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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    [...] There are people on this forum who say things to be deliberately mocking, hurtful and cruel to a degree that they would likely never dare to in "real life". These types of interactions read like "road rage" to me, yet they appear openly tolerated and are an accepted forum practice.

    A recent example is the Fi thread that made it to the Graveyard, now split and the remnants inappropriately titled "Fi Gone Bad" ... in a thread about Fi, Fi users weren't "allowed" to discuss, debate, contradict, refine or otherwise engage the material without having to endure harassing, provocative comments throughout the thread.

    Personally, when we talk about Fi on the forum, I want to talk about Fi in an Fi way. I don't want to talk about it through the lens of Fe. Every day I operate in society through that lens; I honor it and respect it, but here on the forum, I dare to hope my lens will be respected, contemplated, and even intriguing for others to hear about it.

    It's naive of me to hope for that. But I do. Over and over again.
    If we really want a thread talking about Fi in an Fi way, it's easy enough to create a thread and ask that only Fi-doms (INFPs and ISFPs) contribute. Or whatever specific group we want to hear from.

    But to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't even read such a thread. I saw lots of those threads over at INFP-gc when that message board was still alive, and those threads were devastatingly bad. They were one-sided and simplistic. Frankly, it's the things that are "mocking, hurtful, and cruel" that add depth and keep us honest.

    Look, here's how I see these things:

    If you really want an in-depth discussion of Fi, I think it's imperative to include all types. Fifty percent of all types are going to have at least some direct, personal experience of Fi, and that experience is going to vary widely depending on whether they're experiencing their own Fi as Dom, Aux, Tert, or Inferior. (I think the Inferior experience can be especially invaluable, since inferior functions almost have to be consciously re-fashioned in order to bring them under control; I'm disappointed that the other thread didn't have more ENTJ/ESTJ input.) The other fifty percent of all types are probably going to have some experience of Fi from the outside; i.e., they'll have family or friends or co-workers who are Fi-Dom or Fi-Aux. To some extent, these latter fifty percent are going to have the best input on what constitutes Fi on a general or universal level.

    To the extent that Fi has some universal traits or features, the latter fifty percent (the non-Fi types) are going to be best positioned to identify those things. We Fi-Doms are not opaque, after all. We actually wear much more of our hearts on our sleeves than we like to admit. I've mentioned that my wife and I are both INFPs; I also worked in an INFP-heavy field (translation). As such, I see INFPs from the outside and I agree with the latter 50 percent when they say that we're much more identifiable, homogeneous, and predictable than we like to admit.

    Yeah, there's going to be a lot of shouting in a thread open to all types. Some possessors of Fi are going to take a very personal approach and say, "I experience my Fi as such-and-such, so the description of Fi should be such-and-such too." Other personality types are going to get frustrated at that kind of personalization of an objective thing--a cognitive function--and they're going to raise a fuss about it. And they're right to do so. As I said, their job is to keep us honest.

    My solution: I've found that the non-Fi types are generally willing to back off and give us some room to discuss things when asked politely. But in return, we have to keep the discussion "honest." IOW, I can't individually personalize the function and try to make the thread specifically about how I manifest my own Fi personally. The thread shouldn't be about me. If I try to make it about me, the non-Fi types are going to object. And naturally, my feelings are going to get hurt, since I've made the thread about ME.

    To make a comparison:

    It's like having a thread to define what constitutes "a good and complete definition of the female face." Other threads will be devoted to what constitutes "a good and complete definition of the male face" (in place of Fe), "...the female body" (Ni), "...the male body" (Ne), "...the female reproductive system" (Ti), and so on. You get the picture.

    So in the thread what constitutes the female face, let's say we have invited women, men, medical doctors, artists, beauticians, plastic surgeons, movie actresses and actors, transgender people, etc. Some are going to speak from an insider's (woman's) point of view, and some are going to speak from an outsider's (man's) point of view. Issues of beauty and ugliness are going to come up; issues of political correctness and gender politics are going to come up. There will be questions of what constitutes "femininity"--is it a synonym for female appearance? And so on. But the discussion can probably handle all of that.

    So what's going to kill the discussion? It's when one or maybe several individuals try to turn the debate into a discussion of their own face and how it specifically embodies femininity. Sure, sometimes an individual example is illuminating, especially one that breaks all the rules (as in "the exception that proves the rule"). Still, the discussion has to return back to universal rules pretty quickly, or people are going to start objecting. And frankly, you're setting yourself up for some cattiness if you try to insist that you yourself exemplify the ideal of feminine looks. Also, some of the participants have seen it all, and they're going to get a little irritated if the discussion hangs up too long on features that may seem unique and individual to one person but really aren't all that uncommon to people who have seen a lot of cases.

    Okay, getting back to Fi: What happens when someone personalizes the discussion, tries to make the thread about themselves and their relationship with their Fi, and they are dismissed by the other participants? What happens when, for example, I speak up and the other participants say things to me that that are "mocking, hurtful, and cruel"? I feel ashamed, and I learn a lesson.

    Frankly, I think shame is a wonderful thing. As I grow older, I come to have more and more respect for it, both in receiving it and doling it out. When I feel ashamed, it's a good reality check. It almost always means that I'm relying too hard on one cognitive function (in my case Fi, usually) and that it's time to engage another cognitive function. I've gotten too wrapped up in my own needs, and it's time to look around me and recognize the needs of the other people sharing the room or the thread.

    In the case of those who personalize the subject matter to the point of making the thread "about them"--and then end up feeling ashamed when the point they are making is dismissed or rejected--the lesson is simple enough: You need to put your point in other language that the other participants will respect. Use a little Te and research the subject. Find some indication that the phenomenon exists outside the single example of you alone; back up your assertions with a citation from experts, or point out where the phenomenon is visibly manifested on the message board itself.

    Or use your Te to compartmentalize: Learn to discuss Fi only in threads where NFs can post, i.e., where you can create your perfect audience, and stay out of threads for the entire population of 16 types.

    In other words, don't let your Fi get injured; bring in another function (usually Te for Fi-Doms, though sometimes Fe is useful too) for support and reinforcement. Be realistic about what the situation demands if you really want to win your point. Remember the cardinal rule for performers: Know your audience.

    To sum up: If you really do want an open, freewheeling discussion about Fi with some real depth, then you need to invite in other types. Fifty percent of all types are going to have at least some direct, personal experience of Fi, and the other fifty percent of all types are probably going to have some experience of Fi from the outside. But that's a lot of variety of experience. You aren't going to get a free pass with that crowd.

    In a freewheeling discussion venue like this one, there's no harm in bringing up a personal observation of whatever nature. But by the same token, there's no harm when others dismiss it or even ridicule it. If you really think your point has validity, then be realistic about what the debate situation demands. Don't let your Fi get injured; bring in another function to counterbalance your Fi and put your argument in language the other participants will respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    A recent example is the Fi thread that made it to the Graveyard, now split and the remnants inappropriately titled "Fi Gone Bad" ...
    I think it needs to be retitled, "Fi Gone Wild," and then we can post pictures of Fi-Doms on spring break pulling their shirts up over their heads. Both sexes are invited of course, in the name of political correctness. The "Quick Reference Guides" are all kind of dead in the water; at least with "Fi Gone Wild," we could get some additional mileage out of one of the threads...

    (Hey it's all pop psychology in the end. Gotta have a sense of humor about it. )

  2. #62
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    If we really want a thread talking about Fi in an Fi way, it's easy enough to create a thread and ask that only Fi-doms (INFPs and ISFPs) contribute. Or whatever specific group we want to hear from.

    But to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't even read such a thread. I saw lots of those threads over at INFP-gc when that message board was still alive, and those threads were devastatingly bad. They were one-sided and simplistic. Frankly, it's the things that are "mocking, hurtful, and cruel" that add depth and keep us honest.
    So true. I think its the varying viewpoints that makes this place so interesting. You never properly develop an idea if its premise(s) goes unchallenged; without different avenues of thought explored. To challenge and question is central but I don't know about "mocking, hurtful and cruel" language though. Effective debate doesn't warrant personal attacks and insults - in fact it actually becomes an obstacle in the discussion.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    If we really want a thread talking about Fi in an Fi way, it's easy enough to create a thread and ask that only Fi-doms (INFPs and ISFPs) contribute. Or whatever specific group we want to hear from.

    But to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't even read such a thread. I saw lots of those threads over at INFP-gc when that message board was still alive, and those threads were devastatingly bad. They were one-sided and simplistic. Frankly, it's the things that are "mocking, hurtful, and cruel" that add depth and keep us honest.

    If you really want an in-depth discussion of Fi, I think it's imperative to include all types.

    Yeah, there's going to be a lot of shouting in a thread open to all types. Some possessors of Fi are going to take a very personal approach and say, "I experience my Fi as such-and-such, so the description of Fi should be such-and-such too." Other personality types are going to get frustrated at that kind of personalization of an objective thing--a cognitive function--and they're going to raise a fuss about it. And they're right to do so. As I said, their job is to keep us honest.

    My solution: I've found that the non-Fi types are generally willing to back off and give us some room to discuss things when asked politely. But in return, we have to keep the discussion "honest.

    Use a little Te and research the subject. Find some indication that the phenomenon exists outside the single example of you alone; back up your assertions with a citation from experts, or point out where the phenomenon is visibly manifested on the message board itself.

    To sum up: If you really do want an open, freewheeling discussion about Fi with some real depth, then you need to invite in other types.
    The bolded is funny to me, as I have yet to see that happen. I think discussion was asked for politely in the recent thread, and instead the other posters kept deeming it unnecessary. It was like, "agree or GTFO".

    I didn't get the impression the OP was suggesting a thread where only Fi-doms talk about Fi in a Fi way. I got the impression that she was saying that when there is a thread about Fi involving many types, that Fi-doms should be able to describe their dominant thought process the best way they know how to do it - generally, this means in a "Fi way", as that is our reasoning process (in conjunction with our Pe process). Other types don't "allow" this, leaving the Fi-doms' view of their own dom function ignored & left out of their neat little consensus on how Fi actually works (whether it's accurate or not). They're free to discuss also, but they don't actually discuss Fi; they just discuss the Fi poster's style & not their ideas. They are detracting from the discussion, not adding to it. (I'm using "they" in a very general manner; it's not meant to be all-inclusive).

    Yes, Fi judgments are personal in nature, but the feeling is still a gauge that something is off or accurate, and generally the Pe function is what is used to actually connect this feeling to something external & unearth ideas from outside yourself; it becomes much more global & conceptual then (well, Ne+Fi in particular). This is an exploration of ideas as much or more than feelings, and I think it is LESS personal than any other type of discussion you might ask a Fi-type to engage in. It's as much in Pe terms as Fi terms.

    However, I think this is threatening to other types (especially inferior/tert Fe users, ie. NTPs, and maybe even inferior Fi users; in fairness, actual Fe-dom & aux types are usually far less dismissive) because it IS dealing with something semi-objective now - it's using an extroverted lens. Fe (or really, other types in general) has made this consensus that Pe is now upsetting, wanting to poke & challenge it and see if it really holds up under closer scrutiny. In this case FiPe is checking this "consensus" for truth & consistency. It's especially threatening when Fi types begin to form a consensus among themselves (which DOES happen more than it does not).

    And why should the adjustment in communication ALWAYS be on the FiPe user's end anyway? Sure, some adjustment in communication is always needed when dealing with other types, but it seems there is far less or NO adjustment on the other end towards us. It is not fair to ask one type to do all the adjusting. And frankly, if they're going to be derisive in tone, then they better be able to take it themselves.

    So it seems to me, the other types are the ones being overly sensitive & unwilling to reassess their own viewpoint, not open to having their ideas/thoughts challenged & questioned. It would be GREAT if they actually joined in a discussion & debated ideas; but they often don't. They just make scornful comments instead of actually addressing points made by the Fi people and creating a valid argument. It's devaluing the poster instead of attacking their argument. These are the ones who don't want a real discussion; the pattern is to mock or accuse, likely to get a reaction, then to invalidate the poster(s) based on the reaction, and then to comment on how ridiculous the thread is so as to perpetuate the propaganda that Fi types are hysterical, irrational people. Even though, looking back on these threads, the whiniest, most unreasonable posters are often not even F types.

    In many, many of these discussions, you know what types are the ones quoting Jung & other legit typology sources? The NFPs. However, these posts aren't regarded any better than a more "personal" post from a different Fi user. The detractors tend to ignore these thoughtful posts, and only comment on posts that have left themselves more open to a derail on how ridiculous Fi-doms/aux are.

    Really, I get why Fi-doms just say "fuck it" when it comes to direct, verbal communication and go create art and then laugh at how everyone else laps up the very same ideas in a different form. We should probably all save our breath & write a novel or paint a canvas.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #64
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    Skipping forward from a few posts, but will return to those. Have some thoughts to share on this first.


    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    If we really want a thread talking about Fi in an Fi way, it's easy enough to create a thread and ask that only Fi-doms (INFPs and ISFPs) contribute. Or whatever specific group we want to hear from.
    True that. But FineLine, I feel like you have missed the point I am trying to make in this thread, and misunderstand my apprehension.

    You & I, we don't know each other well. I make no claim, nor have I ever, to be some exemplar or poster child for INFP's or Fi doms. As an executive summary to the rest of my response, the only way I can compare my experience of Fi to other Fi doms or aux's is to bring it to the light, make it visible, and hear what others say. I take that all back inside, process it, refine it, bring more of me out to the light, receive feedback, process that, rinse & repeat. That process of processing ... I need that, and I like to be able to do it in an environment free from being minimized as a person.

    Of course, that's a fantastical perfect world, and this forum is not perfect either - but here on the forum, in my mind (since the forum is about typology) it's supposed to be a place where we are permitted to explore those questions without continual concern about censure.


    Frankly, it's the things that are "mocking, hurtful, and cruel" that add depth and keep us honest.
    No, it's not. Those are, quite frankly, primarily elements of control designed to prey off of fear. I am certainly not saying I don't receive or deserve my share of "humble pie" from time to time. Being on the receiving end of harassment however is not something that keeps me "honest". The design of such comments is to shut people up, to silence, to ensure compliance and to oppress.

    If anything, it makes me honest insofar as I will speak up to speak up against it.


    If you really want an in-depth discussion of Fi, I think it's imperative to include all types. {+ the rest of this para.}
    Agreed.


    To the extent that Fi has some universal traits or features, the latter fifty percent (the non-Fi types) are going to be best positioned to identify those things. We Fi-Doms are not opaque, after all.
    But we are not transparent. If that were so, wouldn't INFP's be more universally understood? I've been here long enough to know that's not the case. Although, if you are saying that similar tactics can push an INFP's buttons, that is likely true. I could push other people's buttons as well, if I were so inclined. But when someone is sharing here on the forum on a personal level, I don't levy an attack when their soft underbelly is exposed. It's dishonorable. Making an Fi exploration is exposing that soft spot, those weak points. But necessary to foster understanding and comprehension. It simply saddens me when other people take advantage of it HERE, where it would be nice to actually feel SAFE.


    Yeah, there's going to be a lot of shouting in a thread open to all types. Some possessors of Fi are going to take a very personal approach and say, "I experience my Fi as such-and-such, so the description of Fi should be such-and-such too." Other personality types are going to get frustrated at that kind of personalization of an objective thing--a cognitive function--and they're going to raise a fuss about it. And they're right to do so. As I said, their job is to keep us honest.
    Nah, their job is to probe, query, even cajole ... but not to ridicule. Why do you feel this is "right"? Fi is not objective in the first place, which leads to the next point:

    My solution: I've found that the non-Fi types are generally willing to back off and give us some room to discuss things when asked politely. But in return, we have to keep the discussion "honest." IOW, I can't individually personalize the function and try to make the thread specifically about how I manifest my own Fi personally. The thread shouldn't be about me. If I try to make it about me, the non-Fi types are going to object. And naturally, my feelings are going to get hurt, since I've made the thread about ME.
    But Fi is personal; to me, it's an amalgamation of all of our individual experiences. Exploring that only serves to deepen understanding IMO, not discredit it. Heck, I wish more people would be honest about how they experience their Fi here ... I want that depth in order to refine my own understanding and appreciation. I need more data points than just my own.


    To make a comparison:

    It's like having a thread to define what constitutes "a good and complete definition of the female face."
    This example fails because it is about something one can see ... it's a subjective evaluation of an objective entity. The basis of comparison is already "in the light" - we can explore it fully with our 5 senses and agree or disagree with statements rendered about what makes one face beautiful and another not.

    Exploring Fi differs in that it is a subjective evaluation of the subjective ... BUT, by bringing one's own Fi experience to the real world it thus becomes a more quantifiable and definable entity capable of receiving objective critique. I would posit it is essential in order to create a definition that stands up to scrutiny. If I don't let you "see" my Fi, how can one define the indefinable? How can one challenge the subjective?


    Okay, getting back to Fi, what happens when someone personalizes the discussion, tries to make the thread about themselves and their relationship with their Fi, and they are dismissed by the other participants? What happens when, for example, I speak up and the other participants say things to me that that are "mocking, hurtful, and cruel"? I feel ashamed, and I learn a lesson.
    Shame is not a wonderful thing. Shame originates from being devalued as an individual, from being dehumanized, either by oneself or by others. Feelings of shame originate with the owner, as they compare themselves to (inner or outer, functional or dysfunctional) benchmarks of moral behaviour.

    If I intentionally hurt you (in a MOL universally accepted and agreed upon moral sense), and you point it out, and you say "PB, how could you do that to me?" then yes, I would be ashamed, because I have let myself behave in a less than compassionately human way. I have dishonored myself, disgraced myself.

    But what I hear you saying here is that if someone mocks me, humiliates me, for sharing who I am or what I think, I earned that somehow? That I deserved to be knocked down a peg or two, for being momentarily egocentric and talking about myself, even for a brief time?

    I cannot agree with this.


    In the case of those who personalize the subject matter to the point of making the thread "about them"--and then end up feeling ashamed when the point they are making is dismissed or rejected--the lesson is simple enough: You need to put your point in other language that the other participants will respect. Use a little Te and research the subject. Find some indication that the phenomenon exists outside the single example of you alone; back up your assertions with a citation from experts, or point out where the phenomenon is visibly manifested on the message board itself.
    IOW, I need to sanitize my thoughts to be politically correct for others. Hmmm, thanks for the suggestion; I only do that 99.99% of the time in my real life. I need no expert but of an understanding of myself to share about myself on this forum and to talk about Fi; the creation of this thread itself is an exemplar that in feeling "unsafe" to talk about Fi here I am not alone. Not at all. There's some Te real world data to chew on! That is the whole point of the thread. I sense and see a trend - if I complain about it myself, solo, it will fall on deaf ears - so I need more reference points, I need more data.

    Here it is.


    Or use your Te to compartmentalize: Learn to discuss Fi only in threads where NFs can post, i.e., where you can create your perfect audience, and stay out of threads for the entire population of 16 types.
    I don't need to isolate myself, have never done so thus far. I ignore most of the ridicule and mocking that Fi gets around the forum generally. I am saying - why do we accept this? Why is it so widespread? Why is it so accepted?

    It only takes one or two "bad" apples to rot the whole barrel unfortunately.


    In other words, don't let your Fi get injured; bring in another function (usually Te for Fi-Doms, though sometimes Fe is useful too) for support and reinforcement. Be realistic about what the situation demands if you really want to win your point. Remember the cardinal rule for performers: Know your audience.

    To sum up: If you really do want an open, freewheeling discussion about Fi with some real depth, then you need to invite in other types. Fifty percent of all types are going to have at least some direct, personal experience of Fi, and the other fifty percent of all types are probably going to have some experience of Fi from the outside. But that's a lot of variety of experience. You aren't going to get a free pass with that crowd.

    In a freewheeling discussion venue like this one, there's no harm in bringing up a personal observation of whatever nature. But by the same token, there's no harm when others dismiss it or even ridicule it. If you really think your point has validity, then be realistic about what the debate situation demands. Don't let your Fi get injured; bring in another function to counterbalance your Fi and put your argument in language the other participants will respect.
    I respect your POV, and your advice, I really do - I feel it coming from a good place in your heart; but I'm not 12 years old either. I pick my battles, and I am not looking for the free pass. The cardinal rule of performers is not know your audience - it's that the show must go on ... and I am still in here, still performing. I wish to drop the facades though from time to time and have a real discussion, and be true to who I am, and be respected for who I am. What I hear you saying is that is too much to ask.

    Perhaps in this regard, you are correct.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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    Well, there's really too much by way of response to answer everything or even a sizable portion. So I'm just going to skim across the top and try to pick out a couple central issues.

    1. I sympathize with you all. Frankly, I catch it from both sides. I catch it as much as anyone from non-INFPs; some folks see the "INFP" beneath my avatar and seem to do a bit of pushing just to see if I really can handle a bare-knuckles debate. And I don't begrudge them that little bit of testing--I understand the reason. On the other hand, as an older poster I also feel obliged to tell INFPs to "man up" at times as well. I had a rocky relationship with INFPs at INFP-gc, and I have a rocky relationship with INFPs at times here as well. So I catch it from INFPs as well. Again, I don't begrudge them the push-back; I understand where it's coming from.

    Still, what am I supposed to do about it, according to your rules? Shall I :steam: all the time with both INFPs and non-INFPs?

    Personally, my route is to try to reach out to my audience a bit: I use a little Te with non-NFs and maybe a little Fe with NFs. Fi is nice for a starting point, i.e. for finding my moral bearings when deciding my stand on an issue. But after that, there is still the issue of polishing my message for public consumption. Ne helps me find my voice, but Te and Fe help me connect better with my audience. Or to put it better, Te and Fe help me hear what my audience is trying to tell me and respond in kind.

    Spin it any way you want, but we're talking "real world" here: You can't climb up on a stage, put on an unpolished performance, and then insist that the audience has no right to boo you. If you want adulation for an unpolished performance, pick your audience appropriately; do your act where only NFs can get at it. On the other hand, if you want to perform for an audience of all types, then research your audience, polish your act, and get it right. Or prepare for catcalls and rotten tomatoes. That's the rules in the real world.

    2. As a corollary to my point above: In my previous post I put the words "mocking, hurtful, and cruel" in quotes as much for irony as anything else. Frankly I didn't see much in the earlier thread that was genuinely mocking, hurtful and cruel. What I saw was some personalization of the issue by INFPs, some push-back by non-INFPs, then a lot of stressed-out inferior Te from INFPs along the line of "I am Fi! Hear me roar! You have no right to disrespect me!", and finally a whole lot of irritation from non-INFPs.

    Just because it was a thread about Fi didn't mean that the Fi-Doms owned it. Furthermore, all this talk about needing a "safe environment" for expressing our Fi strikes my own Fi as bogus. We're all adults here; we shouldn't need safety nets.

    The message board specifically offers "safe environments" if you absolutely need that: The NF Private Forum and the NF Personal Threads. But for that very reason, the open forum has to be deemed "unsafe" (IOW, subject to normal adult debate and pushback) by comparison, and any insistence to the contrary is just your own spin. You'll have to quote chapter and verse from the FAQ to convince me otherwise.

    3. Just to wrap things up, I'll reiterate one more thing: Shame is good. Shame is a reality check. Everyone is subject to it equally. Shame teaches us lessons.

    People think of Fe as the main shaming function, but Fe-Doms are subject to it as well. I once saw an ENFJ boss whose section was hit by 50 percent layoffs. He ran around trying to help people, offer them a shoulder to cry on, and provide whatever help he could. Trouble was, he couldn't deliver anything of substance; in the end it was all just heat and noise. In the end, people still had to be laid off. People eventually got disgusted with this ENFJ boss and started mocking him. They didn't need a weepy buddy; they needed a boss who would act like a boss. Given the times and the situation, they preferred stability and predictability over warmth and weepiness. The boss needed to learn some Fi; he needed to respect the dignity of his office and play out the role that came with that office.

    Analytical types get shamed for being unfeeling robots, especially when they put their Dominant function on display too much and don't moderate it with some feeling. Fe-Doms get shamed for being good at superficial social connections but skittish about making deeper personal connections. Ne-Doms get shamed for being flakes. And so on.

    We all have roles to play in life, and as adults we're expected to play those roles in a complex and responsive manner. We can't be a one-trick pony (IOW play only to our Dominant function) and insist that the world adjust to us; if we play that game, we're going to be shamed for our troubles. Again, spin it any way you want, but that's the rules of the real world.

    And if we're smart, we'll be happy to have learned that lesson so cheaply. Because many of life's lessons come at much greater cost than a little public shame.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    1) I don't take this forum too seriously. If things get nasty, I either deliver a one-liner or just get myself out. Just because people on this board disagree with my ideas or feelings or whatever, that doesn't mean I need to to be insecure or totally conform or change my thoughts.

    2) People on this board does not represent the world at large; this is just a tiny tiny tiny fraction. Some members are really young, some members are really assholes. Not every conversation is mature or stimulating. If they are not, if they get nasty, I just check myself out. I am not going to spend a lot of energy arguing just to convince someone...who that person is, who knows. If I want to argue to clarify my own thinking process, then cool I will and it's helpful.

    3) I have read some really ridiculous threads on here and people still respond to them as if they are normal or worth responding to ... and they aren't about Fi. And some 'normal' threads that one member responds to. Feel free to be ridiculous and see what kind of responses you get.

    4) Don't make yourself vulnerable to an online community and expect all nice answers. Maybe that's what you mean by Fi thoughts. Not everyone knows how to respond to you in an appropriate and helpful manner. Be selective of your audience.

    5) What do you mean by Fi thoughts? Personal or more philosophical?

    I didn't read the thread where Fi was attacked or debated over. I am just responding to the general question here and how I express Fi so my post is out of context, just my general thoughts.

  7. #67
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Oh dear, this is starting to sound familiar. You guys are in serious danger of wandering into the 'blame the victim' territory, which is something I abhor.

    Personal attacks are never appropriate. They may be a regular feature in life that we must learn to endure (which I believe, we INFPs have been doing remarkably well here) but they are never warranted, and reacting with disgust and annoyance to them is perfectly natural.

    Expecting me to alter my behaviour when I am attacked is ridiculous. I am not the one with the problem.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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    Not an FP, but I feel for you all. There seems to be a strong bias against Fi users by certain members of this forum. It doesn't really make much sense. I was reading some from the thread that this one seems to be based off of, and all I can say is, wow. So much anger. I really don't get it.
    You lose.

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    Senior Member Eckhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Oh dear, this is starting to sound familiar. You guys are in serious danger of wandering into the 'blame the victim' territory, which is something I abhor.

    Personal attacks are never appropriate. They may be a regular feature in life that we must learn to endure (which I believe, we INFPs have been doing remarkably well here) but they are never warranted, and reacting with disgust and annoyance to them is perfectly natural.

    Expecting me to alter my behaviour when I am attacked is ridiculous. I am not the one with the problem.
    Yes, this, thank you!

  10. #70
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I'm to the point where I've learned how to navigate these waters and no longer feel the need to splash about or create waves. No, I do *not* feel safe to be completel vulnerable and 'fi' on these forums. I never have. And it did frustrate me, and annoy me (and thank god I missed the last thread gone awry), and it still makes me shake my head at times. I do feel for Fi-users, as their preferred function is beautiful in so many ways but has one disadvantage, if you will. It leaves them open and vulnerable to attack. That vulnerability and rawness is what makes Fi so precious, but also so misunderstood. It is something others don't prfer to show, are often not even aware that they have themselves as well. And it functions as a mirror for them, making them either lash out, or ashamed of themselves which they then project onto the Fi-user, who they are embarassed for then. It makes them mistake the intention of the Fi-user, which is to show the process of creation, for a finished product, that they should provide feedback on. That, imo, is how an Fi-user experiences this 'gap'.

    But typology taught me something else as well. There's a time and a place for every function. Where every function shines. And unfortunately for us, Fe rules at the group/community stuff. It's just where it is at its best. So, it overshadows Fi. And perhaps rightly so. It keeps the harmony and focus of the group safe. Fi, on the other hand, to me, is the tool to use one on one, when self-reflecting, when going into deep debate...when someone is in deep emotional distress and needs to figure out who they are in order to proceed, but also when ideas wrt beauty are born and expanded to make a great piece of art that will touch so many people in their own right. That's where Fi shines. Notice that this is usually one-on-one with someoen else, or by yourself. It *can* be expanded to perhaps 3, maybe 4 people. But after that, we're back into the territory of Fe, ime. Too many people with too different views to connect in that kind of deep way and expect harmony in the group. Does not work.

    Look around. This is a forum with how many people? We *are* on the turf of Fe. There is no question about this. So, it would stand to reason to utilize Fe in this setting. And if you are dying for an Fi-use, without having to adjust (coz Fe does feel tiresome to keep up for us especially after a while, and often causes resentment due to the differences in perspective), keep the number of people involved down. We do have one benefit here: it's a written medium. And INFPs are quite good at making written mediums their own *as long as they deliver a finished product* and even then you will get critique (cfr novels). So you do need to think twice, reread your draft, shorten your posts (I am *not* a good example!) and make them concise to captivate your audience, if you feel your 'pearl of wisdom' is worth this massive exposure.

    Interestingly, when we look at the NF types (don't know about the SF Types..have to think that through), you see this stuff reflected in the types as well although some flexibility is possible:

    ENFJ= ruler of harmony in great groups, keeping everyone happy and on their toes and moving towards a common goal, keeping a community on track and feeling as one family.
    INFJ= wing man of the ENFJ, and ime often the ones that help out with the people that need special care one on one, to get back on 'track' with the purpose of the group (shrinks)
    ENFP= entertainer, instigator and all around happy vibing person who bounces off of people...master of the 'tap on the shoulder' to then go 'phoof' and disappear. Only to come back later. Plays groups by the amount of energy and inspiration they instill, by keeping their encounters often one-on-one, deep, but SHORT to move on to the next person and do the same.
    INFP= The person who serves as a source of deep inspiration for those that need that one-on-one talk and are in need of a guide on their journey to find themselves. They do the long, one on one thing, with only very few people and only those who are in fact interested in that specific quest. They can reach a lot of people but often through an indirect medium, such as art, a novel, etc.

    All have their purposes, and all have their specific time to shine, their platform.
    That also means that you cannot get Fi-heavy and lengthy and in depth in a big group, without getting some serious resistance, as not everyone is up for that. And, because it is so personal and in depth, it's best to do it with a small number of people as it will be taxing to have all those personal views understood. So you can go like the enfp and keep it short, simple, sweet and sexy, which then invariably has a more lighthearted tone to it, risking it not being taken so seriously, but better received in the group. Or, you can express it via Fe..which is harder for us to use.

    For the best result, know thy context!
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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