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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    OK, that's very good, certainly if one feels indignant it could lead to an expression that comes out as a complaint. Excellent.

    What if I told you that at the moment I get a "feeling tone", a sense that something is right or wrong, that leads me to initially investigate and dig deeper, there is no emotion attached to it at all. It's a feeling yes, it gets my attention, makes me attentive, wary even - it feels like an internal awakening, an alertness.

    Then, after exploring the "feeling tone" can come emotions, yes. Emotions will come for sure when someone reacts to the "feeling tone" with dismissal, "What are you talking about? Everything is fine, why are you complaining?" At that point, indeed I may very well feel indignant, because what is a very neutral beginning is suffused with someone else's assumption of the inner state I must have possessed in order to say what I said.

    It becomes a chain reaction, so generally Fi guards the initial expression of the inner "feeling tone", knowing it could be misinterpreted & misconstrued.

    SO, now, take us to the forum. Here we are. A place where I can interact with other Fi-ers and let me "feeling tone" get expressed out loud, as it were. Then, just like IRL, people come swooping in assigning motivations and intentions to my "feeling tone" that don't exist. A "feeling tone" is just data - it doesn't tell me anything until I analyze it with the other functions. It just tells me something is amiss.

    What uumlau posted above is correct: the "safe place" I speak of is a place where other types at least have a little patience with Fi as we take that first "feeling tone" we generally guard so closely to the outer world. Ask a question if you like, so we can pick it apart, help us with your Ti to dig deep. But please, stop assigning it erroneous emotions, emotional intentions or motivations - because that IS what makes Fi users frustrated and annoyed. That's all I hope for.
    I guess that relates to what I was saying earlier, Fi-users aren't very good at communicating to a non-Fi audience. Because we don't trust (I've seen you talk about how we should trust Fi-users at first) that anything constructive will result once "complaining" commences. I think (not speaking for anyone else here, this is just a theory) that the non-Fi-users try to shut this down because they see it as counter-productive to the discussion of the ideas in a forum thread.

    My problem isn't in the underlying emotion (I don't even care about it), but in the expression, the result, that occurs. The signal-to-noise ratio is out of whack.

  2. #242
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yes! Cascadeco made a great point. I think I'd be much less dismissive with just that little preface, which probably seems so obvious to Fi users that it seems strange they would need to state it that directly.

    Mac also expressed something that I feel. Fe users are very results oriented. In the couple of threads that usually end up being in Feedback or Graveyard or something where Wonka or SS or someone have expressed their indignation or upset at a decision being made, Fe mods do have a tendancy to try to shut it down quickly, which is often perceived as trying stifle truth or individual expression.

    It is not done because there is a resistance to allowing people to express their opinion or because there is something to hide. It is not about wielding power. It's just that there will be a huge bru haha involving members forming camps or developing little vendettas against each other that carry on. The thread starter may feel completely differently about the issue in a couple of days, having had a chance to say their say, while in the meantime, it has set off a bunch of other little forest fires, obscured the point of the original discussion, or raised doubts in people's minds that are unfair and unfounded. They suffer very little of the long term fall out, while it remains our responsibility to deal with it afterwards.

    This is seen as immature or selfish, and non-solution-oriented when we would be very accommodating and open to listening if approached on an individual or small group level. On the main forum, we cannot air much dirty laundry. While we still may not give specifics that violate other individuals' privacy, it is possible to give context that is not suitable to share with hundreds of people at once.

    I am realizing that my natural approach to this type of situation is not effective. On the other hand, I've also found that the more credence you give to non-productive complaints, the ever increasing level of negativity that is fostered uses up hours of time and significant emotional energy when in the end, it often becomes a non-issue to the original person making the claim. This is time that could be used improving the forum or dealing with concerns that we do have the ability to address. Usually I only reach these conclusions after repeated exchanges with someone who has a reputation for being high drama, and has a lot of people that they clash with. It indicates to me that they are not doing everything within their own power to address the situation as well. I hate to invest that kind of energy if the reaction is a lack of gratitude for when we go way out of our way, accusations of being dishonest or power hungry, and more problems to deal with.

    I'm beginning to understand that to Fi, every person should have an equal voice. The fact that some voices are more easily dismissed by us is very disconcerting to Fi users. They feel that there should be some new solution that has not yet been considered that would address the concerns of all involved. The tendancy of using Fe to slap down this kind of behaviour as a defensive and preventative measure also tends to arouse wrath, even amongst those who were not initially part of the fray!

    While I don't have any certain methods of practical application in real time figured out yet, I think understanding the mental landscape of this approach has been very useful to me.

  3. #243
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ Yes, I am making a distinction between the first "feeling tone" and then any resultant emotions, although they can be practically coincident ... I see them as two separate things, but I didn't for a long time. My feelings are strong too, when I am feeling emotion, and I feel a lot of emotion about a lot of things. But if I really unwind an emotion, there will be a "feeling tone", a truthiness of sorts, behind it that helps me learn about myself.


    Other Fi-ers - chip in on that.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #244
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Self-pity and indignation.

    What drives me nuts is the disregard for the outcome. That is just so foreign to me. I mean, I believe there are very important issues upon which we must disagree with the group and fight to the death. However, Fe weighs the consequences when doing so and decides that it is worth it even if they lose everything in the process. It bothers me when Fi users go in with guns blazing, or even with the intention of solving a problem, but then want sympathy when the inevitable happens. If they would be willing to check first, Fe users could be their eyes for them in the darkness of the group situation and show them a path where they could accomplish the same thing safely.
    I think the above helps to make things clear.

    Notice your context: an attempt to accomplish a goal. Do you think Ti or Fi are about "goals" and "accomplishments" in the same way Te and Fe are? Yes, they're solving a problem, but it isn't about how to get something done, but how to understand something!

    Where Ti is often about trying to understand an operating system or computer language or particle physics, Fi is often trying to understand non-scientific, non-analytical matters: sometimes it's just about emotions, but other times, it's about how best to express or say something that doesn't exist in a concrete way.

    In the xkcd strip I quoted, the first character sounds like he's complaining, and yes, this could be the first step towards a gloom and doom nihilism. The second character clearly sees it as such, and advocates a positive attitude. The second person's answer is legitimate: for many people, it is a simple straightforward matter to cultivate a positive attitude, a stiff upper lip, to just set one's emotions aside, and deal with whatever comes in that light.

    Not so for Fi, and I really like this strip because of how the first character resolves it: "Screw this, my attitude isn't my problem." That is so Fi. The problem, as Fi sees it, isn't how to cultivate a particular attitude or distance oneself from one's negative emotions, but rather to understand it. "I'm going to be glum and depressed and pessimistic some days, and I'm going to get better anyway."

    Fe, in this scenario, at least, appears to advocate standing on the shore, letting the waves of emotion lap at one's feet, but otherwise leaving one unaffected and standing in the warm sunlight. Fi, instead, is pointing out that one is not very close to the shore and doesn't have the option to just get out into the sun. One must endure the waves of emotion washing over oneself, maybe sometimes finding oneself under water for a bit, but eventually, by sheer willpower and determination, endure until one can finally climb upon that sunny shore and walk away entirely.

    [I'm not trying to denigrate Fe as being shallow or not really feeling. As discussed earlier in this thread, Fe feels things just as strongly as anyone else. It is because those feelings are so strong that Fe chooses to stand at the shore and deal with things there, rather than brave the stormy emotional surf further out. It's just a metaphor, so feel free to refine it.]

    I would be willing to acknowledge that on a more individual level, Fi users see a myriad of elements that we don't as readily and I need Fi users to be my eyes there.
    To have a glimpse, think of what you would do if you couldn't just process your emotions in the Fe way, putting them to one side, but instead had to endure them, full volume, most all of the time? Instead of figuring out how to employ your emotional understanding, you'd be figuring out how to preserve yourself. It's similar to what you and I go through with Ni, trying to sort through chaos and arrive at something coherent, except Ni deals with the random mental noise we all have, while Fi confronts in particular the emotionally toned noise.

    Fe tends to (please forgive, for lack of a better phrase and splitting the infinitive here) try "working around" that emotional noise to "get things done," which actually helps "resolve" the emotional noise. Fi tends to try understand the emotional noise, which is why it can sound like complaining, because often the statements are about the emotional noise. For Fi, understanding the noise is what "resolves" it, while to Fe, that doesn't seem like a resolution at all.

    The parallels with Te and Ti are intentional, here.

  5. #245
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    OK, that's very good, certainly if one feels indignant it could lead to an expression that comes out as a complaint. Excellent.

    What if I told you that at the moment I get a "feeling tone", a sense that something is right or wrong, that leads me to initially investigate and dig deeper, there is no emotion attached to it at all. It's a feeling yes, it gets my attention, makes me attentive, wary even - it feels like an internal awakening, an alertness.

    Then, after exploring the "feeling tone" can come emotions, yes. Emotions will come for sure when someone reacts to the "feeling tone" with dismissal, "What are you talking about? Everything is fine, why are you complaining?" At that point, indeed I may very well feel indignant, because what is a very neutral beginning is suffused with someone else's assumption of the inner state I must have possessed in order to say what I said.

    It becomes a chain reaction, so generally Fi guards the initial expression of the inner "feeling tone", knowing it could be misinterpreted & misconstrued.

    SO, now, take us to the forum. Here we are. A place where I can interact with other Fi-ers and let my "feeling tone" get expressed out loud, as it were. Then, just like IRL, people come swooping in assigning motivations and intentions to my "feeling tone" that don't exist. A "feeling tone" is just data - it doesn't tell me anything until I analyze it with the other functions. It just tells me something is amiss.

    What uumlau posted above is correct: the "safe place" I speak of is a place where other types at least have a little patience with Fi as we take that first "feeling tone" we generally guard so closely to the outer world. Ask a question if you like, so we can pick it apart, help us with your Ti to dig deep. But please, stop assigning it erroneous emotions, emotional intentions or motivations - because that IS what makes Fi users frustrated and annoyed. That's all I hope for.
    It's like this process of noticing a feeling and identifying where it comes from is so mystical to you that you assume it's mystical to everybody, when for other people, it's more like, OW, my finger hurts from where I smacked it with the hammer! and there's no question about what happened and why, it's very natural and organic. But if there does happen to be any confusion or doubt, we verify with other observers, did you see that? is this what happened? Does your finger hurt, too, when somebody pounds it with a hammer? Ok, yeah, me, too, it's settled that that hurts.

    Where for you it is more like, "I think a finger is hurt somewhere. Oh, my, it's floating into consciousness that it may be my finger. Ah, and I seem to recall that just before the finger hurt, a hammer came into contact with it. It's possible the hammer may have something to do with the hurting. This is important. I must guard this precious knowledge. If I talk about it, they may disagree. If they disagree, I will take offence and hold it against them."

    My reaction to all the talk about Fi is that y'all are really bad at this. Like I'm bad at math.

  6. #246
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    SO, now, take us to the forum. Here we are. A place where I can interact with other Fi-ers and let my "feeling tone" get expressed out loud, as it were. Then, just like IRL, people come swooping in assigning motivations and intentions to my "feeling tone" that don't exist. A "feeling tone" is just data - it doesn't tell me anything until I analyze it with the other functions. It just tells me something is amiss.

    What uumlau posted above is correct: the "safe place" I speak of is a place where other types at least have a little patience with Fi as we take that first "feeling tone" we generally guard so closely to the outer world. Ask a question if you like, so we can pick it apart, help us with your Ti to dig deep. But please, stop assigning it erroneous emotions, emotional intentions or motivations - because that IS what makes Fi users frustrated and annoyed. That's all I hope for.
    So just to be clear, the bolded part above is all you are asking for? Don't all types want this? Do Fi doms and aux want it more than others?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think this is one of the reasons why Fe users tend to see Fi users expression of their feeling tones as complaints. It implies to them (from their projection) that
    1) Change is being requested
    2) The fault lies within someone outside the person making the complaint.

    When we are not given more information to help explain the reasoning for expressing concern, it feels like someone who is immaturely just trying to shift responsibility from themselves and in the process make a lot of other people change just to accommodate them.
    Wow really? I actually don't understand any of this perception that Fi users are complainers. I don't perceive it that way at all. I just perceive that they have a certain view or reaction and that it's theirs and theirs alone. However, I do have the sense sometimes that I need to walk a little bit on eggshells around Fi doms/auxes though because I'm afraid I'll hurt their feelings. It's not that I always do a great job of it though.

    This Fi vs. Fe perspective might be one of the most useful practical things that one can apply IRL related to the functions.

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  7. #247
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Crudely put with the functions in isolation yada yada (in order to "solve" the issue? Hah. ) and in my experience...

    A situation arises that speaks to Ti, let's call it a problem

    Ti: hey, this is interesting, why does this happen...let's explore this
    Te: stop whining, apply pressure, solve

    A situation arises that speak to Fi, let's call it a problem

    Fi: hey, this is interesting, why does this happen...let's explore this
    Fe: stop whining, apply pressure, solve (often they'll be more polite about it than the Te users are about Ti so they may just ignore it)

    It could be the same situation, even.

    And I definitely agree with uumlau about the counting to 10 thing before I express (negative) Fi - it goes something like "hold on, let's look at this from a bunch of other perspectives and see what that gives befor I go [insert response]...hmm maybe they have a point..."

  8. #248
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It's like this process of noticing a feeling and identifying where it comes from is so mystical to you that you assume it's mystical to everybody, when for other people, it's more like, OW, my finger hurts from where I smacked it with the hammer! and there's no question about what happened and why, it's very natural and organic. But if there does happen to be any confusion or doubt, we verify with other observers, did you see that? is this what happened? Does your finger hurt, too, when somebody pounds it with a hammer? Ok, yeah, me, too, it's settled that that hurts.

    Where for you it is more like, "I think a finger is hurt somewhere. Oh, my, it's floating into consciousness that it may be my finger. Ah, and I seem to recall that just before the finger hurt, a hammer came into contact with it. It's possible the hammer may have something to do with the hurting. This is important. I must guard this precious knowledge. If I talk about it, they may disagree. If they disagree, I will take offence and hold it against them."

    My reaction to all the talk about Fi is that y'all are really bad at this. Like I'm bad at math.
    This has me laughing! Yes, it can seem so very much like this, from the outside, can't it?

    Fi isn't saying, though, gee, I hadn't thought to connect that hammer that hit my finger with my finger pain. In the strip I quote, both characters are well aware that the first is sick, and that being sick is a primary cause, here. The humorous portrayal, however, is about "how to deal with being sick."

    In that Fi thread, the real message was "this Fi portrayal could be better," not "this Fi portrayal makes me feel upset."

  9. #249
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    @ highlander

    Absolutely (at least in my case! - I'll let the others weigh in for themselves). I think this is why you see the kind of indignation from Fe-ers that you do. I only express my dissonnant feelings with someone else if I believe

    1) A grave wrong is being done and in good conscience I need to speak if there's any influence I can exert to change it. In this case, I try to plan for the best way possible to do this, because it's critical and this is my one shot at being heard. If I present it wrongly, the other person will not only write me off, but also the issue at hand of being of any concern. I also recognize that it's likely that I will make people upset which could have longlasting consequences for me, so I want to really be sure that it's important before ruffling feathers. (I think this is why we get mad when Te doesn't seem to take our speaking out as anything more but tossing ideas around. That's when we start getting blunter and blunter because we assume that they just didn't receive the message. If they had they'd either be agreeing or arguing against it.)

    2) It must be aired for us to be able to work together effectively. In this case, there is a constructive outcome to successfully negotiating the conflict together. If I foresee that bringing it up will not change anything, then I either try to work alone as much as I can, find an alternative situation to be in, try to impact the situation from a different angle that will indirectly influence the other person's course of action, or remain silent and only deal with them as I have to while I determine whether larger change can be affected or whether I need to leave.

    3) It will greatly impact our relationship in the long term if this problem is not addressed. At that point I will have tried seeing if I am over-reacting, investigating many possible motives for the other person's behaviour so I can understand it from their perspective, altering my own actions or reactions in many different combinations to accommodate and incorporating any new information I get to try to make better sense of it. If I still conclude that the problem lies outside of my locus of control and that the person is either unintentionally or intentionally creating the problem (or exaccerbating it), then I will bring it up. By then, I feel terribly strongly about it and it is embarrassing, infuriating or devastating when it is ignored or discounted because I don't bother people unnecessarily with that sort of stuff if I can help it. When I do present it, I also try to be specific and give an idea of a possible alternative course of action that would work more effectively in my eyes. I back down quickly if the other person responds sympathetically and seems to take my concerns seriously.

    As you can see, much thought goes into any of these three. I don't think out loud about them. Occasionally I will consult some people whose opinions I trust to see whether my own perceptions are reasonable or not, but I would never do so in a public way.

    Therefore, when Ne thinking out loud, combines with Fi expressing their feeling tones, it seems to me that they have not bothered to

    1) Think the whole issue through - thus bringing up stuff that may not be such a big deal later and that has no suggestion of a solution accompanying it.
    2) Taken responsibility for their own action
    3) Considered the various outcomes for reacting in different ways
    4) Are willing to deal with the fallout from taking a stand

    Again, I do not mean this in a disrespectful way to anyone. Hope that helps flesh it out a bit though.

  10. #250
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    @ Uytuun - Totally! I think this has been one of the most illuminating things for me in dealing with Te (maybe just as much as Fi). There are a lot of conversations that I wish I could go back to and rephrase.

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