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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I will defer very emotionally charged discussion with my ENFP love to wait until we are communicating face-to-face. Then it becomes clear how and why I mean my words, and how and why she means hers.
    You're smart. I think the key to any strongly Feeling NF communicating well with an INTJ probably would better be done in person. Otherwise we appear to be so melodramatic that the INTJ gets frightened by the idea of all those words and feelings flying at them. :sad:

  2. #262
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    I haven't been following this thread; I will probably continue not to follow it. (C'mon--260 long, convoluted posts--who's going to read all this crap?) I'm just raising an issue for your consideration. If it has been discussed, then ignore me and carry on.

    Issue:

    In trying to get a grasp on why Fi is so difficult to grasp, have you non-Fi-users factored in "Ne-ing," otherwise known as waves of verbal diarrhea that ensue when Ne-Auxes are dealing with an issue where they don't really want to be pinned down? In other contexts, it is known as "jawboning an issue to death."

    The subject of Fi is not that complex. For instance, in my back-and-forth with PeaceBaby early in this thread, I can tell you exactly what I was feeling as I was reading each of her posts, which of her sentences rang alarm bells for me ("feeling tones"?), and what I intended to convey back to her with each and every sentence that I wrote (the "emotional subtext" that I was trying to convey). IOW, this stuff isn't brain surgery. It's just a question of turning off the Ne and being honest about what you felt/meant when you heard/said a given thing.

    So where does the verbal diarrhea come in? It's when an Ne-Aux wants to jawbone something because they're agitated about it, but then they dig in their heels and refuse to let the issue be moved to a conclusion or even a clear definition of the problem because suddenly they sense a bunch of people looking over their shoulder and telling them, "Well it's simple--you just need to do X, Y, and Z!"

    This isn't just an INFP problem. INTPs do it just as bad or worse. When I was posting on INTP-Central for a while, it used to drive me nuts. Some INTP would write and say, "My love life is on the rocks; my girlfriend and I are arguing about issue A; should I dump her?". I respond, "Well, in most cases, those sorts of issues boil down to the choice of X or Y. It's really pretty simple. Either you two come to an understanding of X and Y and work it out, or you don't and you split up." And then the interminable Ne-ing starts: Suddenly the INTP has a million reasons why he can't be pinned down on X and Y--you argue it forever with him, and eventually it boils down to some freakish "logical" rule that they suddenly insist is the bedrock of their world philosophy and can't be violated even by themselves. Or they start playing devil's advocate with their own position and saying, "Well, maybe it's really not about issue A; if I was my girlfriend, I would probably see it as issue B or even issue C." And after you chase them around through all the possible variations of the problem (issues A through M), you find that you've given them 15 pieces of conflicting advice and you're no nearer solving the problem than before.

    Or sometimes INTPs just engage in stressed-out Fe and bark at you to shut up--you're either too stupid to understand them, or your yammering is constipating them and causing their superior brain to shut down. They need silence so that they can process the issue on their own.

    You might call it "Ti Gone Wild." Or maybe just "INTP Brain Damage." It used to drive me nuts over at INTP-Central. The emotional/life problems of INTPs were usually so simple, but of course the solutions never were allowed to be simple too. Conversely, it was so nice to run into the occasional mature INTP who responded, "Oh, that's how it's usually handled? Oh shit, that's easy--I can do that! Thanks for the helpful advice!"

    Anyway, I'm beating up on INTPs first just so it's understood that this isn't just an INFP problem. But certainly INFPs do it too. Sometimes it's via a lot of whimsicality and politeness and sensible dialog, but you can't pin them down on a single point. They'll tell you that you're always not quite grasping the very special nuance that they're trying to relay to you. Or another variation: Sometimes they're on a rampage, all stressed-out Te and wailing about how you're victimizing them, but in the meantime they're nitpicking a million small points and never actually confronting the main issues. When you try to push the main issue in front of them, they insist that you're just victimizing them again and that you have no right to put words in their mouth or force-feed them definitions and issues before they've had time to work these things out at their own pace. And so you end up with lots of threads of many hundreds of posts, and no one is one bit closer to actually defining Fi or how people are supposed to handle it.

    What's all this Ne verbal diarrhea about? It's about control. It's about claiming the territory and freezing things in place so nothing moves. It's about, "I'm not going to let you define me or force solutions on me until I'm good and ready. And that's going to be exactly never."

    So what do you do when an INFP (or INTP) takes this position? You shrug your shoulders and move on. Or you stock up on supplies, fortify your position, and prepare for a long siege. Hey, no one's perfect. Everyone has their faults. Other people are drunks or have anger issues or whatever. INxPs get stuck on issues and start inundating you with nonsensical verbal diarrhea. You realize it's not worth the fight and you work around it.

    It means that you never are going to get a clear definition of Fi. We tried over at INFP-GC. Even when a few of us were ready to be honest and really cut to the chase, we would be overwhelmed by Ne-ing fellow INFP posters who declared that our definitions didn't apply to them because we were always just one nuance away from the real issue. And in any case we had no business prescribing solutions or even defining the problem because Fi-users are so victimiiiiiiized by the woooorld; and if we even implied that Fi was partly to blame, then we were just blaming the victim and we were therefore part of the problem (and clearly we weren't real INFPs, anyway).

    Anyway, I don't mean to sound bitter. It's all just pop psychology anyway. No one's sanity is hanging by these definitions; it's all just vanity--do I think my type is pretty or strong or happy or whatever. The populations at these various message boards are young, which means there is going to be a lot of immature pride and foot-dragging whenever the issue comes up. So in the end, Fi never really gets defined. Or in fact it gets defined quite frequently, but then a long line of INFPs shows up to tell you you've got it all wrong and cry "we're so victimiiiiiiized by the woooorld."

    So you just argue things down to something that's pretty much taken for granted, and then you say, "I feel like this issue should be taken for granted, so I'm not going to argue it anymore." And you leave them to mull the issue on their own. Maybe they'll get it someday. But there's no pushing them before they're ready. You can lead a horse to water...

    In sum: I don't expect this post to get a real positive response. But before you close your mind, just remember, I'm an INFP married to an INFP. I know whereof I speak.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I haven't been following this thread; I will probably continue not to follow it. (C'mon--260 long, convoluted posts--who's going to read all this crap?) I'm just raising an issue for your consideration. If it has been discussed, then ignore me and carry on.

    Issue:

    In trying to get a grasp on why Fi is so difficult to grasp, have you non-Fi-users factored in "Ne-ing," otherwise known as waves of verbal diarrhea that ensue when Ne-Auxes are dealing with an issue where they don't really want to be pinned down? In other contexts, it is known as "jawboning an issue to death."

    The subject of Fi is not that complex. For instance, in my back-and-forth with PeaceBaby early in this thread, I can tell you exactly what I was feeling as I was reading each of her posts, which of her sentences rang alarm bells for me ("feeling tones"?), and what I intended to convey back to her with each and every sentence that I wrote (the "emotional subtext" that I was trying to convey). IOW, this stuff isn't brain surgery. It's just a question of turning off the Ne and being honest about what you felt/meant when you heard/said a given thing.

    So where does the verbal diarrhea come in? It's when an Ne-Aux wants to jawbone something because they're agitated about it, but then they dig in their heels and refuse to let the issue be moved to a conclusion or even a clear definition of the problem because suddenly they sense a bunch of people looking over their shoulder and telling them, "Well it's simple--you just need to do X, Y, and Z!"

    This isn't just an INFP problem. INTPs do it just as bad or worse. When I was posting on INTP-Central for a while, it used to drive me nuts. Some INTP would write and say, "My love life is on the rocks; my girlfriend and I are arguing about issue A; should I dump her?". I respond, "Well, in most cases, those sorts of issues boil down to the choice of X or Y. It's really pretty simple. Either you two come to an understanding of X and Y and work it out, or you don't and you split up." And then the interminable Ne-ing starts: Suddenly the INTP has a million reasons why he can't be pinned down on X and Y--you argue it forever with him, and eventually it boils down to some freakish "logical" rule that they suddenly insist is the bedrock of their world philosophy and can't be violated even by themselves. Or they start playing devil's advocate with their own position and saying, "Well, maybe it's really not about issue A; if I was my girlfriend, I would probably see it as issue B or even issue C." And after you chase them around through all the possible variations of the problem (issues A through M), you find that you've given them 15 pieces of conflicting advice and you're no nearer solving the problem than before.

    Or sometimes INTPs just engage in stressed-out Fe and bark at you to shut up--you're either too stupid to understand them, or your yammering is constipating them and causing their superior brain to shut down. They need silence so that they can process the issue on their own.

    You might call it "Ti Gone Wild." Or maybe just "INTP Brain Damage." It used to drive me nuts over at INTP-Central. The emotional/life problems of INTPs were usually so simple, but of course the solutions never were allowed to be simple too. Conversely, it was so nice to run into the occasional mature INTP who responded, "Oh, that's how it's usually handled? Oh shit, that's easy--I can do that! Thanks for the helpful advice!"

    Anyway, I'm beating up on INTPs first just so it's understood that this isn't just an INFP problem. But certainly INFPs do it too. Sometimes it's via a lot of whimsicality and politeness and sensible dialog, but you can't pin them down on a single point. They'll tell you that you're always not quite grasping the very special nuance that they're trying to relay to you. Or another variation: Sometimes they're on a rampage, all stressed-out Te and wailing about how you're victimizing them, but in the meantime they're nitpicking a million small points and never actually confronting the main issues. When you try to push the main issue in front of them, they insist that you're just victimizing them again and that you have no right to put words in their mouth or force-feed them definitions and issues before they've had time to work these things out at their own pace. And so you end up with lots of threads of many hundreds of posts, and no one is one bit closer to actually defining Fi or how people are supposed to handle it.

    What's all this Ne verbal diarrhea about? It's about control. It's about claiming the territory and freezing things in place so nothing moves. It's about, "I'm not going to let you define me or force solutions on me until I'm good and ready. And that's going to be exactly never."

    So what do you do when an INFP (or INTP) takes this position? You shrug your shoulders and move on. Or you stock up on supplies, fortify your position, and prepare for a long siege. Hey, no one's perfect. Everyone has their faults. Other people are drunks or have anger issues or whatever. INxPs get stuck on issues and start inundating you with nonsensical verbal diarrhea. You realize it's not worth the fight and you work around it.

    It means that you never are going to get a clear definition of Fi. We tried over at INFP-GC. Even when a few of us were ready to be honest and really cut to the chase, we would be overwhelmed by Ne-ing fellow INFP posters who declared that our definitions didn't apply to them because we were always just one nuance away from the real issue. And in any case we had no business prescribing solutions or even defining the problem because Fi-users are so victimiiiiiiized by the woooorld; and if we even implied that Fi was partly to blame, then we were just blaming the victim and we were therefore part of the problem (and clearly we weren't real INFPs, anyway).

    Anyway, I don't mean to sound bitter. It's all just pop psychology anyway. No one's sanity is hanging by these definitions; it's all just vanity--do I think my type is pretty or strong or happy or whatever. The populations at these various message boards are young, which means there is going to be a lot of immature pride and foot-dragging whenever the issue comes up. So in the end, Fi never really gets defined. Or in fact it gets defined quite frequently, but then a long line of INFPs shows up to tell you you've got it all wrong and cry "we're so victimiiiiiiized by the woooorld."

    So you just argue things down to something that's pretty much taken for granted, and then you say, "I feel like this issue should be taken for granted, so I'm not going to argue it anymore." And you leave them to mull the issue on their own. Maybe they'll get it someday. But there's no pushing them before they're ready. You can lead a horse to water...

    In sum: I don't expect this post to get a real positive response. But before you close your mind, just remember, I'm an INFP married to an INFP. I know whereof I speak.
    hahahahahaha, I can totally relate. My INFP mother is exactly like this. If she gets completely offended about something, she will analyze why the other person was a jerk to smithereens and when you try to explain that relationships are a two way street, she simply respoinds "I didn't do anything wrong".

  4. #264
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    fineline...i don't even think i know you but i like you much that shit is hilariously awesome...i know exactly what you mean with the ti and fi being ne'd all to hell and it's not even a bad thing...just one of those funny lil quirks that all types have in their own ways...but your post was great...
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #265
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    Good thoughts, FineLine!
    Something Witty

  6. #266
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    fineline -- lol! nice description. Ne is a royal pain in the ass sometimes... nothing can ever be simple. though on the bright side - nothing can ever be simple!

    tallulah -- i really appreciate your insight to INTPs. my dad and brother are INTPs and it helps me understand them a lot better.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    If they would be willing to check first, Fe users could be their eyes for them in the darkness of the group situation and show them a path where they could accomplish the same thing safely. I would be willing to acknowledge that on a more individual level, Fi users see a myriad of elements that we don't as readily and I need Fi users to be my eyes there.
    i think part of the problem here is that sometimes we don't really want the safe way. it feels too much like selling out. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What if I told you that at the moment I get a "feeling tone", a sense that something is right or wrong, that leads me to initially investigate and dig deeper, there is no emotion attached to it at all. It's a feeling yes, it gets my attention, makes me attentive, wary even - it feels like an internal awakening, an alertness. [...] Then, just like IRL, people come swooping in assigning motivations and intentions to my "feeling tone" that don't exist. A "feeling tone" is just data - it doesn't tell me anything until I analyze it with the other functions. It just tells me something is amiss.
    yes. or even, i can read emotion, but it's not my emotion. yet.

    --

    standard generalizations for the sake of understanding trends:

    i've been noticing lately... that just like Fi tends to "import" things... Fe tends to "export" them... i've seen IRL how the Fe doms i know can tend to assign personal problems/opinions/insights to others. this is sometimes a source of tension. they see personal problems mainly in application to outside beings when sometimes the solution lies inside - and it means the problem gets exterpolated to somewhere it never existed in the first place. Fe turns one person's problem into others' problem - which, on one hand, can be supportive, but on the other, places additional guilt on the individual when they never asked for anyone else to bear the burden of their problem with them. it can feel like a whole lot of people blaming me for something i neither asked for nor took part in.

    relatedly, i see fidelia's points about not wanting to disturb others with potentially-emotionally-tinged statements. on the other hand, i never asked anyone else to take on my burdens - only to consider the issues alongside me. after all, it is not my personal responsibility to maintain others' boundaries. (is this why Fe users tend to want/need distance? Fe makes boundaries hard?) i also see why Fi does come off as consequence-blind - though on the other hand, Fe users can fail to address important issues in a timely manner (or at all) for trying to take the safe route. sometimes the only immediate way to get yourself heard is to throw caution to the wind.

    plus, the paradox -- if it's not the group's responsibility to take care of me as an individual, it's not my responsibility as an individual to take care of the group.

    more and more i am learning how for every offense, pain, insecurity i feel, the person on the other side of whatever imaginary boundary line we have erected experiences the same.

  7. #267
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    In general, I don't think things will ever be as clear-cut as we would like them to be. I have seen many Fe users w/ an insane individuality streak (rock the boat, being rebellious) and many Fi users that are very group-oriented (imposing their values on others... the group). It once again, most likely comes down to motivations. The tricky part is that it is hard to decipher people's real motives... it's a lot of guesswork. There are just way too many human variables to accurately assess psychological phenomenon (even though this is just pop psychology) many times.

  8. #268
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    I like Fineline's post above. I want to point out that he was in the military before, and I grew up around it. So, both of us have plenty of Te influence in us, including understanding when Te gets to trump Fi ["A weapon is coming at you NOW. MOVE!!!!!"]

    I would attempt to describe what Fi is in the following terms: the set of an individuals personal values, values that are viewed as universal and transcend any particular culture or point of origin. "I don't need society to tell me what pain is, I feel pain. Because I have felt pain, I recognize when others feel pain [more advanced people could recognize pain, or other feelings, even without having personally experienced them]. Pain sucks. When I see other people in pain, I will do what I can to alleviate or remove their pain. [A higher extension here would be from going from "people" to "other living creatures"]. I don't give a shit that society says it is improper for me, as a well to do person, to go and talk to and try to help out that destitute person over there. Said destitute person is in pain, I can help, therefore I will help. period." Notice the presence of 1) a personal value: reducing pain, 2) that this value is universal/not-culture-specific: "all people can experience pain, not just middle class white americans, 3) that this value leads to doing something: helping the destitute person, and 4) this value will say fuck you to society's general collective values if it feels like it should do so: "this person is a person, we are all the same inside, it doesn't matter that I make more money than them."

    I would like to *attempt* to help define/explain Fi, both by talking about what it is, and contrasting some with what is it not.

    Here is 1 description of Fe, from Henry Thompson's "Jung's Function Attitudes Explained", pg 90: "The Fe lives in society, a world of interpersonal interactions governed by organized patterns of relationships that are supposed to be characterized by polite, courteous, and considerate behaviors. These common traditions have global rules for "appropriate" behavior during collective activities... The Fe is the gatekeeper for societal norms-rightness and wrongness-by which human societies are supposed to live."

    And now some form another Thompson [Lenore] pg 335 of Personality Type: "Because EFJ's learn to use their dominant function by anticipating the effects of their decisions on others, they may not be comfortable with internal states that can't be harmonized with the values of the group to which they belong. Asked how they "feel" about something, EFJ's react uneasily, as thought the question were designed to elicit a negative response and create disharmony....They're concerned about the meaningtheir behaviors have for others. They feel guilty about expressing needs and impressions that would cast doubt on their values and commitments... indeed, EFJ's will deny negative thoughts or opinions for the sake of social harmony, particularly if the category or relationship warrants the strategy. Such denial strikes them as the better part of valor. Thinking types, with their penchant for impersonal accuracy, regard the whole business of tailoring truth to the category of relationship as dishonest-and more than a little irrational.""

    Pg366:" {Fi} focuses our attention differently. It encourages a personal relationship to an evolving pattern, a will to gauge the situation by an experiential ideal." pg 367: "Moral choices prompted by {Fi} are not derived from legal principles or the social obligations that accrue to our roles in the world. They're derived from the subjective experience of being human, our will to deal with a situation in terms of human ideals. Decisions made on this basis are frequently misunderstood as a product of emotion or a deliberate rejection of structural authority." "{Fi} bypasses structural considerations and puts human value first. Such discrimination is unquestionably illogical, but it's in no way irrational. Indeed, to place human value above statistical risk isn't possible without the ability to reason."

    continuing: "Some of our values, after all, are shaped by a specific context, and they're irrelevant when circumstances change. Others are quintessentially human and, as such, unconditional. Unconditional values can't be erased from the human psyche, no matter what kind of social system is in place. To express them is to see through the divisions external discriminations reinforce." "As suggested {Fi} is not a substitute for extraverted judgement. It won't solve the analytic problems that logic and causal reasoning are designed to address, and it won't establish a basis for predictable social interactions. But, conversely, it addresses aspects of human reality that Extraverted reasoning can not." "It should not be supposed, in this regard, that {Fi} is opposed to {Fe}. Both involve the "right" ordering of our relationships and loyalties." "{Fi} relies on the inward right-brain criteria of experience and empathy to mark off decisions that go beyond our roles in society to affect us as human beings. Law and custom, afterall, are the lowest common denominator of a defined community. We associate character and humane behavior with the moral imperatives shaped by inner values."

    "IFP's... are drawn to, more than any other type, to medical and religious occupations, and particularly to organizations like the Peace Corps, Doctors without Borders, and Habitat for Humanity, which allow them to take humane action transcending conventional Extraverted conceptual and social boundaries."

    "It should be emphasized, however, that ENFJ's are {Fe} types, who act as social advocates. They help people to realize their potential in a way that society will ultimately accept. INFP's are advocates of the inner world, the values that connect us to other living beings in a fundamental way. They go where they feel needed, helping to nurture these values or to support people who have fallen through the cracks of a prevailing social system."

    About Fi dom's: "They recognize by way of their own experience an unconditional value that links them with humanity as a whole." "They are holding with ideals that are larger, and more stable, than a universe of chance and possibility can contain..." "Value, for these types, is a fateful claim from within that align's one's behaviors with a larger purpose, notwithstanding perceived circumstance or social obligation. This is what makes {Fi}'s behavior seem irrational to an outside observer. They can't be causally deduced from the objective situation." ".. the human values that {Fi} brings to awareness are just that_introverted. They don't offer a basis for an objective social system. If anything, they offer a basis for disattachment from social conditioning. This is what gives them the ability to change hearts. The only kind of world in which {Fi} could possibly obtain as a primary source of social judegement is a chaotic, unpredictable one in which systems designed to protect the community have no power to do so."

    pages 381 and 382 give an example of Mother Teresa using Fi ["elevating subjective values over extraverted social expectations"] and also talks about some of the dangers of Fi in terms of social structure and rejecting/not-having-in-the-first-place such structure.

    "They know that unconditional values are truly unconditional, so they have no reason to make predictions about how an experience will meet or not meet thir needs." "[While not always seen as heroic]...the cumulative effects of thier actions accomplish an extraordinary things."
    "Well -developed IFP's are at home in themselves, in harmony with life, and they teach largely by example. They don't have to preach; their values are expressed in the dispatch of ordinary life choices. INdeed, they're the most compassionate of the types, recognizing that even the most wretched of lives can be changes by hope and an appeal to dignity and human worth."


    "Although feeling always determines a form of idealism, the values determined by {Fi} are different from the {Fe} sort. {Fe} presides over social values-current ideas about how relationships in the community are best conducted. {Fi} determines subjective values-convictions about how a life is best lived. Such experiences are trained by a direct experience of good and bad behaviors, and they are claim us from within. But relationship gradually teaches us that some of them transcend our individual circumstances, linking us irrevocably with other human beings." "IN general, however, well-developed INFP's live lives that don't look much different from anyone else's. What's different is their perspective. They strike others as unassuming, even deferential, because they treat people with unconditional love and compassion. In consequence, their actions, their choices, their way of life can awaken other to human values the community has not acknowledged."

    "Such actions see through external distinctions of role, background, and status to focus on our common human links. INFP's sometimes underestimate their strengths because there are so many problems in this world that can't be solved by changing people's hearts. But they shouldn't. The effects of their decisions are often incalculable, renewing people's faith in human nature."




    There, an uber-long list of quotations giving descriptions and explanations of both Fi and Fe. Discussing the value of both, and the importance or necessity of both. Both are important, both have uses. Fighting with each other, or attacking the other "because you don't do things my way!!!" is ultimately stupid and futile and anti-constructive.


    The above strongly indicates 1) the socially/collectively-agreed upon nature of Fe 2) the individual nature of Fi, 3) the transcendence/universalness, or at least potential for, of Fi, 3) that Fe and Fi aren't [or at least shouldn't be] mutually antagonistic, 4) that both Fe and Fi have value that they bring to the table.

    I think I have argued personally for most or all of the above before. Fidelia, I especially want you to read these deeply and take them to heart [or at least think about it], since oyu have asked many questions in the past that these help describe or explain.

    Do I feel "afraid" or uncomfortable tro talk about Fi on this forum? No, I don't. Though I also avoid most of the "please describe Fi to non-Fi-ers" since they seem to start well-intentioned enough, then get seriously derailed by [what I see as] 1) "Fe says your not Fe enough, quit being so selfish and follow our rules and understandings!" or 2) T "your stupid and irrational, now go jump off a cliff you dumb irrational flakes". Do I feel liek its worth spending time on threads like this? Like Fineline, probably not. I just spent over an hour finding and quoting all this stuff, like none of which isn't stuff I haven't already said before in paraphrased form. Can I get this hour of my life back, please??? I have stuff to do that doesn't involve trying to justify Fi to Fe's or T's, and besides I'll get enough Fi "quit being irrational and self-centered and delusional and idealistic and flighty and get rational and assertive" hostility tomorrow at work anyways...

    Fineline, I wanna join you here, and quit posting on this topic. Unless something especially worthwhile and insightful pops up to comment on. Though even then it will probably only be to say something that I've already said on this forum numerous times before...

    PB: if I can add something meaningful to describing or explaining Fi, especially from one Fi user to another, please let me know. Otherwise I'm probably going to bow out. Its not my job to make non-Fi'ers accept Fi anymore than it is to make non-Buddhists accept Buddhism.

  9. #269
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    aaaaahhhh!!! my brain is exploding! how i wish you people were in this room to talk about this stuff with me...it's all very interesting and i have much to say but...i hate to type as is probably evident.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #270
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    Executive Summary:

    In a forum about personality type, it is illogical that one mode of communication be favored over another. Since Te and Fe both start from a default position of feeling definitively "correct" to the user, each typically needs to be convinced otherwise when they come to incorrect, premature, incomplete or preconceived judgement, albeit in different frames for each function.

    My ESTJ hubs said it best, but I won't be able to perfectly replicate his common sense short answer to this. He said, "PB, if I didn't think I was right, I wouldn't have anything to say. Of course I think I am right, that my opinion is the best one. That doesn't mean it is, and I am open to having it corrected, having it challenged. And when I am wrong, I update my opinion."

    So, how does one challenge the authority of each extroverted function?

    When you challenge Te, you offer it concrete data (and extrapolations from the data) to show why your opinion is right and that the course of action you recommend is the "right" one. If it's logical, makes sense, has an economy of time, expense etc., Te will back it and you move forward with action.

    When you challenge Fe, what is the best approach? In this thread, I am trying to use Fe tools such as consensus to show that not only do I feel a certain way from time to time here when posting, others do too. Although not a majority voice, Fi does share commonality with other Fi users, and seeing these "feelings", this data, out in the open is an effort to make an Fe appeal. Even Fi users who said they felt fine talking in an Fi way on the forum knew that they would likely have to tolerate a certain level of recrimination and condescension in return.

    So, what are the answers to help Fi have a voice at the table? If an Fi appeal fails to reach Fe due to the supposed "whiny" nature of Fi, and a Te approach only serves to offend Fe and back it into a corner, and an Fe strategy fails because it still doesn't make enough of an impression on Fe to take it seriously, what will work? What else is required?

    -----

    Some thoughts on more posts; thanks to all for the continued input.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    ... I freely admit that my first perception of Fi often is that it is complaining. As such, it sometimes feels as if Fi users are requesting

    1) Everyone to adapt to them (even though they are one person and the rest of the group are many who would all have to rearrange themselves to accommodate)

    2) They are not subject to the same constrictions we all experience in a group (all of us have issues we feel strongly about ...

    3) They see themselves as being much more perceptive and unique than other people

    4) They want understanding without trying to present the material in such a way that is palatable and taken seriously by their audience

    5) They play the victim.

    6) They are just unaware and thoughtless.

    I do understand that from a Fi perspective, all of these accusations are grossly unfair and inaccurate. I certainly don't feel that reaction to all Fi users, but expressed in an immature form, Fi can grate.

    I don't know if that's an emotion or not, PB, but it's what comes to mind when looking at the underlying issues that make us react as we do to Fi.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Self-pity and indignation.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think this is one of the reasons why Fe users tend to see Fi users expression of their feeling tones as complaints. It implies to them (from their projection) that
    1) Change is being requested
    2) The fault lies within someone outside the person making the complaint.

    When we are not given more information to help explain the reasoning for expressing concern, it feels like someone who is immaturely just trying to shift responsibility from themselves and in the process make a lot of other people change just to accommodate them.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah, I wouldn't normally express what I did if PB hadn't specifically asked for it. If we want to get to the bottom of this, I think the only way is to understand each other's thought processes and what led them to the conclusion they have made.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Therefore, when Ne thinking out loud, combines with Fi expressing their feeling tones, it seems to me that they have not bothered to

    1) Think the whole issue through - thus bringing up stuff that may not be such a big deal later and that has no suggestion of a solution accompanying it.
    2) Taken responsibility for their own action
    3) Considered the various outcomes for reacting in different ways
    4) Are willing to deal with the fallout from taking a stand

    Again, I do not mean this in a disrespectful way to anyone. Hope that helps flesh it out a bit though.
    Putting all of these posts together and trying to formulate a reply feels like walking uphill in sand. I do appreciate the contributions fidelia, and your willingness to put these thoughts into words.

    Right now I am feeling somewhat resigned towards thinking that this whole exercise may be pointless; that all of these threads might be. Even though insights appear to take place in each thread, the bottom line remains that when some Fe users hear Fi, they default to the interpretations and conclusions above.

    To convince someone to try to think of an alternate interpretation seems a hard row to hoe ... it's no easy task.

    No different here than anywhere else.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I guess that relates to what I was saying earlier, Fi-users aren't very good at communicating to a non-Fi audience. Because we don't trust (I've seen you talk about how we should trust Fi-users at first) that anything constructive will result once "complaining" commences. I think (not speaking for anyone else here, this is just a theory) that the non-Fi-users try to shut this down because they see it as counter-productive to the discussion of the ideas in a forum thread.

    My problem isn't in the underlying emotion (I don't even care about it), but in the expression, the result, that occurs. The signal-to-noise ratio is out of whack.
    Much like this. To paraphrase, it's like saying. "Well, no matter how you explain it, I am still going to act the way I act and believe what I believe, so if you want to improve your communication with me you are just going to have to adapt to me."

    And I do accept the need to adapt in order to get one's message across - I was hoping on the forum we could get to 50 - 50 more. Do you feel like you are already trying to meet in the middle?

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Fe users are very results oriented. In the couple of threads that usually end up being in Feedback or Graveyard or something where Wonka or SS or someone have expressed their indignation or upset at a decision being made, Fe mods do have a tendancy to try to shut it down quickly, which is often perceived as trying stifle truth or individual expression.
    What's quite ironic is that I could see solutions to these threads quite handily ... they could have been defused very quickly. Maybe you need an Fi dom as a mod who speaks Fi in these kinds of situations. (Not plugging myself for the job AT ALL.)

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    That exercise with Mac felt like you were leading the witness to make your point that people assign emotions to Fi.
    I was.

    No one is preventing Fi-ers from sharing feeling tones. But it just seems unrealistic to call off all responses that aren't validating.
    It doesn't bother me if people agree or disagree with my POV, I care if people belittle me in the process of agreeing or disagreeing with me. You can say "PB, I don't see what's causing the warning bells in this thread" np there ... what hurts is when people say "Pffft, whiny emo Fi, here we go again :rolli:." Do you see the difference?

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Similarly, Fe also doesn't see feelings and emotions as the essence of who they are. Therefore like Te with Ti users, they can't understand what the huge worry is about waiting until it is safe and the conditions are just right before expressing what they feel or value.
    Do you find it difficult to extract the corollary from this? Use it as a tool to approach Fi users?

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I haven't been following this thread; I will probably continue not to follow it. (C'mon--260 long, convoluted posts--who's going to read all this crap?) I'm just raising an issue for your consideration. If it has been discussed, then ignore me and carry on.
    tl;dr

    Just messin' with ya. I do appreciate you being here, although I am not sure why you are posting, since you're not following the thread. I can only assume it irks you that it's still active.

    The subject of Fi is not that complex. For instance, in my back-and-forth with PeaceBaby early in this thread, I can tell you exactly what I was feeling as I was reading each of her posts, which of her sentences rang alarm bells for me ("feeling tones"?), and what I intended to convey back to her with each and every sentence that I wrote (the "emotional subtext" that I was trying to convey). IOW, this stuff isn't brain surgery. It's just a question of turning off the Ne and being honest about what you felt/meant when you heard/said a given thing.
    Don't you find though that most people don't want the Fi truth? It doesn't come out very smooth or pretty. Plus, I can agree it's not brain surgery, but non Fi types seem to really struggle with it. You are positing that we (Fi users) should just default to use other tools / functions in our dealings with people. But that leaves Fi feeling neglected. How do you reconcile that?

    So where does the verbal diarrhea come in? It's when an Ne-Aux wants to jawbone something because they're agitated about it, but then they dig in their heels and refuse to let the issue be moved to a conclusion or even a clear definition of the problem because suddenly they sense a bunch of people looking over their shoulder and telling them, "Well it's simple--you just need to do X, Y, and Z!"
    Well, here, I see a clear solution, and it's the one I use in my offline life. It's succinct and effective. On the forum, it seemed plausible though to think that Fi might be more welcome. Apparently it's not. If it takes a few threads to really appreciate that reality, what issue is that to you? Why do you seem contentious to the exploration?

    When you try to push the main issue in front of them, they insist that you're just victimizing them again and that you have no right to put words in their mouth or force-feed them definitions and issues before they've had time to work these things out at their own pace. And so you end up with lots of threads of many hundreds of posts, and no one is one bit closer to actually defining Fi or how people are supposed to handle it.
    We're not talking about defining Fi anymore, but I am curious what you see as the issue in this thread? What is the main issue? How to handle Fi? Most people are saying that out loud already, but you haven't read the thread to see that. Would a list be helpful?

    What's all this Ne verbal diarrhea about? It's about control. It's about claiming the territory and freezing things in place so nothing moves. It's about, "I'm not going to let you define me or force solutions on me until I'm good and ready. And that's going to be exactly never."
    That made me laugh. Sure, I would like to move forward here. But that requires concession in two directions. Since I am willing to phrase things in the Fe friendly way - most of my forum life has been oriented this way already, and certainly my real life - but I am simply asking Fe users to count to 10, take a breath if they see Fi that gives them a knee-jerk emo reaction, and take the Fi approach to greet it. Just ask a question or two instead of instant condemnation.

    50 - 50.

    Do you think the 50 - 50 approach is too much to expect?

    So what do you do when an INFP (or INTP) takes this position? You shrug your shoulders and move on. Or you stock up on supplies, fortify your position, and prepare for a long siege. Hey, no one's perfect. Everyone has their faults. Other people are drunks or have anger issues or whatever. INxPs get stuck on issues and start inundating you with nonsensical verbal diarrhea. You realize it's not worth the fight and you work around it.
    If I may paraphrase, you are saying that we obfuscate the real issue and dance around it without really saying what we mean in order to get it fixed? True we don't want to hurt feelings, nor get bopped on the head for saying them, so what tools do you think work best, aside from looking like you are extremely sympathetic to the Fe POV?

    Anyway, I don't mean to sound bitter. It's all just pop psychology anyway. No one's sanity is hanging by these definitions; it's all just vanity--do I think my type is pretty or strong or happy or whatever. The populations at these various message boards are young, which means there is going to be a lot of immature pride and foot-dragging whenever the issue comes up. So in the end, Fi never really gets defined. Or in fact it gets defined quite frequently, but then a long line of INFPs shows up to tell you you've got it all wrong and cry "we're so victimiiiiiiized by the woooorld."
    You do sound bitter, and one wonders why you continue to frequent the boards considering that frustration. I suppose you are on your own tangent too, your own Fi crusade, to help try to empower INFP's so they stop feeling sorry for themselves and get out into a world of action. That's cool.

    There are definitions of Fi that most people seem to agree upon already. Maybe it would be interesting to have a thread posting those. I don't think consensus is impossible. I mean, if you can agree you are an INFP, that's already 75% of the way there. Maybe that is enough.

    In sum: I don't expect this post to get a real positive response. But before you close your mind, just remember, I'm an INFP married to an INFP. I know whereof I speak.
    Well, I am an INFP married to an ESTJ. I know whereof I speak too. We are each other's respective shadows, and in that, we help each other grow a great deal.

    Despite your long Ne style post, I see / feel a lot of Te in you, but suffused with ... well, I won't Fi you here in thread. Suffice it to say I find you aggravating but interesting. Hope that doesn't offend you.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    plus, the paradox -- if it's not the group's responsibility to take care of me as an individual, it's not my responsibility as an individual to take care of the group.
    Well said.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    Its not my job to make non-Fi'ers accept Fi anymore than it is to make non-Buddhists accept Buddhism.
    Your whole post is appreciated Scott. I hear what you are saying above, and it's very wise, maybe the wisest thing in the whole thread but I just wonder ... I know you feel stressed and aggravated by not being understood, don't you want to try to help bridge the gap too? Don't you think that greater appreciation and understanding could lead to more contentment for you?

    -----

    And with that, do share your thoughts. I am taking a day off of the forum, as the demands of this thread are putting me out of balance in the real world. Will be back to read any extra thoughts that could help provide solutions to where we find ourselves.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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