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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #301
    violaine
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    Off on a tangent but what about a Fi-user private forum? Not that I'm a big fan of compartmentalizing but I know the NF private forum has been used in part for the purpose of discussing topics the poster is sensitive about.

    Did many of the INFPs frequent INFP GC? I have never been there but I was wondering if there was a different tone to that forum and if so, is that outlet missed?

  2. #302
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Thank you for graciously receiving my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    You're onto something the Fe goal thing. This is indeed what frustrates Fe-ers when people start threads that stir up loads of controversy to deal with, but which ultimately don't change anything. It seems incomprehensible (from a goal oriented standpoint) to start a discussion that in the end doesn't do anything. I would imagine that Te feels the same way about Ti discussions.
    @bold: Likely.

    I like it that you've done some thinking about what may work better than the present situation. I think it is important to see a variety of perspectives on how more people can be accommodated effectively.
    Thanks for that, but please understand though, I wouldn't have felt like I could even presume to formulate those ideas without all the data in this thread to help support it.

    In fact, it feels scary to just make a list like that. The list seems more strident and bossy than just talking about the issues.

    As far as mods though - Cze Cze is an ENFP and Ivy is an INFP. I believe Geoff is also an INFP. Highlander is an INTJ. Geoff is frequently away, but the rest are very active mods. Fi is represented on the modstaff.
    My apologies, I mean no offense to CzeCze or Ivy - I didn't think of CzeCze off the top of my head and had forgotten that Ivy changed/added hers ... I haven't seen Geoff around these parts in quite a stretch and yes, Highlander is new and in there too.

    Maybe just a mod, regardless of type, who loves engaging at that individual level, who is an empathetic emo-rant-specialist then, even someone already on the admin - who do you think that would be?

    I don't know everyone personally well enough to say.

    I'm not sure I'm with you on banning anyone who expresses a lack of understanding for Fi though. I think there is a burden on Fi users to explain what their purpose is and even that they don't have a goal per se in discussing certain things. Notice that it is not Fi across the board that gets attacked. It seems to me that there are Fi users on here who are not necessarily using pseudo Fe speak, they are true to themselves, but they still get heard. Some are even quite open about expressing their wariness of Fe, and yet their words are still accepted. This has a lot to do with the way they approach it. Would you say that this is an issue of Fe imposing a goal on them, rather than them expressing themselves in a more native tongue kind of way? I'm not saying that greater understanding isn't needed on Fe-er's parts too, but banning? Can you give me a more specific example of what kind of behaviour you are referring to? Is it something like we saw evidenced in the Introverted Thinking Guide or more general expressions of dislike for Fi perspectives?
    It wasn't a lack of understanding Fi per se, it's that a particular kind of ad hominem attack is very distressing to Fi-ers. I think I can explain what you see in different Fi-ers though. Some have simply given up trying to talk about this stuff, don't even come to the boards anymore. Some default to Fe, which is a good strategy really, no one gets their feathers ruffled. Some talk about certain subjects but not the sensitive stuff, keep their thoughts to themselves where they won't get trampled on. And some Fi-ers just let it all hang out, which ironically is sometimes more accepted than people like myself who imagine ourselves a diplomat of sorts, trying to get along with everyone.

    As far as reporting posts, this what we've been begging everyone to do all along. Consistently I get the response from Fi users that they aren't snitches and they feel that's underhanded and not their style. Do you see any way of overcoming that sentiment? If we don't know about what's happening, we can't take steps to improve the situation. Right now we are working on the issue of those who are indirectly trolling on a consistent basis, who seem to skate near the line but not cross it. I agree that issue needs to be addressed and I think it may help the situation. In this forum, I see an extraordinarily high level of disclosure in comparison to other forums. To me, that indicates that a lot of people do feel safe expressing themselves, including Fi users. However, it's certainly possible that there's a lot that goes under the radar and if that's the case, then we need to raise awareness so that we can better respond.
    I can't explain exactly why some of us Fi-ers don't report stuff ... for some of the reasons you expressed above no doubt. There's more than that though. I didn't flag my first post 'til well over a year here, and prior to that, I had received some personal attacks that I didn't report.

    Perhaps we kind of expect that people in charge simply notice bad behaviour, especially when it seems obvious to us ... what we don't realize is that bad behaviour looks different to different people. And there are some tactics that are employed here that, as you say, skirt on the edges. One of my least favorite are the people who post 'til they are sure you have seen it (seeing you back in thread) then delete what they said. Extremely provocative and uncool. It's why I've been on "stealth mode" for a while.

    I guess too, on the occasions I have reported a post, I don't receive any feedback that says, "Hey PB we heard that and are on it." I realize this is a lot of extra work to contemplate, but when I do actually report a post, it's something that is extremely offensive to me, no small thing. And then when you hear nothing back, it's hard to know if it's taken seriously. Even some kind of automated reply would be nice to know it actually got to someone, IDK if vBulletin has a hack or setting that enables that.

    At any rate, I do appreciate you thinking about this, but it's a mode of expression that doesn't feel as comfortable to me. I am more used to a consensus style of leadership where everyone is heard as an individual first and I hope that the other people posting here have felt they "said what they needed to say" before I attempted to put together a list and ideas for moving forward.

    Edit: I see you edited your post somewhat after I quoted it. But the gist of it is still reflected here.

    I just want to clarify - Fi-ers aren't necessarily about putting Fi topics in the safe zone, but when we talk about Fi and use Fi language, if people are going to respond to that with insults or personal attacks, on a continual basis, we hope that mod action takes place along the appropriate escalation path, up to and including being banned.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I guess too, on the occasions I have reported a post, I don't receive any feedback that says, "Hey PB we heard that and are on it." I realize this is a lot of extra work to contemplate, but when I do actually report a post, it's something that is extremely offensive to me, no small thing. And then when you hear nothing back, it's hard to know if it's taken seriously. Even some kind of automated reply would be nice to know it actually got to someone, IDK if vBulletin has a hack or setting that enables that.
    Each reported post generates its own thread in a special subforum, it's nearly impossible for a mod to not see it.

  4. #304
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    We've talked in the modbox about the viablility of responding to each of the reported posts, because people such as yourself have expressed a desire to get some feedback.

    Part of the probem is that we get 10-20 reported posts a day often. Some of us just check in and out, some discussions about the problem are ongoing, some reach a conclusion and are dealt with etc. One concern is in addition to the time it would take (and your suggestion of an automated response is good - I don't know if vBulletin does this or not - will check), it often opens up another can of worms as the person who reported it often feels very strongly that a certain course of action needs to be taken. In interests of privacy we don't want to divulge what has happened and many people that a simple "we're taking care of it" is not enough. It is very difficult, as MacGuffin says, to miss any reported posts, so everyone can be assured that their problem is being discussed and dealt with. Sometimes we all agree there is a problem, but do not have an immediate solution based on the present FAQ because we either need more information or we need to make some policy changes (like in the case of the indirect troller). Even within that sort of a situation, there are a lot of subtle differences in that sort of trolling which make it difficult to make one call that works across the board.

    I do appreciate your feedback though and will give it some further thought.

  5. #305
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Re feeling bossy by making that list - this is much like the Te idea molding process. We don't take that list as a final this is how it must be done, but rather something to start from that can then be tweaked here and there or even remodelled to be as practical and accurate as possible while still coming to some kind of action or resolution. I think some of the twitchiness in discussion that you see Fe users display is that they have difficulties in seeing how to translate the views expressed into some kind of practical action that affects the outcome in the end. If Fi users can help them see this aspect of it, they are much more likely to be open to hearing more of what Fi has to say. Does that defeat Fi's purpose for expression though? I'm not sure...

    I'm learning that while I may have some good ideas, Te users want to see how I would envision them being implemented in a less than ideal world. I initially find this difficult to do, but am realizing that if I can help them see how it could work in practical terms, they are much more open to hearing the supporting evidence for my theorizing and in understanding the idea more completely.

    re mods noticing bad behaviour: Keep in mind that not all mods are on the forum every day, or at all times of the day. Some mods may only read 2 or 3 threads in a day or 5 or 6. Some only frequent particular areas of the forum. This is one of the advantages we saw when we got ajblaise on board - he frequented areas of the forum that none of us tended to gravitate towards. Often if you see something blatant that appears to be acceptable to us, it is because no one has reported it! At other times, it is one of those under the radar things that slips through the cracks because it is not strictly against the rules and yet we know there is mal intent. Occasionally there are things which some posters object to that we don't see as being a problem - it is a more individualized issue or value that we don't feel is within our jurisdiction to govern.

    As you know, the modstaff has changed significantly in the last while. We have attempted to make sure there is some balance of type (it was originally pretty INTP heavy before due to the history of how the site started) and perspective, while also trying to ensure that everyone can work well together with enough in common that consensus is possible to be reached.

    Overwhelmingly, I find that the modbox is weighted towards accommodating individual people and situations, taking into account all of the circumstances, rather than imposing rules from the top down. As such, they are reluctant to over-restrict freedom, while trying to maintain the balance of having a respectful environment in which people can say their say. That is sometimes a tough call to make, particularly when there are individuals who feel they are being true to themselves, but act in a way that inadvertantly alienates others.

  6. #306
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Exactly what she said. I actually used to read (nearly) every thread on the forum a long time ago, but the forum is way too big for that now, even if you do have large amounts of free time, which not all of us do. It's even hard for me sometimes to keep up with all the threads I've subscribed to. This makes it more likely that we'll miss a lot of posts, so it's becoming more important to report posts.

    I think it'd be useful for us to start a thread in the feedback section clarifying "report post" function, because I don't think everyone knows what it's for (I didn't until I became a mod).

    For the issue of type-balance in the mods, I think that's a valuable goal although not the most important factor by any means. I would be inclined to use it more as a tie-breaker than anything else, personally. And there is the point that FP/Fi is already much more represented in the mods than SJ or SP, if we're going that route.
    -end of thread-

  7. #307
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Scott. I do respect Fi... but how long do we have to beat the dead horse about Fi? That is the golden question. To be honest, I found you and your posts to be quite intriguing (in a non-creepy way). Every function has problems in society. In some ways, Ne outshines Ni and and in very individualist societies, I think that Fi is secretly valued and Fe is mocked. I have had SO MANY people tell me don't worry about what others think and that's just my nature. It all depends on perspective and context.
    Thanks for your reply Pitseleh. As I remember, you grew up around a number of Fi-users, and already had a certain amount of respect for Fi. Perhaps this forum, and perhaps even myself, have added to your respect for Fi, but since you already had what I understand to be a decent level of understanding and respect for Fi, I don't feel like I can "claim any credit" in terms of convinving you to [more] respect Fi.

    OOh, so I am intriguing, in a non-creepy way, huh? PLease, go on... sidenote: does intriguing generally imply creepy??? If not, why add that caveat in your post???

    PB< can we talk about Fi again now, please? I tried ot bring up some "lets talk about FI" topics in my last post or two. I'll add some more. What would people consider as examples of (I)NFP countries or cities? The book "Where do I belong" points out: Nepal, Bhutan, Burma, and Northern India as examples. Have any of us ever been to any of these countries? Alas, I have not, but would LOVE India. IN fact, I'd love it so much I would have a very hard time wanting to leave. That's part of why I haven't been there.

  8. #308
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    Thanks for your reply Pitseleh. As I remember, you grew up around a number of Fi-users, and already had a certain amount of respect for Fi. Perhaps this forum, and perhaps even myself, have added to your respect for Fi, but since you already had what I understand to be a decent level of understanding and respect for Fi, I don't feel like I can "claim any credit" in terms of convinving you to [more] respect Fi.

    OOh, so I am intriguing, in a non-creepy way, huh? PLease, go on... sidenote: does intriguing generally imply creepy??? If not, why add that caveat in your post???

    PB< can we talk about Fi again now, please? I tried ot bring up some "lets talk about FI" topics in my last post or two. I'll add some more. What would people consider as examples of (I)NFP countries or cities? The book "Where do I belong" points out: Nepal, Bhutan, Burma, and Northern India as examples. Have any of us ever been to any of these countries? Alas, I have not, but would LOVE India. IN fact, I'd love it so much I would have a very hard time wanting to leave. That's part of why I haven't been there.
    I like how you put your own personal touch to your logic.... the way you mainly use your Fi and express it succinctly through Te. You seem to have a way of openly expressing your Fi but at the same time, know how to cater to a general audience. Nah.... intriguing is not necessarily a creepy thing. Some might overanalyze it, get paranoid and perceive it as "omg, that person has a thing for me..." I was just covering my bases. lol

  9. #309
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Bingo!

    And "be understood" is just that. No implication that it's "better": note how the Fi types communicate with each other. They don't argue about who has the best perspective, they share perspectives. Each perspective adds to total understanding. Others are free to accept or reject any given perspective/judgment for oneself, but it is considered rude to just dismiss it without attempting to understand it. One demonstrates one's understanding by saying something like, "Yeah, I remember when something similar happened to me, it was like of like ..." and so on.

    So, the same way I switch into the "maybe" and "I think that perhaps" mode of Ti users, so that they can more easily digest my ideas (rather than asserting them point blank "as the truth" - even though other Te users know I'm not asserting any absolute), it should in theory be possible for Fe users to go into a "Here's a story about how I handled a similar situation," instead of "You really shouldn't behave like that."



    Yeah, it's Fe that is trying to figure out what the "best perspective" is. Fe is sharing perspectives, too, but it is more blunt and open to negotiation. Fe is about a "shared understanding." Fi is about "sharing individual perspectives."

    A particular tendency is that Fi speaks in terms of "I" so as to clarify that "this is just me, and may not apply to you." Fe speaks in terms of "you" to clarify that one is expressing interest and concern for the other person.

    We are all human, and we all try to understand the human condition. Fi reaches understanding from the inside out. Fe reaches understanding from the outside, in.
    Very insightful observations. I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    As far as reporting posts, this what we've been begging everyone to do all along! Consistently I get the response from Fi users that they aren't snitches and they feel that's underhanded and not their style. Do you see any way of overcoming that sentiment? If we don't know about what's happening, we can't take steps to improve the situation. Right now we are working on the issue of those who are indirectly trolling on a consistent basis, who seem to skate near the line but not cross it. I agree that issue needs to be addressed and I think it may help the situation. In this forum, I see an extraordinarily high level of disclosure in comparison to other forums. To me, that indicates that a lot of people do feel safe expressing themselves, including Fi users. However, it's certainly possible that there's a lot that goes under the radar and if that's the case, then we need to raise awareness so that we can better respond.
    Yeah, this is hard for me and I could easily imagine that many other Fi-doms feel the same way. The best reasons I can think of as to why this is:

    - Fi is about harmony - we don't like to rock the boat. Also we have it in our heads that we can deal with the issue ourselves either by turning the situation around or controlling our reactions to it (eg. ignoring it).
    - we are aware of our subjective view of the world and are cautious about inflicting consequences on others because of it. I have gone for the report button several times only to back down. I don't want anyone to be unfairly banned because I got a bit huffy in the moment. My Te tells me that these are messy situations and frankly no hate speech was used nor any laws or clear cut rules broken, so I leave it be.
    - we are reluctant to engage with a depersonalised system/authority to deal with problems in basic human interaction. This may sound stupid, but I cling to the idea that people should be self-monitoring of their behaviour or at least back down when others call them out. I don't want them to be punished, I just want them to cut the crap. Sadly, punishment appears to be the only language some people understand.
    - I don't know about the others here, but I've had a lifetime of dealing with crappy behaviour toward me. I've come to kinda accept that this happens no matter what I do. In other words, I've been conditioned to endure it, even if it makes me miserable.

    Possible solutions:
    - I need this stuff to be spelled out Te style guidelines; too much uncertainty can be paralyzing. Fi users are very subjective thinkers and want to know when something is objectively considered inappropriate behaviour according to the rules. My rules are not the same as the forum rules; I find it hard to know when someone has genuinely crossed the line and when its considered that I'm just being "whiny".
    - I am extremely reluctant to report if I think something will directly result in a ban (unless it is something clear cut like hate speech). If I knew they would be simply warned and that only a certain number of warnings would result in a ban, I would feel better about it. I'm uncertain as to what sort of feedback you get when you report something and I'm uneasy about what would happen.

    Its likely some of this already exist in the rules but frankly I'm too lazy to read and analyze them. But basically, if I'm uncertain about whether something has crossed the line, I'm going to err on the side of caution.
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #310
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    When you report a post, you are just basically alerting mods by saying, "Hey, here's something that might be worth checking out". Sometimes you can even ask a question along with it if youu feel unsure. Reported posts are always looked at, but do not automatically mean that we do something terrible to the person being reported.

    If we notice a person has been on a bit of a spree lately, we may investigate as to what is going on in their life or if something happened with another forum member. Sometimes it is added to a file of information about someone who is one of our frequent fliers so that if something else comes up too, we have a whole "paper trail" of sorts to point to or more to inform our decision making. Sometimes it is something like seeing that someone appears to be suicidal. We had some reported posts of people who obviously are suffering from a serious mental illness like schitzophrenia. Members who don't understand are likely to make fun of their posts, or think they are joking and raise their level of paranoia further. In those cases, we try to move the most obvious posts quickly and address the issue so that when they are back on their medication etc no bridges have been burned for them. I had one case like this where a poster followed me from thread to thread when I was a new member with paranoid accusations like "I don't know what it is that you want but it's not going to work"etc. I didn't realize there was a way to report it back then. Sometimes it's helpful for us to know when a thread is heating up so we can diffuse the situation, PM a person privately with some information they may not have, or in extreme cases that we temporarily thread ban someone extremely troublesome and aggressive until they cool off to avoid them incurring worse consequences. There are a lot of different reasons for using the report post function and not every time does it involve action. Sometimes it's as simple as saying "Thought you guy might want to know about this" or "What do you think of this?" If you ask a direct question, we'll get back to you. Otherwise, we'll take it under advisement and decide accordingly.

    Hopefully that clears some things up. I certainly didn't even know you could report posts until I became a mod and several other new mods have expressed similar feelings!

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