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[Fi] INFP/ENFP: Do you feel "safe" to openly & freely share your thoughts about Fi here?

Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 60.6%
  • No

    Votes: 13 39.4%

  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .

sculpting

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In short, the Fi-users conflated a few incidents to a widespread attack, and non-Fi-users (let's see if I can add another hyphen) threw out the baby with the bathwater by combining legitimate complaints with some overly dramatic whinging and dismissing it all.

I agree, but I'd be hesitant to label oneself a "victim" to claim moral high ground. Real victimization is rare on the internet (just log out, no one is forcing you to participate). If you view every major clash or disagreement in this light, eventually no one will take you seriously and just see you as a drama queen.

There is something bizarre that happens when an Fe user tries to give feedback to an Fi user. It appears as though we totally miss all the subtle hints being tossed out, then when finally the message becomes more overt and direct-we way over react. Typically when the message is delivered it is like this (sorry not picking on you MacGuffin :) ) :

Just know I'm not the only one that sees them in that way.

Since Fi users primarily interact 1:1, when we get this sort of message above....we may promptly extrapolate that to the entire group. Because most of us are Fe-Blind, (not the learned social nicieties, but the ability to innately pick up on group mood), we cant seem to understand if it is just macGuffin saying we are being bad but bluffing about the others, if it is MacGuffin and three friends he chatted with in PM, or if it is MacGuffin and the other 1300 members of typology central.

In a thread if we start to see multiple people-say 3 to 5-attacking the same point, I suspect we start to assume it is a much larger group. It feels like you have been turned into a target for attack-like you are being singled out. ENFPs in particular are notorious for paranoia about what others think of us and assuming the worst, so to remain functional human beings, at some point we learn to just ignore the Ne negative feedback that is subtle in nature. I cant properly interpret it or trust the interpretations thus it is disregarded as it would make me a fucking basket case to do otherwise. I realize some people hate me as a result and I regret this, but I dont really have an alternate path.

I have tried a few times to suggest that if you really feel direct feedback needs to be given, and the person seems oblivious, to leave them a rep or send a PM to try and alleviate the potential for confusion and minimize escalation of these sorts of issues. The Fe response was that "It should be obvious and is a natural part of social interactions, and we shouldnt have to tell people when they are disturbing a social group." This frustrated me at the time, but in retrospect I recognized it was just Fe being projected onto others-ie the assumption we can all use Fe as well as that individual can.

The NFJ discussion style makes this even worse as NiFeTi assumes the idea is the person. So when they question the idea-they actually begin questioning the person ...how they arent really a valid originator of ideas, thus need to go work on themselves some more. I bet, when this is applied to an NTP, the NTP STFU very quickly as he has been publically censured. But to an NFP-you are attacking Fi at that point, so instead of a shameful retreat, you get Te bitchslapped at least until the NFP has a total emo breakdown because you have told them everything they hold sacred and that is self defining is horribly flawed. The feelings this evokes can be nightmarishly painful-thus the feeling of being attacked.

At the worst, you just told them the entire social group finds their Fi values to be flawed-thus they are too broken to be a part of that social group anymore. In real life this evokes suicidal tendencies. Thus the NFP message board suicides.

I suspect it has something to do with how one Fi user gives another negative feedback-one on one, directly, but gently or through gentle ignoring until the other person behaves-subtle looks and gestures. Fe seems to instead prefer a gentle rebuke in a group setting through phrases intended to induce slight shame at one's innappropriate behavior-or innappropriate sharing of ideas. Which Fi totally misinterprets.

We each insist that others must be held to the standards of our judging functions and regard alternate perspectives/judging worldviews as flawed rather than insightfully different. We also insist upon projecting our internal worldviews onto others as mandatory, without every understanding we are doing so.​

(Again, sorry MacGuffin, I find you to be very thoughtful and reasonable so I dont mean to poke at you at all, your comment above was a useful starting point. Also the NFJs here are actually a really awesome group as well. :hug:)

:solidarity: (toddler inserted) :devil: (toddler inserted) :wubbie: (toddler inserted)
 

sculpting

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Messages
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This might explain how the INTJ approach doesn't seem to run into the same crash and burn as the NFP approach.

INTJ: You're wrong. <explains in detail why you're wrong>
non-INTJ: We don't like your attitude.
INTJ: Um, you're still wrong.
non-INTJ: You're so f-cking arrogant and you don't even know it.
INTJ: Uh huh. You're still wrong.
non-INTJ: Well, you might have a point, but you're still arrogant.
INTJ: Well, if by "arrogant" you mean that I always seem to be right, I must agree. :devil:

versus

NFP: There's something wrong here.
non-NFP: What are you complaining about now?
NFP: This isn't right.
non-NFP: It's perfectly fine.
NFP: What do you mean it's perfectly fine? I just explained what was wrong with it.
non-NFP: There you go getting all emotional and sensitive again.
NFP: <now upset> I am NOT getting emotional! And it's unfair of you to change the topic like that!
non-NFP: You're proving my point for me.
NFP: Arrrrgggghhhh!

[The above is not meant to be insulting to INTJs or NFPs or non-INTJs or non-NFPs, but is intended solely as tongue-in-cheek humor to demonstrate a point.]

I believe this is where FineLine has made a very meaningful distinction. It is well and good to point out the emperor has no clothes, but at some point Fi needs to have a bit more of an iron will and not buckle in to intimidation or be distracted by jabs and taunts. Every post that says no more than "Stop being so mean!" ends up saying/meaning/implying/communicating A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MESSAGE THAN YOU INTEND!!!!! The intended message is "the emperor has no clothes" not "you're mean."

The way to get others to "accommodate another communication style ..." is to stick to your main message, ignoring distractions. The communication style to emphasize is pointing out those things that Fi is so good and understanding and pointing out.

The kind of things Fi points out are big. They have to be pretty darn big in the first place to get meek Fi to speak up at all. They're so big in fact, that a lot of people don't want to hear them in the first place. This is why I like the "emperor has no clothes" metaphor: the whole point of the story is that a LOT of people had a vested interest in ignoring that truth. Those people will not simply just say, "Oh darn, the jig is up," and throw in the towel. No, they're going to fight and disagree and say all sorts of mean things.

Those arguing from an Fi perspective say that they're fighting for their integrity, and I believe that is an accurate statement. Note, however, that people saying mean things is no threat to anyone's integrity! It is the denial of the truth that is the threat to integrity. So if you're going to take a stand for truth, fight for the truth. Don't fight for your ego. Don't fight for your bruised feelings. To "defend" against such "attacks" is a disservice to your integrity.

This is one of the hardest Fi-lessons to learn.

I think the hard part of this is that NFPs have Ne on the top side, not Ni. We are designed to incorporate external emotional feedback a lot for Ne doms or a little for Ne auxs. We cannot help but hear those external emotional messages as a result-something INTJs are almost immune to. I suspect this is important in where and when we choose to externalize Fi values and is an important part of being an NFP.

If we do pick a cause which is important enough to stand up for-to pull out the Te walls of steel and fortitude-if we are given feedback by the masses that our cause is totally unreasonable-well I suppose that is an important thing to know....if we didnt take that feedback in we would end up with terrorist or PETA mindsets. We are designed to take in external feedback, unlike an INTJ.

I think maybe here-the Fi users are MUCH MUCH more open than in real life. Thus you see all the little causes as well as the big causes??

Also Ti sees Fi as insanely nonsensical thus reads "whining" or "stupid" because it cant always understand the Fi arguments-Ti is actually the, ummmm, stupid one in these cases and responds with the Ti version of "you are being mean" which goes something like "you are being illogical". It's kind of funny oddly.

:wubbie: :hug: :wubbie:
 

MacGuffin

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There is something bizarre that happens when an Fe user tries to give feedback to an Fi user. It appears as though we totally miss all the subtle hints being tossed out, then when finally the message becomes more overt and direct-we way over react. Typically when the message is delivered it is like this (sorry not picking on you MacGuffin :) )

If you can believe it, I edited it several times to be less harsh than my first draft. :)
 

Seymour

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I did note a few accusations of "hypocrisy" which is a typical of the Ti/Fe mode of communication: lack of logical self-consistency (whether real or imagined) is reason enough to question others' assertions. What I think is missed is that Fi "hypocrisy" is not of similar value to Fi ... or rather that the analogous Fi(Te) notion is "lack of integrity," not "hypocrisy." That when Fi says, "Hey, wait, there's something wrong here," it doesn't mean "logically wrong," but rather wwwrrroooooonnnng.

Fi hones in on inconsistencies in values, connotations and aesthetics. It can be a relatively small inconsistency (like noticing the connotation of a particular word choice is off) or a big, ethetical one.

This might explain how the INTJ approach doesn't seem to run into the same crash and burn as the NFP approach.

INTJ: You're wrong. <explains in detail why you're wrong>
non-INTJ: We don't like your attitude.
INTJ: Um, you're still wrong.
non-INTJ: You're so f-cking arrogant and you don't even know it.
INTJ: Uh huh. You're still wrong.
non-INTJ: Well, you might have a point, but you're still arrogant.
INTJ: Well, if by "arrogant" you mean that I always seem to be right, I must agree. :devil:

versus

NFP: There's something wrong here.
non-NFP: What are you complaining about now?
NFP: This isn't right.
non-NFP: It's perfectly fine.
NFP: What do you mean it's perfectly fine? I just explained what was wrong with it.
non-NFP: There you go getting all emotional and sensitive again.
NFP: <now upset> I am NOT getting emotional! And it's unfair of you to change the topic like that!
non-NFP: You're proving my point for me.
NFP: Arrrrgggghhhh!

[The above is not meant to be insulting to INTJs or NFPs or non-INTJs or non-NFPs, but is intended solely as tongue-in-cheek humor to demonstrate a point.]

I don't think it's offensive at all and it does explain a big challenge for Fi, in particular. Te and Ti are logically based, and so can be more easily communicated and separated from their context. You can validate them externally. Fe has a external social framework it uses for validation. Fi lacks any of that, and can be very difficult to articulate. Most of us are forced, by training and necessity, to learn to turn "something feels off here" into a "(semi)-detailed (perhaps metaphor laden) explanation of why things are wrong." But again, we are continually translating out of our native tongue to do so, and some of us are better at it than others.

The kind of things Fi points out are big. They have to be pretty darn big in the first place to get meek Fi to speak up at all. They're so big in fact, that a lot of people don't want to hear them in the first place. This is why I like the "emperor has no clothes" metaphor: the whole point of the story is that a LOT of people had a vested interest in ignoring that truth. Those people will not simply just say, "Oh darn, the jig is up," and throw in the towel. No, they're going to fight and disagree and say all sorts of mean things.

In the real world that things that make Fi become externally uncompromising are big, I agree. One of the attractions of a forum for some of us is that it provides a venue where we can share some of our normally less visible style and process with others. Trying to figure out what Fi is internally is a difficult process for NFPs, because it's normally not very visible to others, even other NFP-ers.

Sharing the personal, subjective experience is the only way to make it visible. Sadly, that gets interpreted as self-absorbed ("It's not all about your subjective experience, bucko!") or whiny ("Why do you keep talking about your emotional response to things? My 7 year-old knows better!").

Those arguing from an Fi perspective say that they're fighting for their integrity, and I believe that is an accurate statement. Note, however, that people saying mean things is no threat to anyone's integrity! It is the denial of the truth that is the threat to integrity. So if you're going to take a stand for truth, fight for the truth. Don't fight for your ego. Don't fight for your bruised feelings. To "defend" against such "attacks" is a disservice to your integrity.

This is one of the hardest Fi-lessons to learn.

I agree that saying mean things is not an attack on integrity. Instead, it's an attack on the integrity of our process. While emotions aren't Fi, they are valuable input to Fi decision making. If someone attacks, they muddy the very sensitivity we use to hone in on what's out of balance. We are then forced to shift gears, deal with whatever emotional response their attack engendered, and only then can we recalibrate and return to the original problem.

It's as though there's someone deliberately singing out of key during a choir practice. Yes, you can try to ignore them and keep singing ("no one is stopping you from singing, after all"), but the chances of actually getting anything worthwhile done drops to near zero.

Perhaps this is why the Fi-objections get characterized as "whining." The "reason" that is heard for it being wrong is the emotional tone of the objection when the real reason is, "it's wrong."

The emotional tone created is part of why it's not just ignorable. It's disruptive and stops real communication and the sense of a shared Fi process (something relatively rare for us).
 

proteanmix

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Ahh, vanity search. I see my name popped up!

It's a lot of stuff to address here and I don't really have the energy to do so, but this whole "the emperor wears no clothes" metaphor comes across as disingenuous. To me (I speak for no group) it's implying that Fi holds some kind of truth that no one else recognizes or is so dangerous that it must be suppressed and squelched. Does that not seem over the top and stretching it a bit or is it me?

A phrase that's been tossed around in this thread is "my radar has gone off and I must investigate." So be it. I also think when "radar" goes off part of investigating it is checking to see if it's even functioning correctly. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, but I'm going to say this plainly: checking with others who are likely to share your perspective isn't a very thorough, reliable, or trustworthy way of checking.

If I may continue with the radar metaphor, wiki says there are these things called limiting factors that can decrease the accuracy of the radar. It seems to me that FineLine (as a Fi user) and non-Fi's are addressing these limiting factors and it's being portrayed as trying to hide the truth, suppressing NFPs from speaking freely or not having a safe place to speak.

I see little acknowledgment of Fi limiting factors going on here. Frankly, I see people trying to make themselves the underdog and victimized, that anything they say is quickly suppressed and they're a few steps away from being locked in a cellar. Dollar for dollar, Fi is the most discussed function on this forum, second only to either of the intuition functions, which everyone knows are the Holy Grails. These are just a few I grabbed:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/10318-fi-you-only-get-if-you-got-61.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-tm-other-personality-matrices/29965-fi-doms-subs-5.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/33961-fi-way-bonding-6.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-tm-other-personality-matrices/23662-advantage-fi-4.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-tm-other-personality-matrices/5410-fi-analysis.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...236-tips-tricks-staying-off-fi-ride-doom.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-tm-other-personality-matrices/27301-baffled-fi.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27349&highlight=
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25772&highlight=
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26013&highlight=

I challenge people to find the same amount of threads where Fe is discussed in isolation of another function to plumb its depths (Fe has depths? Er?). Fe doesn't even usually get a thread solely dedicated to itself unless it's negative (manipulative, conformist, EVIL) or another Fe vs. Fi feeding frenzy.

Now time for some numbers. I'd like to point out that if NFPs (is this extended to SFPs and TJs?) feel like they're a oppressed minority on the forum, why don't you check your numbers? There are 1738 members on this forum who identify as NFP, compared to NFJ 1064, and SFJ 126. The largest source of Fe is from NTPs at 1608. I searched this through the member list and it only takes into account people who list their type. To me it seems like NFPs represent the largest single typological clump on the forum. And this isn't even the first time this has come up, this is the latest in a history of threads that claim Fi is the little wimpy kid getting pushed of the swing and pounded in the dirt by the mean ol Fe bully.

How is your "voice" repressed? You certainly have the majority even if you don't use it. It seems to me that NFPs have very much taken advantage of having the mic, over and over again. Which is fine, no one is stopping you that's what makes the forum active and communal. Just please don't do the whole unsafe, victim thing. I definitely agree with orobas that your message is weakened when you come at it from this angle. And it's not even a matter of it being true, and no one being receptive to it and shut it down. I frankly don't see adequate foundation for the premise. I speak for myself and not any group.

If NFPs don't feel "safe" on this forum is it necessarily a problem with the forum or it a problem more central to yourself...that you don't feel comfortable not that some outside force is making you feel uncomfortable. Then I'd ask if others also felt uncomfortable to see if there are any similarities. But once again, I realize that's my Fe talking; figuring out is it just me or am I the only one is a big deal to me...I don't view my feelings as automatically justified and valid without seeking some external confirmation.

Regarding the Fe Quick Reference Guide, go back and check. Within the first 10 posts of the thread, there were Fi users complaining about the Fi Quick Reference in the Fe thread. Keep your complaints about your Quick Reference in your Quick Reference. Why contaminate two threads? Yes that is my Fe talking, it looks it was necessary to ruin someone's else because you didn't like yours. I looked again at the Fi QR and it wasn't Fe users in there complaining about the Fe QR, which is the parallel.

I did wonder why the Fi QR soured, fermented, and exploded so quickly, when the other QR's came and went without much fanfare. The question that comes to me is why were the others so neutrally received and commented on, while the Fi QR was totally wrong, nothing was right about it, completely off-base and unrepresentative of Fi. If the author was accurate enough to get the others right, why was the Fi one so wrong? Certainly, they would have gotten some of the others wrong as well? There did seem to me to be a Princess and the Pea/Goldilocks situation going on that it was never going to be right no matter what.

These are really all the comments and observations I have, so don't feel slighted or like I'm ignoring anyone if I don't respond if someone directly addresses me.
 

Adasta

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This forum has a pernicious tendency towards inane conflict.

proteanmix, I don't really understand why the number of Fi users here has any bearing people's feelings regarding the expression of Fi. It's not a battle, which is what you seem to be saying, but then undermine your argument by saying:

Fe doesn't even usually get a thread solely dedicated to itself unless it's negative

What of it? Is Fe now the one victimised? So now Fi is "bad"? The answer is that it doesn't really matter at all. This argument/situation strikes me as very petty from both sides. We're not (or, at least, I'm not) attempting to laud Fi over Fe, or denigrate Fe, or Te, or anything else. I'm just talking about things in these threads. There really is no need, ever, to become haughty or angry or upset in these threads. It's just a forum after all.

This place isn't a playground, yet there seems to be a lot of egos on show, from all sides.
 

slowriot

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one point: infpgc


/end thread :devil:

EDIT: I really like xnfps, but you need to stop idealizing Fi so much
 

uumlau

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I think the hard part of this is that NFPs have Ne on the top side, not Ni. We are designed to incorporate external emotional feedback a lot for Ne doms or a little for Ne auxs. We cannot help but hear those external emotional messages as a result-something INTJs are almost immune to. I suspect this is important in where and when we choose to externalize Fi values and is an important part of being an NFP.

I think the bolded observation is quite apt.

I feel the same frustration with lack of validation as the Ne+Fi people do. I listen to others value-laden observations and take them to heart, thinking that they couldn't have said anything so harsh as they did and not really mean it, and not really see/understand something I'm missing. Keep in mind, this routes to my Fi, which has that very same, similar approach/feeling as it does for NFPs. The hurt feeling is just as "loud."

But in my case, with Ni instead of Ne, and especially because Ni is dominant, it just bounces around inside me. I feel a very strong dischord, but I do not express that discord. This is very similar to just Ni+Te, except Fi is strongly involved, too.

In the plain Ni+Te case, when I don't understand something, I sit back and observe and assimilate and let the ideas bounce around in my head. Eventually, the ideas "settle," and because I let them settle of their own accord (an Ni sort of thing to do), I know I have things figured out correctly, and then I can express them. The certainty/arrogance with which I express those ideas is largely derived from this kind of "internal, subjective validation." Ni "just knows" that the ideas are valid. ;)

In the Ni+Te+Fi case, there is a lot more turmoil, a lot more "bouncing around," but it still isn't extrovertedly expressed. When it settles, I "just know" that I have it figured out. Note that it isn't just the Ni piece that settles. Fi has to settle within me, too. Then, when I express myself, I've "counted to ten," so to speak. All the nonsense that was in the message sent to me (whether intentional or inadvertent, it doesn't matter and I don't care which) has been filtered out, and I am no longer distressed by the dischord that was initially invoked.

For the Fi+Ne case, there is no "count to ten" period. The invoked response is immediately extroverted, without any waiting period or time to settle and filter out nonsense. Or rather, the nonsense has been detected, and that's what the Fi reaction means, but its expression is "Ne": Ne is wired into the people and the world around, and the signals go both ways.

Note that Ti+Ne has the same thing going on, as Oro noted, it's just that expressing annoyance at others' illogic doesn't gain the same kind of rebuke as expressing annoyance at others' insensitivity. Similarly, "you're being too logical about this" doesn't have the same sting as "you're being too sensitive about this".

I wonder how Se instead of Ne, for SFPs, changes things. Might this be an Ne issue more than an Fi issue? Is Se+Fi more likely to give a context that others readily understand, and thus avoids the projection of "being oversensitive?" I'd be interested in SFP input, here.


I don't think it's offensive at all and it does explain a big challenge for Fi, in particular. Te and Ti are logically based, and so can be more easily communicated and separated from their context. You can validate them externally. Fe has a external social framework it uses for validation. Fi lacks any of that, and can be very difficult to articulate. Most of us are forced, by training and necessity, to learn to turn "something feels off here" into a "(semi)-detailed (perhaps metaphor laden) explanation of why things are wrong." But again, we are continually translating out of our native tongue to do so, and some of us are better at it than others.

I hear you ... but I'm continually translating out of my Ni tongue, too. Just read the INxJ posters who haven't quite differentiated a strong Te or Fe to give their remarks context. The main difference is the "pure Ni" comes out has harmless babble or weird crazy talk, that sort of sounds like it means something meaningful, if only one could figure out the context. "Pure Fi" on the other hand comes out as emo-sensitive talk, similarly lacking context, except others project their own context (that it's whiny, for example).

In the real world that things that make Fi become externally uncompromising are big, I agree. One of the attractions of a forum for some of us is that it provides a venue where we can share some of our normally less visible style and process with others. Trying to figure out what Fi is internally is a difficult process for NFPs, because it's normally not very visible to others, even other NFP-ers.
I get this: note my remarks about letting it bounce around inside me for a while.

Sharing the personal, subjective experience is the only way to make it visible. Sadly, that gets interpreted as self-absorbed ("It's not all about your subjective experience, bucko!") or whiny ("Why do you keep talking about your emotional response to things? My 7 year-old knows better!").
Yep. This is the projection of others' context onto the "pure Fi".

I agree that saying mean things is not an attack on integrity. Instead, it's an attack on the integrity of our process. While emotions aren't Fi, they are valuable input to Fi decision making. If someone attacks, they muddy the very sensitivity we use to hone in on what's out of balance. We are then forced to shift gears, deal with whatever emotional response their attack engendered, and only then can we recalibrate and return to the original problem.
@bolded: I find that I must disagree. The next step is to intuitively equate the "integrity of our process" with "our integrity," which leaves us back at square one.

Let me take a step back and state a more general rule:
Quibbling over the terms of debate (e.g., in this case, complaining that someone is being whiny, instead of attempting to understand the full message) is a common means of obfuscating the debate. The counter is to resist the temptation to enter this "meta-discussion" about how communication "should" occur, but to stick to one's original topic.

I think Oro's point about Ne is apt, here. Ne seems more likely to get drawn into tangential topics, at which point it is almost too late for Fi to object and bring the focus back to the main topic.

It's as though there's someone deliberately singing out of key during a choir practice. Yes, you can try to ignore them and keep singing ("no one is stopping you from singing, after all"), but the chances of actually getting anything worthwhile done drops to near zero.

The emotional tone created is part of why it's not just ignorable. It's disruptive and stops real communication and the sense of a shared Fi process (something relatively rare for us).

I would agree with you up to a point. This is an internet forum. It isn't like someone is singing off key in real time. We have every chance to just get up and walk away from the computer screen. We don't have to immediately submit a post expressing our outrage or dismay. In real life, we have maybe a few seconds to think about what we say, but here, we have, in theory, hours, if not days. Yes, the emotional tone is jarring, but it isn't as compulsory, is it?

Given the time to think, why is it still so tempting to reply with, "Why are you attacking me?" We have seen thread after thread disintegrate the moment we go down this path, yet the temptation persists? Is the lesson never learned?

OrangeAppled noted an uncommon stability in my thread about Fi from a while back:
I noticed that when an INTJ made a Fi thread some time ago, the discussion was validated by others, and the viewpoint from the INTJ was taken seriously (can't remember the poster name....sorry). That's frustrating. It's not that the thread was not interesting or not accurate, but it illustrates how Fi discussed by Fi-ers in a Fi way is invalidated by comparison. I wonder if we had "NT" under our avatars if our comments would be taken differently (I think so)*.


*It's also interesting how that loooong Ni thread was explored in a similar vein, and no one got all pissy about it.

I believe her observation that the "INTJ discussion of Fi" had a tone of respect that is often lacking in other Fi threads is apt. It is so very easy to dismiss it as having "NT" under one's avatars. But go look at that thread: it was not without it's accusations/attacks.

In particular, Night was accusing PeaceBaby of being unfair to me. I addressed that issue by explicitly saying I wanted to hear her input, and no mod needed to come in and "prune" any "offending" posts.

Sim chimed in with points about Fe. It could have devolved into an Fi/Fe debate. I PM'd him that he could start his own Fe thread, but that this discussion was about Fi.

You see what I was doing? I wasn't responding to any perceived attacks in a defensive way. Rather, I stuck to my topic, namely Fi. In so doing, I think we can objectively read that thread and see that I perhaps created the very "safe space" that PB would like to see.

"The discussion was validated by others," as OrangeAppled so aptly puts it. Why? Surely not just because there's an "NT" below my name.

How do I know this?

Because we're having the same kind of discussion here, in PB's thread.

This thread doesn't lack the antagonistic elements, but PB has been systematically and respectfully addressing them, just as I did in my thread.

In other words, it's doable. The lessons in communication can be learned and put into play.
 

Seymour

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Nice post, Uumlau!

For the Fi+Ne case, there is no "count to ten" period. The invoked response is immediately extroverted, without any waiting period or time to settle and filter out nonsense. Or rather, the nonsense has been detected, and that's what the Fi reaction means, but its expression is "Ne": Ne is wired into the people and the world around, and the signals go both ways.

I do agree about the NTJs letting things bounce around a bit more. And, most of us NFPs learn not make the vast majority of our initial emotional response visible, and to analyze it until it can be expressed in ways that are palatable to other types. However, that means we are limited to our own evaluations, and what's visible externally isn't the thought process that led us to our conclusions.

So that means a lot of our perceptions and "early warning cues" remain internal, and the value of those responses is lost unless we personally can reach a conclusion. When interacting with other Fi-ers, you can sometimes pool your individual Fi-based responses, and then analyze them to see if a pattern emerges. That's rare to find in real life, but something I value here.

Note that Ti+Ne has the same thing going on, as Oro noted, it's just that expressing annoyance at others' illogic doesn't gain the same kind of rebuke as expressing annoyance at others' insensitivity. Similarly, "you're being too logical about this" doesn't have the same sting as "you're being too sensitive about this".

Good point. And I think it's true that annoyed logical critiques sometimes use words that NFPs wouldn't use unless they trying to hurt. That doesn't help the dynamic... since the causes of the responses on each side get misattributed, and then things cascade from there.

@bolded: I find that I must disagree. The next step is to intuitively equate the "integrity of our process" with "our integrity," which leaves us back at square one.

Well, I actually waffled on word choice there. I tried "mechanism of our process," but the machine/technology connotations of "mechanism" seemed ridiculous to apply to Fi. Still, I agree that it does lead back to the original problem, so some other phrasing might have been better. Nonetheless, the problem of the disruption to process remains.

I would agree with you up to a point. This is an internet forum. It isn't like someone is singing off key in real time. We have every chance to just get up and walk away from the computer screen. We don't have to immediately submit a post expressing our outrage or dismay. In real life, we have maybe a few seconds to think about what we say, but here, we have, in theory, hours, if not days. Yes, the emotional tone is jarring, but it isn't as compulsory, is it?

Actually, that's a big struggle for me (and I think many Fi-ers). In a way, our emotional reactions are compulsory to a certain degree. We can't avoid awareness of them. We can ignore them, but in doing so we lose our primary means of evaluating the world around us. I often become very irritated with myself that I just can't just let certain things slide off my back. Sometimes my emotional reactions are unreasonable (on some level), but I still have to deal with them, reasonable or not. Still, in those cases I try to minimize their impact on others. And, as we get older I think we gain a greater ability to influence and manage our emotional states, but it's never absolute.

Personally, when I am irritated I try to avoid posting until I've cooled down and can analyze why I'm irritated more fully or can express my reasons in calmer terms.

In some ways, that feels unfair, since it feels as though a logical critique can be delivered in highly emotional language and gets regarded as valid, but a Fi-based critique seems to need highly neutral language backed by some logical reasoning in order not to be dismissed. Perhaps that's just the way the world works (or even a misperception caused by my own bias), but does get a little subjectively tiresome at times.

You see what I was doing? I wasn't responding to any perceived attacks in a defensive way. Rather, I stuck to my topic, namely Fi. In so doing, I think we can objectively read that thread and see that I perhaps created the very "safe space" that PB would like to see.

"The discussion was validated by others," as OrangeAppled so aptly puts it. Why? Surely not just because there's an "NT" below my name.

How do I know this?

Because we're having the same kind of discussion here, in PB's thread.

This thread doesn't lack the antagonistic elements, but PB has been systematically and respectfully addressing them, just as I did in my thread.

In other words, it's doable. The lessons in communication can be learned and put into play.

I agree that it is doable, and it's something we should strive for. That kind of patient, measured, consistent management of the process seems like the kind of thing that Je is better at, typically. I think it's very much a learned skill for NFPs. (Although maybe I'm wrong, and just can't think up good examples to the contrary... other than PeaceBaby's thread management.) Still, it's something that can be learned.
 

uumlau

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It's a lot of stuff to address here and I don't really have the energy to do so, but this whole "the emperor wears no clothes" metaphor comes across as disingenuous. To me (I speak for no group) it's implying that Fi holds some kind of truth that no one else recognizes or is so dangerous that it must be suppressed and squelched. Does that not seem over the top and stretching it a bit or is it me?

I find that this is a helpful observation. :)

Note how a simple metaphor, intended to describe something from a particular point of view, immediately strikes you as "disingenuous." Instead of using the metaphor as a bridge to figure out what is being meant, and ironing out your own cognitive dissonance, you instead apply a judgment to the metaphor, dismissing it because you find it inapplicable.

It is this very dismissal that gets Fi up in arms.

I should note that I'm not saying "it's you" or blaming you or Fe or Fi or anyone for how these interactions go down. I'm saying "let's take a step back and see how the interaction plays out." Further, note that my prior posts don't let Fi "off the hook" for contributing to further misunderstanding. I'm making a strong effort not to pick sides.

What I see playing out is that that kind of dismissal (and dismissal or devaluing is a common Fi point in these threads) essentially says, in Fi terms, "What you say doesn't count." Not "it doesn't make sense to me" or "I don't understand what you mean, could you be more clear" or even "perhaps that is a bit off the mark" but "You are wrong" and "Your ideas don't matter."

This is not what the Fe side is saying at all, of course. It's that the Fe/Ti confusion over the Fi remarks tends to get expressed in ways that Fi can easily take personally.

A phrase that's been tossed around in this thread is "my radar has gone off and I must investigate." So be it. I also think when "radar" goes off part of investigating it is checking to see if it's even functioning correctly.
Right. You're analyzing the metaphor. You're double-checking. You're asking, "are we sure this is correct?" This is a valid approach.

I'm not trying to piss anyone off, but I'm going to say this plainly: checking with others who are likely to share your perspective isn't a very thorough, reliable, or trustworthy way of checking.
Except it's Fi-dar, not Fe-dar. We've got two brands of radar, here, that work very differently. This is one of Jung's primary points.

It's an Fi-dar user who is double-checking that his/her Fi-dar is working correctly. Fe-dar expertise isn't merely "a different perspective" but a qualitatively different approach. Radar (Fe) and sonar (Fi) work on similar principles, but the sonar guys are using techniques that are very different from what the radar guys use. The radar guys see very specific dots on a screen, and (to push the analogy further) wonder why those dots aren't obvious to the sonar users. But the sonar users don't have dots on a screen, they have "pings" and "signatures." The "pings" are similar to the "dots", but the "signatures" are a completely different concept altogether, and contain information that is unavailable to radar. [E.g., different submarines/propellers/engines/ships sound different. See the movie "Red October" for a popular dramatization.] So Fi points out a "signature" and the Fe openly wonders what's up with that, because there is no such thing as a "signature" in radar, and thus questions whether Fi is reading things correctly at all.

If I may continue with the radar metaphor, wiki says there are these things called limiting factors that can decrease the accuracy of the radar. It seems to me that FineLine (as a Fi user) and non-Fi's are addressing these limiting factors and it's being portrayed as trying to hide the truth, suppressing NFPs from speaking freely or not having a safe place to speak.
Thus if I may continue with my radar/sonar metaphor, the sonar has different strengths and limiting factors that don't exist for radar. The "expertise" in one doesn't transfer to the other, though both rely upon seemingly similar techniques.

I did wonder why the Fi QR soured, fermented, and exploded so quickly, when the other QR's came and went without much fanfare. The question that comes to me is why were the others so neutrally received and commented on, while the Fi QR was totally wrong, nothing was right about it, completely off-base and unrepresentative of Fi. If the author was accurate enough to get the others right, why was the Fi one so wrong? Certainly, they would have gotten some of the others wrong as well? There did seem to me to be a Princess and the Pea/Goldilocks situation going on that it was never going to be right no matter what.

These are really all the comments and observations I have, so don't feel slighted or like I'm ignoring anyone if I don't respond if someone directly addresses me.

It's definitely an odd phenomenon. I think looking at Ni vs Fi helps a bit. Ni is tough to describe/understand and most people with any understanding of Ni acknowledge that it's just a difficult topic to cover, and extend a degree of patience when covering it for that very reason.

Fi is just as tough to describe/understand, with one major difference. Fi is emotionally loaded, where Ni is not. For whatever reason, Ni tends to accept being misunderstood with equanimity (though we find it endlessly frustrating), but Fi tends to more readily become upset by being misunderstood.

This is why I compared the INTJ (NiFi) and NFP (NeFi) approaches, earlier. The hard lesson for Fi to learn is to accept being misunderstood as part of the process of communication. I believe "integrity" (as Fi/Te understands "integrity" in a very specific way) is the path for Fi to follow; that being misunderstood, no matter how painful, is not a violation of integrity. The "signature" of being misunderstood is a different signature than "integrity violation," but to many Fi people, especially those younger and more inexperienced, they have the same signature.
 

sculpting

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I challenge people to find the same amount of threads where Fe is discussed in isolation of another function to plumb its depths (Fe has depths? Er?). Fe doesn't even usually get a thread solely dedicated to itself unless it's negative (manipulative, conformist, EVIL) or another Fe vs. Fi feeding frenzy.

so-wrt threads about Fi-I'd almost suggest part of what you are seeing is us Fi folks using Te to dissect Fi. We put it out there on the "idea table" and then dig and poke at it and bounce our sloppy Te ideas off one another to try and get a better understanding of where we are wrong. So it ends up with lots of threads.

The Fe users-INFJs at least-have actually noted at times feeling as though they were actually waiting for someone to invite them to post on threads-without that invite they dont feel comfortable speaking up-thus perhaps that is part of the reason there are not so many Fe threads.

Also-Your radar analogy gave me Ne orgasms. Really. It made my brain go ooooooo! and awwwwwww! It was a bit like the day my INTJ love compared Ni to differential geometry....*swoons* :)

It's a lot of stuff to address here and I don't really have the energy to do so, but this whole "the emperor wears no clothes" metaphor comes across as disingenuous. To me (I speak for no group) it's implying that Fi holds some kind of truth that no one else recognizes or is so dangerous that it must be suppressed and squelched. Does that not seem over the top and stretching it a bit or is it me?

Every function-Fi, Ti, Fe and Te-all hold truths that people who use the other functions will not recognize. We are all blinded to whole aspects of reality-kinda like we are in a multidimensional world, but we can only see certain dimensions. We have to rely upon people who can see those other dimension to explain to us what they see there-which sometimes will contradict what we see in our own dimensions. But it can be hard, especially if the delivery of the message violates our values or if the content of the message violates our values.
 

Thalassa

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Ahh, vanity search. I see my name popped up!

It's a lot of stuff to address here and I don't really have the energy to do so, but this whole "the emperor wears no clothes" metaphor comes across as disingenuous. To me (I speak for no group) it's implying that Fi holds some kind of truth that no one else recognizes or is so dangerous that it must be suppressed and squelched. Does that not seem over the top and stretching it a bit or is it me?

Yes, I agree in this case in particular it's over the top and stretching it, though I do know what they're getting at. I also found the statement that Fi users were making others feel "threatened" kind of amusing - again, not in this case. I doubt anyone was sincerely threatened over a squabble about the definition of Fi. This kind of melodrama hurts, not helps, the case some individuals are trying to present.

I only put in this info because I've been called an Fi user repeatedly on this site, but I'm really at a loss here. Either Peacebaby is right and I've been using Fe all along, or function theory really isn't working in this case.
 

Southern Kross

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This might explain how the INTJ approach doesn't seem to run into the same crash and burn as the NFP approach.

INTJ: You're wrong. <explains in detail why you're wrong>
non-INTJ: We don't like your attitude.
INTJ: Um, you're still wrong.
non-INTJ: You're so f-cking arrogant and you don't even know it.
INTJ: Uh huh. You're still wrong.
non-INTJ: Well, you might have a point, but you're still arrogant.
INTJ: Well, if by "arrogant" you mean that I always seem to be right, I must agree. :devil:

versus

NFP: There's something wrong here.
non-NFP: What are you complaining about now?
NFP: This isn't right.
non-NFP: It's perfectly fine.
NFP: What do you mean it's perfectly fine? I just explained what was wrong with it.
non-NFP: There you go getting all emotional and sensitive again.
NFP: <now upset> I am NOT getting emotional! And it's unfair of you to change the topic like that!
non-NFP: You're proving my point for me.
NFP: Arrrrgggghhhh!

[The above is not meant to be insulting to INTJs or NFPs or non-INTJs or non-NFPs, but is intended solely as tongue-in-cheek humor to demonstrate a point.]

I believe this is where FineLine has made a very meaningful distinction. It is well and good to point out the emperor has no clothes, but at some point Fi needs to have a bit more of an iron will and not buckle in to intimidation or be distracted by jabs and taunts. Every post that says no more than "Stop being so mean!" ends up saying/meaning/implying/communicating A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MESSAGE THAN YOU INTEND!!!!! The intended message is "the emperor has no clothes" not "you're mean."

The way to get others to "accommodate another communication style ..." is to stick to your main message, ignoring distractions. The communication style to emphasize is pointing out those things that Fi is so good and understanding and pointing out.

The kind of things Fi points out are big. They have to be pretty darn big in the first place to get meek Fi to speak up at all. They're so big in fact, that a lot of people don't want to hear them in the first place. This is why I like the "emperor has no clothes" metaphor: the whole point of the story is that a LOT of people had a vested interest in ignoring that truth. Those people will not simply just say, "Oh darn, the jig is up," and throw in the towel. No, they're going to fight and disagree and say all sorts of mean things.

Those arguing from an Fi perspective say that they're fighting for their integrity, and I believe that is an accurate statement. Note, however, that people saying mean things is no threat to anyone's integrity! It is the denial of the truth that is the threat to integrity. So if you're going to take a stand for truth, fight for the truth. Don't fight for your ego. Don't fight for your bruised feelings. To "defend" against such "attacks" is a disservice to your integrity.

This is one of the hardest Fi-lessons to learn.

Perhaps this is why the Fi-objections get characterized as "whining." The "reason" that is heard for it being wrong is the emotional tone of the objection when the real reason is, "it's wrong."
Thanks for this post. Very interesting points.

You are right about NFPs taking things personally - we naturally tend to internalize what others say about us. My ISTP father is baffled by how I do this. If someone says something abusive or rude to him he shrugs his shoulders and walks away without the slightest affect on his mood. I, however, cannot do so, as much as I have often wished I could. No matter how hard I try I can't depersonalise my interaction with the world and struggle to emotionally distance myself from such situations.

One thing that many NTs seem to not understand, is that NFPs stop listening when NTs use a distasteful or aggressive mode of expression. It doesn't matter how right they are and how reasonable their point is, all of this is drowned out by the unpleasant language and/or tone, and the point is inevitably lost. Instead of properly taking in what they have to say, our backs are immediately up and we go into defense mode. For me, this can result in me either physically removing myself from the situation or simply walling up and refusing to listen any more. Alternatively, in situations where I am particularly stirred up, I will become openly angry and contemptuous, and begin to 'defend my integrity'. It is like having someone scream their point at you; it is rather grating on one's ears and makes it very difficult to restrain from expressing your irritation, let alone take in and relate to what they are saying. It is a complete distraction to me and, in my eyes, repositions the argument/discussion as being about the interpersonal relationship (or lack thereof), rather than the actual matter at hand. Basically, my instincts tell me (however right or wrong this may be) that if someone uses negative, emotive language when critiquing my argument, they have effectively personalised the discussion; they have taken an objective, dispassionate discussion and rendered it subjective and therefore personal. I think you'll find that NFPs are often quite capable of remaining emotionally removed from a situation until others bring negatively-charged language into the fray, thus provoking us to react emotionally. We view such language as a weapon; you shouldn't wave it around haphazardly without expecting us to draw swords too.

So you see, its actually quite difficult for us to ignore the distraction of perceived or actual attacks and focus on the issue itself. I do realise that words may not hold the same weight and significance for others as they do for NFPs, and its difficult to anticipate how each individual may react to the way you express yourself and adjust accordingly. But I do think that caution must be taken when using inflammatory language around anyone, even if you don't naturally respond in the same way to it.
 

CrystalViolet

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I have had so many accusations thrown at me for being a whiny INFP and having fi fueled outbursts, personally directed at me, one gets sick of it. Especially at the times it was not valid. So no...I don't feel safe. If I have a bad day, and let my guard down, surruptiously release a little emotion here, I get personally attacked, every single fucking time.
So yeah, I don't feel safe, I don't even feel I'm a valid member at times. I don't know if anything happens behind the scenes, but yes, I feel personally attacked, and I don't think my feelings are invalid in this arena. I don't know what happens behind the scenes, maybe it's best for me not to know.
BUT this is the reason why I choose to leave.
 

Lady_X

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Thanks for this post. Very interesting points.

You are right about NFPs taking things personally - we naturally tend to internalize what others say about us. My ISTP father is baffled by how I do this. If someone says something abusive or rude to him he shrugs his shoulders and walks away without the slightest affect on his mood. I, however, cannot do so, as much as I have often wished I could. No matter how hard I try I can't depersonalise my interaction with the world and struggle to emotionally distance myself from such situations.

One thing that many NTs seem to not understand, is that NFPs stop listening when NTs use a distasteful or aggressive mode of expression. It doesn't matter how right they are and how reasonable their point is, all of this is drowned out by the unpleasant language and/or tone, and the point is inevitably lost. Instead of properly taking in what they have to say, our backs are immediately up and we go into defense mode. For me, this can result in me either physically removing myself from the situation or simply walling up and refusing to listen any more. Alternatively, in situations where I am particularly stirred up, I will become openly angry and contemptuous, and begin to 'defend my integrity'. It is like having someone scream their point at you; it is rather grating on one's ears and makes it very difficult to restrain from expressing your irritation, let alone take in and relate to what they are saying. It is a complete distraction to me and, in my eyes, repositions the argument/discussion as being about the interpersonal relationship (or lack thereof), rather than the actual matter at hand. Basically, my instincts tell me (however right or wrong this may be) that if someone uses negative, emotive language when critiquing my argument, they have effectively personalised the discussion; they have taken an objective, dispassionate discussion and rendered it subjective and therefore personal. I think you'll find that NFPs are often quite capable of remaining emotionally removed from a situation until others bring negatively-charged language into the fray, thus provoking us to react emotionally. We view such language as a weapon; you shouldn't wave it around haphazardly without expecting us to draw swords too.

So you see, its actually quite difficult for us to ignore the distraction of perceived or actual attacks and focus on the issue itself. I do realise that words may not hold the same weight and significance for others as they do for NFPs, and its difficult to anticipate how each individual may react to the way you express yourself and adjust accordingly. But I do think that caution must be taken when using inflammatory language around anyone, even if you don't naturally respond in the same way to it.

i've said these exact words before too...it's true i can be completely emotionally detached from whatever topic and debate all night with you about it until someones tone becomes hostile...i just can't deal with it and then it turns personal...and it sucks.
 

CzeCze

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This is why I compared the INTJ (NiFi) and NFP (NeFi) approaches, earlier. The hard lesson for Fi to learn is to accept being misunderstood as part of the process of communication. I believe "integrity" (as Fi/Te understands "integrity" in a very specific way) is the path for Fi to follow; that being misunderstood, no matter how painful, is not a violation of integrity. The "signature" of being misunderstood is a different signature than "integrity violation," but to many Fi people, especially those younger and more inexperienced, they have the same signature.

I've never heard it worded like that. I think that's an apt way of saying it. Also that Fi is a process and judging mechanism, it's not a set of values or a conclusion or a message in itself. I also like the point made in the thread about how Ne is constantly feeding into the system and looking for meaning/confirmation/signs in the environment and other people.
 

Adasta

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I think you'll find that NFPs are often quite capable of remaining emotionally removed from a situation until others bring negatively-charged language into the fray, thus provoking us to react emotionally. We view such language as a weapon; you shouldn't wave it around haphazardly without expecting us to draw swords too.

I also find it extremely distasteful when, if I am discussing what I believe, people reply saying something like "I don't know how anybody could believe that!" or "That doesn't make any sense!". I can tell you now that all of my opinions "make sense" - I've given them extensive thought and challenged them from every angle. None of my opinions are glib, and, as soon as anyone in a debate utters anything even comparable to the aforementioned statements, I am on the offensive. I wouldn't say this type of response is restricted to any one type, but I find that non-NFs are the ones most likely to say this, although that is not to say that NFs don't say it either.

The problem is the purported undermining of an intellectual belief because of its supposed relationship to an emotional one. Perhaps non-NFPs are more inclined to see this link and dismiss it. This in itself is a "genetic fallacy"; nevertheless, I think it's one that is often committed around expressions of Fi.

A lot of people seem to have difficulty in comprehending how/why an intellectual belief is/can be founded upon an emotional one. I think that, because NFPs vaolourise emotions while other types do not, there is, then, almost a necessary valourisation of logic via negation (i.e. emotions are rubbish; logic is better) in other types. The fact that these two differing types can (and do) come to the same opinions regarding life/the world/politics etc. seems to become null and void once a dissection of the method by which each type has come to this conclusion is dissected; emotions appear to be an always diluted source.

Facing those that do not store any value in emotion often results in a mutual disconnection. When speaking of emotion, there seems to be an ever-present tendency to conflate emotion with its pejorative aspects by default, thereby making emotion necessarily embody qualities such as moodiness/stubbornness/self-indulgence. This makes is difficult for Fi to operate because it appears that everyone is slinging mud. It causes a feedback loop similar to this:

Code:
No-one understands what I mean --> People think I am being difficult because I am contesting their interpretations --> People are being cruel to me because they think I am being needlessly difficult --> I have to defend myself against this personal onslaught --> Now everyone thinks I'm just complaining for the sake of it --> No-one understands what I mean

I find there are no problems at all when people allow for the fact that reasoned/reasonable decisions can be based on emotional input and that emotional input does not dilute the veracity of the final decision.
 

uumlau

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You are right about NFPs taking things personally - we naturally tend to internalize what others say about us. My ISTP father is baffled by how I do this. If someone says something abusive or rude to him he shrugs his shoulders and walks away without the slightest affect on his mood. I, however, cannot do so, as much as I have often wished I could. No matter how hard I try I can't depersonalise my interaction with the world and struggle to emotionally distance myself from such situations.
Ti, and in particular, Ti + Ni, is quite capable of entering a mental space where words don't hurt. As an Ni-dom, I do the same thing. Very rarely, once in a while, some set of words might hit me in a painfully emotional way, but for whatever reason, I've learned not to hit back: not out of a sense of right and wrong, but rather because as much as I dislike emotional pain, I much more strongly dislike choosing a course of action that I regard as useless, pointless, unproductive.

One thing I've noticed, especially in forum/internet space, is that Ti tends to make playful, pokey jabs. I'd not noticed it before, because a lot of the time the jabs don't even enter my radar, but I've since had a few MBTI-knowledgeable NFP friends point it out. "Ti is mean," they'll say.

No, it isn't that Ti is mean, or that Fi is nice, or anything like that; that's just the impression given. Rather, it pokes and jabs, because Ti is the subjective, internalized judging; Ti types consider it rather rude to express ideas in the Te way, direct and to-the-point. Ti will present ideas in a roundabout way, just as Fi will present its holistic "feeling ideas," and for the same reason.

It's personal to them!

Fi/Te will talk about ideas in a "direct way", such that the ideas are their own entities. The statement isn't "I think that maybe thus and such might be the case," but rather "Thus and such is true!" Notice that the former contains the phrase "I think ...": the implication is that the idea is very much part of oneself. This is a typical Ti approach. Notice that the Te approach has removed the "I think" along with the "maybe" and the "might." The "I think" is removed because it's just an idea, do be discussed and debate as much as any other idea. Often, in the Te perspective, there is a good degree of empiricism and collaborative evaluation, so it isn't just "I think" but rather, "A lot of people have studied this, not just me, and even if it might be refined, this core of the idea is recognizably true." This Te perspective necessarily distances the idea from oneself, so the idea can be safely discussed, without fear of any sort of emotional (Fi) harm should the idea fail in some way.

Ti/Fe does the same thing with "feelings." In the Ti/Fe perspective, it is the feelings/values/customs that are "objectively true" and derive their truth from empiricism and collaborative effort. It is "feelings" that are impersonal, as weird as that might sound. (I suspect that it is this property of being "impersonal" that makes Fi read Fe as less than genuine, when nothing could be further from the truth. The Fe is how one deals with "feelings", it is not how one feels feelings.) So for Ti/Fe, it's one's ideas that are personal, and the feelings that are communal, while for Fi/Te, one's feelings are personal and the ideas are communal.

So, when Ti is "being mean," so to speak, it is speaking tersely and directly, which will often come out as Fe: terse and direct Fe feels mean. Especially for a Ti dom/aux, Fe doesn't develop the skill to soften such blows until much later in life, and even then, old habits die hard. So when Ti hears something that it thinks is stupid or silly or otherwise "unreasonable," it comes out as kind of an Fe admonishment, "Stop being so unreasonable," rather than, "Could you please clarify that for me? I don't understand what you mean."

The trick for Fi to deal with this, especially with Ne, is to learn to recognize the pattern, such that one understands what is really going on: that usually someone criticizing an idea in a "mean way" is just employing a valid manner of expression, in a Ti/Fe sense. Other Ti/Fe types won't take it as "mean," but interpret it in their own context. The "attack" isn't "personal." It just feels that way. It's OK in the Ti/Fe sense to express oneself that way, because talking about your idea in that way is off limits. This is especially the case since usually Fi is expressing some kind of Fi-understanding, which linguistically maps to Fe, so Ti/Fe talks about it in Fe-ish terms, which turns around into feeling like an "attack" Fi-wise, even though it's just simple crosstalk: two people talking about the same thing with very different modes of speech.

Basically, my instincts tell me (however right or wrong this may be) that if someone uses negative, emotive language when critiquing my argument, they have effectively personalised the discussion; they have taken an objective, dispassionate discussion and rendered it subjective and therefore personal.
In other words, when Ti/Fe expresses ideas in Fe mode, it ceases to sound objective or dispassionate to Fi/Te (in Te dispassionate mode), and it is rendered subjective (Fi) and therefore personal.

A good NFP friend put it to me this way: it is best to assume that other people are nice and mean well, and that any harsh words are merely accidental. Yes, this means that once in a while, a real player with bad motives might come along and take advantage of one's kind spirit, but it does a world of good for avoiding the stupid fights that never needed to happen in the first place.

What surprised me when I heard this: I'd been living like that for years, except with a slight twist. I don't assume that they're nice, per se, but I do assume they have their reasons, and most people aren't so stupid as to gratuitously verbally attack others "just to be mean," and those that are that stupid are not worth my time. So I assume it's just a misunderstanding until they prove that they really are that mean/stupid, at which point I don't attack, I ignore.*


I think you'll find that NFPs are often quite capable of remaining emotionally removed from a situation until others bring negatively-charged language into the fray, thus provoking us to react emotionally. We view such language as a weapon; you shouldn't wave it around haphazardly without expecting us to draw swords too.
You kind of hurt your own point, here. "I'm perfectly reasonable until someone else is unreasonable." Yeah, and so is everyone else, each with their own definition of "reasonable."

I am about to play with words, here, but there is a concept that is very much parallel to this: replace "reasonable" with "respectful."

One thing I've often heard, especially from younger folks, is that they'll show respect to someone IF that someone shows them respect.

Can you guess where that leads?

Some misunderstanding is interpreted as disrespect, so one becomes disrespectful in turn, at which point the original person, who intended no disrespect (though may not have been as overtly respectful as the subject demands), is now fully justified by this principle to become disrespectful.

The loop that Adasta describes is the same thing:

No-one understands what I mean
--> People think I am being difficult because I am contesting their interpretations
--> People are being cruel to me because they think I am being needlessly difficult
--> I have to defend myself against this personal onslaught
--> Now everyone thinks I'm just complaining for the sake of it
--> No-one understands what I mean

Therefore ...

In order to be respected, you must be respectful.
In order for people to be reasonable with you, you must be reasonable.
In order for people to make an effort understand you, you must try to understand them.

But not just that ...
When someone is disrespectful, be respectful.
When someone is being unreasonable, be reasonable.
When someone doesn't understand you, maybe it's YOU that doesn't understand THEM.

And in all cases, don't attack. Not even to "defend yourself." Such attacks do not defend your integrity, but rather violate it. If it's wrong for them to attack you, even assuming that they mean it, you commit as great a wrong by attacking in return.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying "don't defend yourself," but answering an attack (real or imagined) with an attack changes the discussion into a fight, and the discussion of the original idea dies. By not attacking, by not entering the fight, you remain able to defend your ideas, refining their expression such that they are better understood. This is how you defend your integrity.

*After all, "ignorance is bliss!"
 

Lady_X

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such an awesome post uumlau!
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
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Excellent post. The last few Fe/Fi exchanges as well as that ENFPs being controlling thread have just sort of reinforced those ideas for me. I guess when I was asking what I should be doing differently, that's what I was getting at. I couldn't see where the alarm bells had gone off, because from the way it looked to me, I had been respectful (in my language), and when I got more blunt, I thought it was very clear as to why I was.

As far as I can see, the main thing we can do is try to understand how the world looks to each other and what types of language are felt as being hurtful even when they aren't intended in that way. In practical communication terms, do you think that rephrasing everything in Fi/Te language would be better for Fe users to do (risking the possibility of a bad translation into a language not their own)? Is just a preamble explaining the thought process better and where the differences lie so that the person has a better chance of receiving the intended message a better route to go?

One of the biggest things I've appreciated about this site is that it is like a sped up version of real life. We all have access to more in depth discussion and other people's interchanges with each other than normally is possible and we also have more occasions where conflict can be pursued in a somewhat controlled manner. Not that I think it is good to intentionally look for fights - if there's anything I've learned in the last few years is that everyone's behaviour does make sense from their perspective - the trick is figuring out what that is and where you view and the other's diverge. That often is not possible until a person is put into a situation where they are not on their native territory. That's when they discover what is the same and what is remarkably different that they had always just assumed was the universal approach to something.

I'm often interested on here to see where an ENFP may make some light-hearted comment in response to what I would take as a snipy or dicey remark myself. They don't register it in the same way because it is not felt as an attack on what is more important to them. I'm seeing now that depending on the Fi/Te or Fe/Ti orientation of the person, the same remark may be meant in an entirely different way and also will be taken much differently depending on who the recipient is. Similarly, I've seen other Fe/Ti users engage in arguments with ENTPs where they don't take the raillery personally, whereas an NFP may. Thanks to all of you who have been willing to engage enough that these differences can be brought to light and inform future interactions.
 
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