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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #251
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    OK, that's very good, certainly if one feels indignant it could lead to an expression that comes out as a complaint. Excellent.

    What if I told you that at the moment I get a "feeling tone", a sense that something is right or wrong, that leads me to initially investigate and dig deeper, there is no emotion attached to it at all. It's a feeling yes, it gets my attention, makes me attentive, wary even - it feels like an internal awakening, an alertness.

    Then, after exploring the "feeling tone" can come emotions, yes. Emotions will come for sure when someone reacts to the "feeling tone" with dismissal, "What are you talking about? Everything is fine, why are you complaining?" At that point, indeed I may very well feel indignant, because what is a very neutral beginning is suffused with someone else's assumption of the inner state I must have possessed in order to say what I said.

    It becomes a chain reaction, so generally Fi guards the initial expression of the inner "feeling tone", knowing it could be misinterpreted & misconstrued.

    SO, now, take us to the forum. Here we are. A place where I can interact with other Fi-ers and let my "feeling tone" get expressed out loud, as it were. Then, just like IRL, people come swooping in assigning motivations and intentions to my "feeling tone" that don't exist. A "feeling tone" is just data - it doesn't tell me anything until I analyze it with the other functions. It just tells me something is amiss.

    What uumlau posted above is correct: the "safe place" I speak of is a place where other types at least have a little patience with Fi as we take that first "feeling tone" we generally guard so closely to the outer world. Ask a question if you like, so we can pick it apart, help us with your Ti to dig deep. But please, stop assigning it erroneous emotions, emotional intentions or motivations - because that IS what makes Fi users frustrated and annoyed. That's all I hope for. :
    )
    But you're the one that asked him--nay, pushed him-- to assign it an emotion or an intention. He was just telling you what it came across as--which was the pretty generic "complaining." He didn't really care, as he stated, what emotion might have been driving the complaining. The whole point he was making was that a real point Fi might bring up can be obscured by the external static of complaining. I think this is an important distinction. That exercise with Mac felt like you were leading the witness to make your point that people assign emotions to Fi.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It's a ridiculous proposition, anyway, the idea that you should feel "safe" to discuss anything. If making you feel safe is the condition of the discussion ... why is that my job? Now hear this: you're not safe. These are possible dangers: I may argue. I might get annoyed and show it. I may prove you wrong. Possibly I'll answer your questions more pointedly than you might have liked. And vice versa. There is no "safe" here. Also anything you say can and will be held against you, because all typing on the internet is forever. What kind of "safe" is everybody supposed to provide? Don't feel safe. Keep your wits about you and carry on.
    This is what we don't really understand. No one is preventing Fi-ers from sharing feeling tones. But it just seems unrealistic to call off all responses that aren't validating. Though I guess this is where Fi's idealism comes into play? This isn't real life, so we Should be able to create an idyllic place where there's no opposition, and everyone agrees to create a place to nurture Fi? I think I get that, but it might require an Fi subforum. Most of the time, Fe isn't trying to invalidate Fi on purpose. It's just reacting, and trying to understand, and filtering out what it deems unnecessary or irrelevant. So this safe place thing is a pretty foreign concept to us, especially on a forum, where ideas are even more focused on than in real life sometimes.
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  2. #252
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    What's 'feeling tone' vs 'feeling'?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  3. #253
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Wow really? I actually don't understand any of this perception that Fi users are complainers. I don't perceive it that way at all. I just perceive that they have a certain view or reaction and that it's theirs and theirs alone. However, I do have the sense sometimes that I need to walk a little bit on eggshells around Fi doms/auxes though because I'm afraid I'll hurt their feelings. It's not that I always do a great job of it though.
    I'm glad you said that because I was starting to wonder if I was the only one. I don't notice Fi-doms complaining or even being more sensitive than anyone else. I see vicious cycles that start where someone (any type) is perceived as being offended or over sensitive, and someone reacts by becoming offended by their being offended, etc. It might start with a Fi person, or they might be the one who reacts, or maybe no Fi's involved. It happens a lot on different forums, including those with few Fi people. I see people get highly reactive to "emotional tones" and my impression is that they also seem pretty sensitive, but just specifically to "emotional tones". In either case it's okay and just people being people, but sometimes I wonder at the mirroring, projecting, and cyclic nature of all of this that we ascribe to distinct categories. I find it confusing and do not see these distinctions, even though I've tried because so many people are certain of them.

    As for walking on eggshells, I could probably name five reasons needed to do it for any type. There are lots of different ways to be highly reactive.
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    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  4. #254
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I only find these Fi issues pop up when I am communicating in writing, and even then, not with all Fi users. In real life, our communication tends to be much simpler.

  5. #255
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Whenever someone is overreacting, being fighty, emotional, irrational, closed minded, etc. there is always the option to not respond. This doesn't refer only to Fi or Fe. A person doesn't have to fix it. Just let it alone and it will probably go away or at least not escalate - it works like a charm. The repercussions are not usually too bad if it is just nipped in the bud or laid to rest. The derailments come when it is focused upon, responded to, and continually fed, and then what a mess.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  6. #256
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ Yes, I am making a distinction between the first "feeling tone" and then any resultant emotions, although they can be practically coincident ... I see them as two separate things, but I didn't for a long time. My feelings are strong too, when I am feeling emotion, and I feel a lot of emotion about a lot of things. But if I really unwind an emotion, there will be a "feeling tone", a truthiness of sorts, behind it that helps me learn about myself.

    Other Fi-ers - chip in on that.
    I don't know that I can separate it out in exactly the same way. Almost everything has some combination of emotions associated with it... people, projects, physical objects... almost everything. Those kind of represent the built up emotional and aesthetic evaluations over time. Those emotional associations are multi-layered, and are what I think the phrase "feeling tone" represents. So, my car might have multiple associations: a twinge of guilt because I'm not perfect about maintenance, a kind of solid affection towards it for being reliable, some aesthetic reactions about its design... all add up to a kind of emotional signature that represent my current car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    Even an "indifferent" sensation possesses a feeling-tone, namely that of indifference, which again expresses some sort of valuation. Hence feeling is a kind of judgment, differing from intellectual judgment in that its aim is not to establish conceptual relations but to set up a subjective criterion of acceptance or rejection. Valuation by feeling extends to every content of consciousness, of whatever kind it may be. When the intensity of feeling increases, it turns into an affect, i.e., a feeling state accompanied by marked physical innervations. Feeling is distinguished from affect by the fact that it produces no perceptible physical innervations, i.e., neither more nor less than an ordinary thinking process.
    Personally, when I'm presented with something that seems off (just as an example—but it could also feel valuable, or like there's more there beneath the surface, or whatever), there may indeed be an emotion that intrudes into consciousness. So, that's still emotion (if a somewhat detached kind), but it's separate from emotional investment. It's a kind of evaluation, but not one I'm necessarily consciously invested in. It's not a demand, so much as a perception.

    So, it's possible that I might subjectively feel hurt or indignant by something, but that doesn't mean I'm personally invested in feeling that way (nor is it my overall mood). Still, it's a clue to investigate what's triggering that emotional response, because emotions always have a cause. Now, I suspect Fi-ers focus more attention on the emotional state, and so sometimes communicate minor emotional responses and nuances that wouldn't even be a ping on another's radar.

    Because that's the case, maybe other types assign the same intensity and investment in an emotion that they would need to feel compelled to express it.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In the xkcd strip I quoted, the first character sounds like he's complaining, and yes, this could be the first step towards a gloom and doom nihilism. The second character clearly sees it as such, and advocates a positive attitude. The second person's answer is legitimate: for many people, it is a simple straightforward matter to cultivate a positive attitude, a stiff upper lip, to just set one's emotions aside, and deal with whatever comes in that light.

    Not so for Fi, and I really like this strip because of how the first character resolves it: "Screw this, my attitude isn't my problem." That is so Fi. The problem, as Fi sees it, isn't how to cultivate a particular attitude or distance oneself from one's negative emotions, but rather to understand it. "I'm going to be glum and depressed and pessimistic some days, and I'm going to get better anyway."
    Exactly! This insight is great. And, we really can't just ignore our emotional state because it is a vital part of how we perceive things. So, emotions have to be dealt with and not spackled over (well, that's how the alternative looks from our perspective).

    (BTW, it's hard to adequately express how at odds "fake it 'til you make it" is to how I approach things.)

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Fe tends to (please forgive, for lack of a better phrase and splitting the infinitive here) try "working around" that emotional noise to "get things done," which actually helps "resolve" the emotional noise. Fi tends to try understand the emotional noise, which is why it can sound like complaining, because often the statements are about the emotional noise. For Fi, understanding the noise is what "resolves" it, while to Fe, that doesn't seem like a resolution at all.
    Very true... except I'd say the emotions are rarely just "noise" for Fi, even if that's how are they perceived by others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This is what we don't really understand. No one is preventing Fi-ers from sharing feeling tones. But it just seems unrealistic to call off all responses that aren't validating.
    Just as you get irritated by the "noise" of the emotional expression, we get sidetracked by processing your expressions of irritation. I don't think people are expecting universal agreement, just to be given enough space to pursue a process without undue disturbance. Maybe the way there is better framing of what's going on. Maybe things like, "Okay, something feels off here... I'm not upset, but when I read X, I get a sense of Y... is that just me?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Though I guess this is where Fi's idealism comes into play? This isn't real life, so we Should be able to create an idyllic place where there's no opposition, and everyone agrees to create a place to nurture Fi? I think I get that, but it might require an Fi subforum. Most of the time, Fe isn't trying to invalidate Fi on purpose. It's just reacting, and trying to understand, and filtering out what it deems unnecessary or irrelevant. So this safe place thing is a pretty foreign concept to us, especially on a forum, where ideas are even more focused on than in real life sometimes.
    I agree that NFPs are idealistic, and there is an underlying assumption that "if we understand each other well enough, global harmony will ensue and group hugs will abound." Still, I think most of us are more realistic than that.

    What one hopes would happen is for there to be more tolerance on both sides for differing processes. So, the question becomes one of "how can we adjust things on both sides to avoid unnecessary conflict." Of course our default positions on each side are "you can stop whining/disrupting/feeling sorry for yourself" and "you can stop being so mean/irritable/head-stompy".

    So, I find the suggestion of framing things to be helpful. I'm sure we're not going to be able to remember to do it 100% of the time, but that's suggestion is very helpful. For me, I'd also like the irritated posts to at least include some information on the cause. Sometimes, the irritation appears to come out of nowhere (from my perspective) and not give any information except for irritation and negative judgment. That gives me nothing to work with except for upset. So, I think explaining what's obvious to you (but might be opaque to me) is also helpful in some cases... especially if it can be managed without sounding condescending.


    (I also agree with some posters who note that reactivity seems independent of type to a large degree. Still, the kind of things that trigger irritation do seem to be somewhat type related to me.)

  7. #257
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    What's 'feeling tone' vs 'feeling'?
    This is where feeling tone becomes important:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I only find these Fi issues pop up when I am communicating in writing, and even then, not with all Fi users. In real life, our communication tends to be much simpler.
    In writing, the feeling tone is lost. One is left with the literal meanings of words. Unless one is a poet, or very precise with one's language, it can be impossible for others to gauge what one "really means" when one "complains." Is it a complaint? Is it a request for feedback? Is it just venting frustration?

    The words are left without emotional context, and one is left to provide one's own, at which point, one asks, "What would *I* have meant if I had said that? Oh, I'd be whining. Therefore this person is whining."

    This happens even when sharing judging functions: as I mentioned in a prior post in this thread, I will defer very emotionally charged discussion with my ENFP love to wait until we are communicating face-to-face. Then it becomes clear how and why I mean my words, and how and why she means hers.

    PB is being even more precise than this, by the way. She is saying, if I might be so bold as to interpret for her, that the very topic of the Fi "complaints" is the "feeling tones," and is an investigation of the emotional tone, its meaning, and its implications, and NOT a discussion of one's "mood" or "feeling."

  8. #258
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I agree that the noise of another's reaction can be very distracting. I think this is what I find hard about dealing with Te. Before I've even expressed a thought, Te starts challenging it and then I get all worried about presenting it in exactly the right way so that it will be taken seriously and so that I will not be written off.

    I've just realized now that Te users don't look at ideas as such a personal entity, and therefore it would be better to talk with more abandon and get more of the meat out, rather than struggle with describing it in such a perfect way. I'm thinking maybe Fi is the same way. In an attempt to be accurate and self-protective, it tends to not get the meat of the information out so that Fe has a better chance at understanding it effectively. Similarly, Fe also doesn't see feelings and emotions as the essence of who they are. Therefore like Te with Ti users, they can't understand what the huge worry is about waiting until it is safe and the conditions are just right before expressing what they feel or value.

  9. #259
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I agree that the noise of another's reaction can be very distracting. I think this is what I find hard about dealing with Te. Before I've even expressed a thought, Te starts challenging it and then
    What? What do you mean?

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  10. #260
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Haha! It just became clear to me that it would either be the ruin of me or the making of me to get together with ENTJ! We are opposite in almost every respect!

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