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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #71
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    If I may...

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    As a corollary to my point above: In my previous post I put the words "mocking, hurtful, and cruel" in quotes as much for irony as anything else. Frankly I didn't see much in the earlier thread that was genuinely mocking, hurtful and cruel. What I saw was some personalization of the issue by INFPs, some push-back by non-INFPs, then a lot of stressed-out inferior Te from INFPs along the line of "I am Fi! Hear me roar! You have no right to disrespect me!", and finally a whole lot of irritation from non-INFPs.
    I'd say that is mostly accurate, from my non-Fi viewpoint. There were a few non-Fi people that crossed the line, but most of it was simply annoyance at what they saw as Fi-users' self-absorbtion.

    In short, the Fi-users conflated a few incidents to a widespread attack, and non-Fi-users (let's see if I can add another hyphen) threw out the baby with the bathwater by combining legitimate complaints with some overly dramatic whinging and dismissing it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Oh dear, this is starting to sound familiar. You guys are in serious danger of wandering into the 'blame the victim' territory, which is something I abhor.

    Personal attacks are never appropriate. They may be a regular feature in life that we must learn to endure (which I believe, we INFPs have been doing remarkably well here) but they are never warranted, and reacting with disgust and annoyance to them is perfectly natural.

    Expecting me to alter my behaviour when I am attacked is ridiculous. I am not the one with the problem.
    I agree, but I'd be hesitant to label oneself a "victim" to claim moral high ground. Real victimization is rare on the internet (just log out, no one is forcing you to participate). If you view every major clash or disagreement in this light, eventually no one will take you seriously and just see you as a drama queen.

    Report the posts and ignore them. Rule violations should be taken care of by the mods.

  2. #72
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    If I may...

    I'd say that is mostly accurate, from my non-Fi viewpoint. There were a few non-Fi people that crossed the line, but most of it was simply annoyance at what they saw as Fi-users' self-absorbtion.

    In short, the Fi-users conflated a few incidents to a widespread attack, and non-Fi-users (let's see if I can add another hyphen) threw out the baby with the bathwater by combining legitimate complaints with some overly dramatic whinging and dismissing it all.
    See here's the problem; it was not self-absorption at all. You're attempting to undermine the perfectly reasonable arguments of the Fi users with another unjustified swipe at us. What I saw was Fi-users expressing their difference in opinion and engaging in polite debate, and a bunch of (predominantly) NTs getting pissy with them because they weren't playing according to their unspoken rules (ironic isn't it, that it was the Thinkers and not the Feelers, using irrational, emotional-driven arguments). Any attempt by the Fi-ers to explain themselves only lead to further, uncalled for, ad hominem type-based attacks on them. It was close to total derailment of the thread by lashing out with, what clearly seems to be, a personal prejudice against a type among many here.

    While, in all fairness, that thread is probably not the worst in TC history in terms of attacks on a function or type, it holds significance because it exists amongst a clear trend of them against Fi. This thread is in reaction to the constant need for Fi-users, to not merely explain, but defend ourselves; and frankly its becoming exhausting doing so. I don't give a shit if people disagree with me - I simply want to have discussion without being called names or having everything I say twisted into, what is proclaimed to be, 'whiny, hysterical nonsense' based on a projection of someone's prejudices.

    I agree, but I'd be hesitant to label oneself a "victim" to claim moral high ground. Real victimization is rare on the internet (just log out, no one is forcing you to participate). If you view every major clash or disagreement in this light, eventually no one will take you seriously and just see you as a drama queen.

    Report the posts and ignore them. Rule violations should be taken care of by the mods.
    Actually I was reluctant about using this term knowing it may be read this way. I think we are all over the actual situation itself and I don't mean to make this to be more than it is. I don't think anyone is claiming this is persecution on a grand scale. We simply struggle to understand why as a group we are so targeted for childish, obnoxious remarks and insults, then only to be accused of 'bringing it upon ourselves'.

    This may be the internet, but there are real people involved. I'm sure we are a bunch of fairly reasonable adults; I don't see that basic respect and decency as being a big ask. People can self-censor and monitor their own behaviour IRL without the need of mods; what's so difficult about doing so here. And I don't see that I should be expected to leave because others are enjoying a free-for-all at my expense too much to stop.
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    See here's the problem; it was not self-absorption at all. You're attempting to undermine the perfectly reasonable arguments of the Fi users with another unjustified swipe at us. What I saw was Fi-users expressing their difference in opinion and engaging in polite debate, and a bunch of (predominantly) NTs getting pissy with them because they weren't playing according to their unspoken rules (ironic isn't it, that it was the Thinkers and not the Feelers, using irrational, emotional-driven arguments). Any attempt by the Fi-ers to explain themselves only lead to further, uncalled for, ad hominem type-based attacks on them. It was close to total derailment of the thread by lashing out with, what clearly seems to be, a personal prejudice against a type among many here.

    While, in all fairness, that thread is probably not the worst in TC history in terms of attacks on a function or type, it holds significance because it exists amongst a clear trend of them against Fi-users. This thread is in reaction to the constant need for Fi-users, to not merely explain, but defend ourselves; and frankly its becoming exhausting doing so. I don't give a shit if people disagree with me - I simply want to have discussion without being called names or having everything I say twisted into, what is proclaimed to be, 'hysterical nonsense' based on a projection of someone's prejudices.
    We are going to have to disagree on the interpretation of the events. Just know I'm not the only one that sees them in that way.

    I've found this is a huge blind spot for Fi-users: they believe they are being positive and healthy, where others seem them as negative and disruptive. It's strange, for group that is so good at relating to others one-on-one and analyzing their own emotional states/feelings, they are disadvantaged when addressing larger groups and trying to convey their inner states/beliefs in a way that doesn't grate on others.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I've found this is a huge blind spot for Fi-users: they believe they are being positive and healthy, where others seem them as negative and disruptive. It's strange, for group that is so good at relating to others one-on-one and analyzing their own emotional states/feelings, they are disadvantaged when addressing larger groups and trying to convey their inner states/beliefs in a way that doesn't grate on others.
    How can you know you speak for the group, when you say they are seen as negative and disruptive(feeling the air?)?

    How do you know this from a third eye perspective? That a few people who disagree or just don't get it projects their own feelings onto the group, and as such illusionary come to this conclusion. (I don't like Fi user-must protect the group).

    I'm not sure what Fi is, besides descriptions and peoples experiences, and maybe myself. But your above observation seems fraught with possibility for falseness, even worse, creating untruth by accusing Fi user of creating unrest.

    I dunno. I have seen these situations. People so consumed by subjectivity that they think they speak for the whole group. And if you run a poll you may get ex 7 to 47 votes against the pov one feels affect the group. And still one will insist one speaks for the group.

    I don't get it. This behaviour I've seen from some T identified people using inferior Fe. When all evidence points to the contrary, except from a small sample. While most Ts wont experience this form of illusion, some will, and this puzzles me.

    What if a T isn't capable to accurately measure the emotional state of the group? Is it then wise to do so and assume one speaks for the group? And then like for real creating unrest when the group rebels against you, or becomes manipulated? And the Fi user didn't really have anything to do with this, except triggering you.

    Ok, I see I went around my tale here, as this will still mean it was the Fi user that triggered the unrest. Is this what is meant?

  5. #75
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Judging from the ENFP thread, I think I'm seeing that Fi/Te users are especially strong on the idea that everyone's voice is equally valid, whereas Fe/Ti users look a lot at presentation style and who you are before they place credibility on the words. Fe/Ti users will show a lot more care and regard for the way they approach someone else's ideas, while Fi/Te users will show more care and regard for how they approach someone's feelings and values. Because Fe/Ti users don't see their emotions/values (for lack of better words) as the essence of their identity, they cannot really see why it's such a big deal to question, criticize, scrutinize or debate those things. Similarly, Fi/Te users don't see their thoughts and the extensions of them as the essence of who they are, but rather as something more open to scrutiny, debate and evolution and they can't see why Fe/Ti users take such exception to them openly challenging those things.

    In both cases, it would appear to me that Fe and Te are to the opposite users very blustery looking, smug or self-assured functions. On closer inspection though they are mostly called out when Fi or Ti are threatened and are in fact self-defense, rather than attack.

    In a group setting, Fe is going to be more commonly supported over Fi. It may seem unfair, but Fi's very individuality, privacy, retiscence and outspokenness makes it hard to wield effectively in a large group. In personal settings, Fi is a superstar and can be much more insightful and precise than Fe.

    I'm inclined to agree with FineLine to some extent that you have to look at which setting you are in to determine what is going to be most effective. There is nothing wrong with people using Fi in a large group setting, but they have to be prepared for the possibility or even likelihood that it will be misinterpreted or derided. Because values and emotions are Fi's area of vulnerability, this can make Fi users feel unduly attacked and marginalized, when in fact Fe users see it as a way to try to make things work for the most people possible. More understanding of each other's perspective certainly is useful for a more accurate and kind response.

    The other thing the ENFP thread has brought out is that when there is conflict, Fi users tend to want to come closer to the person, while Fe users want to disengage. When the Fe users are not willing to do this, Fi brings in Te defensively. When Fi users are not willing to give space, then Ti brings in Fe defensively. Both provoke a kind of ever-worsening feedback loop.

    Fe users will be much more likely to respect the Fi users' feelings if they allow space and don't try to use force through Te. When we disengage for a bit, we may even be able to look for the parts that we do agree with, or try to find a way of compromising or meeting in the middle. Without that, we will become increasingly blunt.

    Because our feelings/values are not our main area of vulnerability, a Fi user striking back at our intentions/motivations/feelings is more likely to annoy than hurt us. Criticize our thoughts or something that matters greatly to us and that is where we are more likely to react. Unfortunately, this often leaves Fi users in a position of feeling attacked where it hurts most, without a way to respond that will impact the other person as deeply and make them rethink their way of engaging.

  6. #76
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Sleepy, one thing I've noticed is that Fi users are very reluctant to speak for anyone except themselves. Even when I've solicited individual's opinions about relating better to Fi users, they sprinkle it with tons of "This is only my perspective"s. Fe users tend to check that they are not mistaken in their impressions by asking people whose judgement they trust before they express their point of view. This is not just a bid to create social pressure and force Fi users to do as they wish. Instead it is like getting a bunch of people to mirror back an image of them. If most of the images are the same, that's how they'll conclude they (or whatever is being mirrored) do in fact look.

    I actually think MacGuffin is fairly accurate in speaking for a lot of Fe users. While those inclined to do so can even recognize that the intent is not to create unrest or to seem negative, the way it is expressed does tend to rub the wrong way. I think this has a lot to do with the Fi belief that it is important to speak the message out (particularly if it is a value) and that everyone should have a voice to say their say. What happens afterwards with it is out of their control, but it has to be said. Fe users tend to look more at the impact they feel something has rather than at the thing itself. They also seem to be flexier on values/emotions etc depending on the amount of discussion they have with a variety of other people (like Te is about thoughts/facts - they want the best, most practical response). Therefore, they don't see any point in expressing something UNLESS your intent is to try to effect change or to evoke an emotional response in someone. This is why Fi efforts at speaking out are seen as disruptive or negative. It is perceived as you trying to garner sympathy, having a pity party with each other, or trying to change people's minds by saying how you feel about it (which to a Fe user is implying that you think your opinion is worth a much bigger slice of the pie of influence than anyone else's).

    Don't know if I have stated it right, but you just won't find Fe users feeling that another Fe user has been presumtuous in speaking out for them becauase they likely have checked to see others agree and because they are looking for the most workable, practical outcome (much less individuality or precision required).

  7. #77
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Standard Disclaimer : This is only my perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think this has a lot to do with the Fi belief that it is important to speak the message out (particularly if it is a value) and that everyone should have a voice to say their say. What happens afterwards with it is out of their control, but it has to be said.
    I remember reading on this forum someone (I think it was Sim, but not sure) saying something like "I don't mind having a discussion with someone who is wrong because it is the audience that I'm speaking to." To me, it is kind of like the reverse. I don't mind making statements that could be wrong and being corrected, because as long as someone learns something from it, it IS of value.

    Think of it like pieces of a huge, complicated jigsaw puzzle. Everyone has a different puzzle. My opinions are pieces of my puzzle. Chances are, I won't have evidence or statistics to back them up. Not all the pieces will fit in other people's puzzles, maybe even none. But once in a while, someone will pick up a piece and go "Eureka!", and you receive a rep and it makes all the other dozens of times people calling you an idiot worthwhile

    Edit : Oh, and to answer the OP, posting about Fi here can sometimes feel like jumping into waters where you know there are sharks lurking. There are some scary smart people in this forum
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  8. #78
    Senior Member Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    Sorry to add another non-Fi voice to this thread, but I meant to before the influx of the Swarm and am just a slow replier.

    First to FineLine's point about shame:
    I think FineLine was talking about the sense of self-shame. As an example:

    Let's say a college student enjoys math as a subject. This kid however didn't study before a test and fails the test. She tells herself "Well I didn't enjoy math anyway." A concerned friend sees her grade and tells her "You could have done so much better." The kid feels ashamed and works to improve their grade later.

    This is different than her studying days ahead of time, obtaining a decent but not awesome grade, and then an adversarial classmate telling her she's stupid for not obtaining perfection.

    Both are senses of shame, but they are different. FineLine if I misconstrued your point, I apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    And why should the adjustment in communication ALWAYS be on the FiPe user's end anyway? Sure, some adjustment in communication is always needed when dealing with other types, but it seems there is far less or NO adjustment on the other end towards us. It is not fair to ask one type to do all the adjusting. And frankly, if they're going to be derisive in tone, then they better be able to take it themselves.
    This is an assumption, that only FiPe users are adjusting or adjusting more. It could easily be argued back and forth. Any interaction I adjust; Offline I feel the collision of society and individuals. If I had to pick out 'functions' for the bad sides of my culture, I would argue that different sub-cultures have different weaknesses i.e. one sub-culture I deal with frequently is of forced uniqueness which for me exemplifies the negative collusion of Fi and Fe. You have to be considered 'different' or you are considered a worthless sheep. I mention this because I have seen that a lot of Fi-posts have said that they deal with Fe offline all day and are sick of adjusting to it. Which is a fair point, but please realize Fe and other function dominant users have also had to adjust to their culture's standards. You may argue that Fi adjusts more, but that is spinning wheels in sand and unprovable.

    I guess my point being, how are these attacks different from attacks on any other group or user?
    During my time here, I have been insulted and condescended to. I have seen TJs insult FPs, FJs insult SJs (so on and so forth), condescension from those I respect and from those who have yet to earn it. I have looked back at some of my own posts dripping with condescension not meant and yet done.

    My only sense of a true difference that I feel is that there are more moderators who willingly enter, sometimes forcefully, but always eloquently portray Fe, in these discussions than there are moderators willing to enter the arguments for Fi. But the sample size is a) small and b) perhaps not significant to the argument.
    Last edited by Keps Mnemnosyne; 11-23-2010 at 11:32 PM. Reason: As a sidenote: I have also seen multitudes of compliments and well-wishers as well.
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  9. #79
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I have to back Mac and fidelia up on that. I'd say Fi can/often does come off as self-absorbed and/or unnecessarily disruptive to Fe users. I think I have a better understanding now of where Fi is coming from, and am trying to understand and appreciate it on its own, and not through an Fe lens. But old habits die hard. :-P

    I think most people tend to think others' motives/processes are similar to their own. Fe users are so used to taking the temperature of the room, so when we encounter someone who is obviously being led from within, it can seem like the Fi didn't consider anyone's feelings but their own. I know that's not true, but it can sometimes look that way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keps Mnemnosyne View Post
    Sorry to add another non-Fi voice to this thread, but I meant to before the influx of the Swarm and am just a slow replier.

    First to FineLine's point about shame:
    I think FineLine was talking about the sense of self-shame. As an example:

    Let's say a college student enjoys math as a subject. This kid however didn't study before a test and fails the test. She tells herself "Well I didn't enjoy math anyway." A concerned friend sees her grade and tells her "You could have done so much better." The kid feels ashamed and works to improve their grade later.

    This is different than her studying days ahead of time, obtaining a decent but not awesome grade, and then an adversarial classmate telling her she's stupid for not obtaining perfection.

    Both are senses of shame, but they are different. FineLine if I misconstrued your point, I apologize.
    You got it right. As you described, I was talking about getting by on what you're good at (your Dom function), and then one day failing badly and realizing that you need more tools if you want to handle more complex roles.

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