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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Much like this. To paraphrase, it's like saying. "Well, no matter how you explain it, I am still going to act the way I act and believe what I believe, so if you want to improve your communication with me you are just going to have to adapt to me."

    And I do accept the need to adapt in order to get one's message across - I was hoping on the forum we could get to 50 - 50 more. Do you feel like you are already trying to meet in the middle?
    Yes. To put it bluntly, the disproportionate share of the burden falls on the Fi-user. It's not that Fi is to be ignored, as you said to FineLine, but that better translation is needed. Otherwise this subject becomes a broken record, repeating ad nauseam.

    I'm going to swipe a quote from another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So, lets make a grid out of this: "Looks at <objective/subjective> things <objectively/subjectively>." And assign the grid to each of the judging functions.

    Fi; "Looks at subjective things subjectively"
    Ti: "Looks at objective things subjectively"
    Fe: "Looks at subjective things objectively"
    Te: "Looks at objective things objectively"
    Which is the easiest function to understand? Which is the hardest? Te annoys me at times, but there is little mistaking the message. Fi, on the other hand, is the opposite. Very hard to understand. Not only is it subjective, but it's concern is the ethical rather than the logical. It can make brillant sense to the Fi-user, and even to someone in a one-on-one discussion, but in a larger sense it quickly become noise and the message is lost.

  2. #272
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    That made me laugh. Sure, I would like to move forward here. But that requires concession in two directions. Since I am willing to phrase things in the Fe friendly way - most of my forum life has been oriented this way already, and certainly my real life - but I am simply asking Fe users to count to 10, take a breath if they see Fi that gives them a knee-jerk emo reaction, and take the Fi approach to greet it. Just ask a question or two instead of instant condemnation.
    This bit surprised me. I wonder if you could elaborate? In my view, I've seen this occurring already in many Fe users - you are actually seeing a vastly-sanitized version of the original thought in most cases. On the other hand, it's not so obvious to me that Fi users are "counting to 10" before reacting - maybe I am indeed seeing a sanitized version there as well, but it isn't as clear to me as it is with the Fe users. This seems to contradict the 50-50 message. What do you think?

    edit: perhaps it is that the "sanitized" version of Fe users still tends more towards Ti/Fe values than to Fi, and so it feels more attacking?
    -end of thread-

  3. #273
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    This bit surprised me. I wonder if you could elaborate? In my view, I've seen this occurring already in many Fe users - you are actually seeing a vastly-sanitized version of the original thought in most cases. On the other hand, it's not so obvious to me that Fi users are "counting to 10" before reacting - maybe I am indeed seeing a sanitized version there as well, but it isn't as clear to me as it is with the Fe users. This seems to contradict the 50-50 message. What do you think?

    edit: perhaps it is that the "sanitized" version of Fe users still tends more towards Ti/Fe values than to Fi, and so it feels more attacking?
    Heehee, this is a good point. I laughed out loud when I read Tilty's earlier posts because they were such a relief in this thread, Fe-wise. That looks a lot more like the unfiltered version of Fe. There's a good bit of filtering going on already, as you say. But I am not sure phrases like, "Can you expand on that feeling a little bit for me?" will ever feel comfortable coming from the ends of my fingertips. Perhaps I can come up with an alternate way of approaching Fi-ers that still gets the job done, though.
    Something Witty

  4. #274
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    This bit surprised me. I wonder if you could elaborate? In my view, I've seen this occurring already in many Fe users - you are actually seeing a vastly-sanitized version of the original thought in most cases. On the other hand, it's not so obvious to me that Fi users are "counting to 10" before reacting - maybe I am indeed seeing a sanitized version there as well, but it isn't as clear to me as it is with the Fe users. This seems to contradict the 50-50 message. What do you think?

    edit: perhaps it is that the "sanitized" version of Fe users still tends more towards Ti/Fe values than to Fi, and so it feels more attacking?
    I see sanitization on both sides of the fence; can feel some underlying irritation and tension from the Fe side, can feel some frustration from the Fi side. There's evidence of both Fi and Fe "counting to 10" in this thread.

    No one has really let any Fi fly here so far. It's all pretty controlled considering there are strong emotions under the surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Heehee, this is a good point. I laughed out loud when I read Tilty's earlier posts because they were such a relief in this thread, Fe-wise. That looks a lot more like the unfiltered version of Fe. There's a good bit of filtering going on already, as you say. But I am not sure phrases like, "Can you expand on that feeling a little bit for me?" will ever feel comfortable coming from the ends of my fingertips. Perhaps I can come up with an alternate way of approaching Fi-ers that still gets the job done, though.
    And I am proud that no one thus far has taken that Fe bait proffered earlier in thread ...

    It's not so different than Ti liking to be asked questions, Tallulah. Just translate to Fi.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #275
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, I meant on the forum in general - this thread is very restrained on both sides for the most part, as requested.
    -end of thread-

  6. #276
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Yes. To put it bluntly, the disproportionate share of the burden falls on the Fi-user. It's not that Fi is to be ignored, as you said to FineLine, but that better translation is needed. Otherwise this subject becomes a broken record, repeating ad nauseam.

    I'm going to swipe a quote from another thread:

    Which is the easiest function to understand? Which is the hardest? Te annoys me at times, but there is little mistaking the message. Fi, on the other hand, is the opposite. Very hard to understand. Not only is it subjective, but it's concern is the ethical rather than the logical. It can make brillant sense to the Fi-user, and even to someone in a one-on-one discussion, but in a larger sense it quickly become noise and the message is lost.
    Fair enough. We can be hard to understand. I'm more than willing to make an effort to make myself more easily understood. I only do this all day long as it is due to the seemingly relative rarity of Fi dom/aux in the world. Perhaps we have become a little relaxed with this because we assumed that this being a MBTI site that others would be able to make sense of us.

    It will always require an effort though and we're not always going to know when we've inadvertently slipped into our obscure Fi-language because this is where our instincts lead us. When this happens, non-Fi-users have to be prepared to uphold the other end of the deal. You have to either ignore it or tell us you don't understand and ask us to restate it differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    This bit surprised me. I wonder if you could elaborate? In my view, I've seen this occurring already in many Fe users - you are actually seeing a vastly-sanitized version of the original thought in most cases. On the other hand, it's not so obvious to me that Fi users are "counting to 10" before reacting - maybe I am indeed seeing a sanitized version there as well, but it isn't as clear to me as it is with the Fe users. This seems to contradict the 50-50 message. What do you think?

    edit: perhaps it is that the "sanitized" version of Fe users still tends more towards Ti/Fe values than to Fi, and so it feels more attacking?
    I wrote two longish posts yesterday but ended up deleting them instead

    With Fe its a little more apparent when someone is holding back, Fi isn't as much. INFPs in particular spend most of their time withholding everything other than a controlled/edited expression of surface emotions, and as a result others view their demeanour as being reflective of their inner state. Its for this reason that IXFPs appear to explode with intense rage out of nowhere over something seemingly insignificant - they've been holding back so much they eventually just snap.

    We're nowhere near as nice and innocuous as we seem

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Heehee, this is a good point. I laughed out loud when I read Tilty's earlier posts because they were such a relief in this thread, Fe-wise. That looks a lot more like the unfiltered version of Fe. There's a good bit of filtering going on already, as you say. But I am not sure phrases like, "Can you expand on that feeling a little bit for me?" will ever feel comfortable coming from the ends of my fingertips. Perhaps I can come up with an alternate way of approaching Fi-ers that still gets the job done, though.
    Hell, "what exactly do you mean?" is enough.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #277
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    My ESTJ hubs said it best, but I won't be able to perfectly replicate his common sense short answer to this. He said, "PB, if I didn't think I was right, I wouldn't have anything to say. Of course I think I am right, that my opinion is the best one. That doesn't mean it is, and I am open to having it corrected, having it challenged. And when I am wrong, I update my opinion."
    This is accurate.

    I think it's more a property of the introverted perceiving functions. We evaluate and evaluate until we're sure. THEN we say something. Ne especially (I'm not so sure about Se) seems to just "say things" before the thought process has begun. More to the point, Ne seems to go hand-in-hand with "stream of consciousness" style of speaking. It gets hidden if others disapprove, but Ne would prefer to share the half-formed ideas and questions. Ni and Si prefer to evaluate for oneself, and THEN express the idea.

    So, how does one challenge the authority of each extroverted function?
    Just say what you think, and don't back down just because Te or Fe is loud or rude or obnoxious. Think of it like a cross-cultural thing, e.g., New York vs Southern US. In New York, if you don't adopt the more assertive conversational style, it's difficult to get in a word edgewise. In the US South, it's more common to be extra polite, e.g., wait for people to stop speaking before speaking oneself.


    When you challenge Te, you offer it concrete data (and extrapolations from the data) to show why your opinion is right and that the course of action you recommend is the "right" one. If it's logical, makes sense, has an economy of time, expense etc., Te will back it and you move forward with action.
    Note the bolded. Ti is more concerned about a self-consistent logical framework. Te is more concerned about logistics, about whether it is a practical and workable solution that achieves a result. You'll understand why I emphasize this here, when I explain Fe below.

    When you challenge Fe, what is the best approach? In this thread, I am trying to use Fe tools such as consensus to show that not only do I feel a certain way from time to time here when posting, others do too. Although not a majority voice, Fi does share commonality with other Fi users, and seeing these "feelings", this data, out in the open is an effort to make an Fe appeal. Even Fi users who said they felt fine talking in an Fi way on the forum knew that they would likely have to tolerate a certain level of recrimination and condescension in return.
    It's not merely about consensus. It's about being able to achieve people-oriented goals. E.g., you want to sell a product, influence a vote, change a company policy, accomplish some task that requires persuading other people to agree with you. There's a bit of give and take, of course, but Fe keeps an overall goal in mind and gives up those things not relevant to the goal.

    It is completely analogous to Te, in this regard. It's about people-logistics, as opposed to material logistics.

    So, what are the answers to help Fi have a voice at the table? If an Fi appeal fails to reach Fe due to the supposed "whiny" nature of Fi, and a Te approach only serves to offend Fe and back it into a corner, and an Fe strategy fails because it still doesn't make enough of an impression on Fe to take it seriously, what will work? What else is required?
    Understand that Fe is about a purpose and the Fi purpose is quite different. Te and Fe offend each other due to different core motives, but very often the motives are similar. Obvious motives/goals are aligned, e.g., making more money in a business. It's the more obscure material efficiencies and people-considerations that cause conflict.

    Right now I am feeling somewhat resigned towards thinking that this whole exercise may be pointless; that all of these threads might be. Even though insights appear to take place in each thread, the bottom line remains that when some Fe users hear Fi, they default to the interpretations and conclusions above.

    To convince someone to try to think of an alternate interpretation seems a hard row to hoe ... it's no easy task.

    No different here than anywhere else.
    Yes, just as Ni has a great difficulty expressing itself. Fi is rather immaterial, and Ne really doesn't help to nail down any sort of material objectivity. I suspect that Se, being very materially oriented, makes that expression of Fi a bit easier to understand for all parties.

    Much like this. To paraphrase, it's like saying. "Well, no matter how you explain it, I am still going to act the way I act and believe what I believe, so if you want to improve your communication with me you are just going to have to adapt to me."

    And I do accept the need to adapt in order to get one's message across - I was hoping on the forum we could get to 50 - 50 more. Do you feel like you are already trying to meet in the middle?
    When one is speaking, one always has the responsibility to adapt to the listener.

    However, when one is listening, one always has the responsibility to adapt to the speaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Yes. To put it bluntly, the disproportionate share of the burden falls on the Fi-user. It's not that Fi is to be ignored, as you said to FineLine, but that better translation is needed. Otherwise this subject becomes a broken record, repeating ad nauseam.

    I'm going to swipe a quote from another thread:



    Which is the easiest function to understand? Which is the hardest? Te annoys me at times, but there is little mistaking the message. Fi, on the other hand, is the opposite. Very hard to understand. Not only is it subjective, but it's concern is the ethical rather than the logical. It can make brillant sense to the Fi-user, and even to someone in a one-on-one discussion, but in a larger sense it quickly become noise and the message is lost.
    Heheheheh. Yep. Same thing with Ni.

    However, I wouldn't say "ethical" vs "logical", which is a bit narrow. Rather, "holistic" vs "analytical". Analysis isn't necessarily logical. A holistic approach can arrive at eminently logical results.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    However, I wouldn't say "ethical" vs "logical", which is a bit narrow. Rather, "holistic" vs "analytical". Analysis isn't necessarily logical. A holistic approach can arrive at eminently logical results.
    I was using the socionics words (which I hate) because "thinker" and "feeler" are horrible. Both are supposed to be rational processes. Most people think feeler = emotions, which is not entirely true.

  9. #279
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think it's more a property of the introverted perceiving functions. We evaluate and evaluate until we're sure. THEN we say something. Ne especially (I'm not so sure about Se) seems to just "say things" before the thought process has begun. More to the point, Ne seems to go hand-in-hand with "stream of consciousness" style of speaking. It gets hidden if others disapprove, but Ne would prefer to share the half-formed ideas and questions. Ni and Si prefer to evaluate for oneself, and THEN express the idea.
    You can throw Ni out there and I'm doing it a lot these days but to many people it will come across as gibberish and if they aren't N(T)Js themselves more than likely you won't get a response. It's especially difficult with INTPs because they will attack it as if it's a flawed argument, but it was never meant to be attacked as something it's not. Whenever I don't edit myself with Te and throw my really immaterial hunches out there (so I haven't judged these things) amongst INTPs it leaves me feeling vulnerable and raw because I feel like they don't just roll with the process (which is like ping-poing-pang...ideas rushing in, connections being made...ooh, what about this?). But you get better at involving Ni (arguably with the help of Fi and Se) in your life in a more accessible way - you just might not come across as assured and always-right and such. And yes, INTP (males), you can come across as *very* dismissive.

    The (Fi) question is of course whether people *should* (ethics) make the effort to get a better grasp of even the most "mysterious" functions and meet others halfway. I think they should (out of respect for the other and for the sake of fairness, the right for everyone to be heard, so communication can be more fulfilling) and I would also argue that the conceptual switching essentially requires the same effort for all functions.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post

    I wrote two longish posts yesterday but ended up deleting them instead

    With Fe its a little more apparent when someone is holding back, Fi isn't as much. INFPs in particular spend most of their time withholding everything other than a controlled/edited expression of surface emotions, and as a result others view their demeanour as being reflective of their inner state. Its for this reason that IXFPs appear to explode with intense rage out of nowhere over something seemingly insignificant - they've been holding back so much they eventually just snap.

    We're nowhere near as nice and innocuous as we seem


    Hell, "what exactly do you mean?" is enough.
    I find both to be rather transparent to be frank. I can usually pick up when Fi doms are pissed/ annoyed/ out of the ordinary... you just have to be attuned to what to look for. To be honest, I have never found Fi to be all that mysterious much like the other functions. It's highly personalized so you have to get to know the person on very personal level to know some of their core values/

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