an echo in time to the point of creation of the events that transpire along the curve of discontinuity. That this validating invalidity that is open yet closed, is seen as self absorption, arrogance and such to others when it is confronting the core aspects of self more than the outer aspects of self. In which case the solidification of proofs are made as an adjunct to the cordial surreality that is in effect here a distracting tangent from the true intent of the deviation. And that is to stop an internal wound that is externalised.

    And some feeling personalities are living in their reactivity too and create the portal to disruption as well. After all there is a reflection of transparencies that are inherently made and those parallel experiences that are set in motion in the form of developmental association of who we are as an identity beacon. And that is entirely rearranged by the fractal space that is without whole space to the synergy that it takes to connect to the whole experience of awareness instead of the part time awareness of experience. Like a magnification of a false bottom. This reality is that false bottom, that is physicality and none transcending past the ego mind as a strained relationship that is not of our choosing creates the reactivity of distorted health artifacts that are like balls curving through antimatter. I choose to be aware of how 16 personality types function and I choose to express Fi in a limited way. And forgo scrutiny as a limited masking of awareness, from a polarity in which instances are non negotiable anyway. And when I myself would lack the foundational awareness in expanding the energy that isn't always necessary. Boxes could have a million sides and the limiter is the parameters of the box, that they are still in a box, aren't we just.

    I very rarely speak Fi openly to the extent I can, a few might know from the pms I write, briefly of my thought patterning, its like a dip in the ocean. Part of that used to be a story and pattern attached to my views that distorted my thinking. And even though its a dip in my Fi to the extent I can translate to here. Patterns and Stories are the foundational discontinuity in the human condition from the very source center of our upbringing to the now. And it takes a good while, life times, to accumulate the wisdom that requires the diligence and patience to restructure the flow of knowing what it feels like to reanimate the passion to become the challenger of continuity. And that says a lot about the kinds of people that disrupt that flow. An intonation of discordance that is every step of the way a story and a pattern manifested along a curve that dips and weaves.

    Ah the human condition and vulnerability. How right you are. I could express myself openly and know that the human condition is such that fear tends to be subconsciously situated instead of fearlessness. And those who seek conflict are afraid of something, and those who are confronted are afraid of something too. And those aspects bounce as a sign that something is unsafe, and indeed it is and the guardedness accrues. Much like my family creating vortex after vortex of discontinuity from basing their assessment on their fine reasoning that is designed to drain energy. And that is the crux of it, energy. Expanding the energy to define something negative takes more energy than to define something positive. And like a well constructed strategy long before the design of intention to limit expression or expand expression, in negative intonations of substitution, positive reinterpretations of intonational creative substance. Intentional reality is as much a conscious as it is a subconscious artifact.

    I blabbed about something I suppose.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keps Mnemnosyne View Post
    This is an assumption, that only FiPe users are adjusting or adjusting more. It could easily be argued back and forth. Any interaction I adjust; Offline I feel the collision of society and individuals. If I had to pick out 'functions' for the bad sides of my culture, I would argue that different sub-cultures have different weaknesses i.e. one sub-culture I deal with frequently is of forced uniqueness which for me exemplifies the negative collusion of Fi and Fe. You have to be considered 'different' or you are considered a worthless sheep. I mention this because I have seen that a lot of Fi-posts have said that they deal with Fe offline all day and are sick of adjusting to it. Which is a fair point, but please realize Fe and other function dominant users have also had to adjust to their culture's standards. You may argue that Fi adjusts more, but that is spinning wheels in sand and unprovable.

    I guess my point being, how are these attacks different from attacks on any other group or user?
    i think the difference that i personally feel is that when a Fe user goes against a Fi user, they tend to direct a whole group at you. you get ostracized, hurt in others' eyes. when a Fi user attacks you... well, that Fi user really doesn't lead anyone else against you. they may say things that are distasteful to a group, but at least it's a one-on-one thing. it seems more fair when you're attacked by a Fi user because it's up to others to decide whether the attack is valid or not. they don't just turn everyone against you, like a Fe user.

    though i think it's a lot about what fidelia and Oro and i have been fleshing out in the controlling ENFP thread - that Fi/Te conversation really revolves around critiquing thoughts, and protects feelings, while Fe/Ti conversation revolves around critiquing feelings, and protects thoughts. to me, being kicked out of a group without my idea being considered because of who i am is not just displeasing, it's deeply hurtful. i feel ashamed, and wrongfully oppressed. i assume that it's not such a big deal from the eyes of a Fe/Ti user, and i guess it'd seem like more of an unkindness to consider my idea and then shoot it down - though that's not true in my eyes. i'd feel more validated for the group taking the time to consider my idea, especially if they critiqued it. (even better if they like it, but at least critiquing indicates that they care enough about me to take the time to consider me an equal, with potentially valuable ideas to contribute.)

    question - how do Fe users perceive closing someone out of a group?

    as for the mods - most of them i think are awesome. there's just one mod i feel very uncomfortable around because i got Fe'd out of a conversation by them before, very early in my time here. i felt like that person was using their authority to squelch out a response they personally didn't like. i continue to see them as volatile and do not trust their judgment, even though i do accept it as a user of this site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I'd say Fi can/often does come off as self-absorbed and/or unnecessarily disruptive to Fe users. I think I have a better understanding now of where Fi is coming from, and am trying to understand and appreciate it on its own, and not through an Fe lens. But old habits die hard. :-P
    hehe, well, back atcha. Fe can still come off as cliquey and continually missing the point.

  8. #88
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    FineLine I appreciate your attempts to create balance in the debate. I certainly don't believe we are entirely blameless and if you look back in the thread I made several posts regarding this. But please don't mistake my, at times, passionate language as being indicative of my perspectives being black and white or lacking balance. Just because I have a strong view doesn't mean I haven't considered the issues you and others have raised. Don't belittle my views or those of the other XNFPs here as being simplistic and ignorant just because you disagree with them.

    And regarding your last post: PeaceBaby's statement wasn't aggressive in any way and there was no need for such snarky abrasiveness. Please don't add unnecessary fuel to the fire.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine
    I think this happens for two reasons. 1) We INFPs are quick to emote but also quick to calm down again once we've gotten our emoting out of our system; and 2) We INFPs don't hold much stock in our own emoting and can't imagine that all the fuss we raised early in the thread could result in (or even be connected to) the fuss we get back from the non-INFPs in the latter part of the thread.
    ooh, how did i miss this?

    i feel exactly the same way! and have run into this problem with quite a few people... all of my family members, in fact, them all being Fe/Ti. i used to think it was just me - comforting to understand that there's something behind it.

    my ENFJ close friend and i have struggled over this in the past. one time we got in an argument, and 10 minutes later i was ready to joke around with her again. my point had been made; my pent-up frustration had been released. i felt no lingering negativity towards her. we'd both said our peace. the thing was... she was still pissed off. but she didn't understand how i could be okay again so soon, and she wanted time to cool off. which left me wondering - why did my little blow up get under her skin so much? the things i said weren't specifically tailored to her as much as they were an attempt to vocalize what i was feeling inside, and yet she took them very personally. i see why it could be taken that way, but it wasn't meant that way.

    so i think part of the key to dealing with Fi negativity is to understanding that it's really not about you. it's either about me, or it's about an idea, which i see as something very separate from you. i assume it works in the same way for Fi users needing to understand that Fe/Ti attacks on our feelings aren't meant to attack who we are.

  10. #90
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I have to back Mac and fidelia up on that. I'd say Fi can/often does come off as self-absorbed and/or unnecessarily disruptive to Fe users. I think I have a better understanding now of where Fi is coming from, and am trying to understand and appreciate it on its own, and not through an Fe lens. But old habits die hard. :-P

    I think most people tend to think others' motives/processes are similar to their own. Fe users are so used to taking the temperature of the room, so when we encounter someone who is obviously being led from within, it can seem like the Fi didn't consider anyone's feelings but their own. I know that's not true, but it can sometimes look that way.
    I think this is a big factor. People are measuring each other's actions by different yard sticks, rather than taking them on their own terms, which is essential to create social harmony.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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