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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  • Yes

    23 63.89%
  • No

    13 36.11%
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  1. #231
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Self-pity and indignation.

    What drives me nuts is the disregard for the outcome. That is just so foreign to me. I mean, I believe there are very important issues upon which we must disagree with the group and fight to the death. However, Fe weighs the consequences when doing so and decides that it is worth it even if they lose everything in the process. It bothers me when Fi users go in with guns blazing, or even with the intention of solving a problem, but then want sympathy when the inevitable happens. If they would be willing to check first, Fe users could be their eyes for them in the darkness of the group situation and show them a path where they could accomplish the same thing safely. I would be willing to acknowledge that on a more individual level, Fi users see a myriad of elements that we don't as readily and I need Fi users to be my eyes there.

  2. #232
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Actually this thread is an interesting study in why people might not feel "safe" posting in a thread about Fi.

  3. #233
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    A sense of being wronged, indignation.
    OK, that's very good, certainly if one feels indignant it could lead to an expression that comes out as a complaint. Excellent.

    What if I told you that at the moment I get a "feeling tone", a sense that something is right or wrong, that leads me to initially investigate and dig deeper, there is no emotion attached to it at all. It's a feeling yes, it gets my attention, makes me attentive, wary even - it feels like an internal awakening, an alertness.

    Then, after exploring the "feeling tone" can come emotions, yes. Emotions will come for sure when someone reacts to the "feeling tone" with dismissal, "What are you talking about? Everything is fine, why are you complaining?" At that point, indeed I may very well feel indignant, because what is a very neutral beginning is suffused with someone else's assumption of the inner state I must have possessed in order to say what I said.

    It becomes a chain reaction, so generally Fi guards the initial expression of the inner "feeling tone", knowing it could be misinterpreted & misconstrued.

    SO, now, take us to the forum. Here we are. A place where I can interact with other Fi-ers and let my "feeling tone" get expressed out loud, as it were. Then, just like IRL, people come swooping in assigning motivations and intentions to my "feeling tone" that don't exist. A "feeling tone" is just data - it doesn't tell me anything until I analyze it with the other functions. It just tells me something is amiss.

    What uumlau posted above is correct: the "safe place" I speak of is a place where other types at least have a little patience with Fi as we take that first "feeling tone" we generally guard so closely to the outer world. Ask a question if you like, so we can pick it apart, help us with your Ti to dig deep. But please, stop assigning it erroneous emotions, emotional intentions or motivations - because that IS what makes Fi users frustrated and annoyed. That's all I hope for.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #234
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    It's a ridiculous proposition, anyway, the idea that you should feel "safe" to discuss anything. If making you feel safe is the condition of the discussion ... why is that my job? Now hear this: you're not safe. These are possible dangers: I may argue. I might get annoyed and show it. I may prove you wrong. Possibly I'll answer your questions more pointedly than you might have liked. And vice versa. There is no "safe" here. Also anything you say can and will be held against you, because all typing on the internet is forever. What kind of "safe" is everybody supposed to provide? Don't feel safe. Keep your wits about you and carry on.

  5. #235
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    It's similar to not being able to talk about "psychic" things on a board about being psychic because it's not concrete or irritates people. Nonetheless, this is a forum for personality types and not being able to discuss part of it without people complaining about it is lessening the worth of the forum.

    Yes, I know psychic is a weak analogy, just work with me.

  6. #236
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    ^ Re. PB's post - I realize part of the purpose of this thread was to discuss the ability/safety of Fi's to express themselves in a way that is more natural to them, and whether or not that is possible in an environment such as this.

    But, I just wanted to say that some confusion and protestation from others, in various threads, could be removed if when you experienced one of these 'feeling tones' that you wanted to explore, you prefaced all of it by saying: 'Something doesn't seem to be right. I don't know what it is, I don't know whether after exploration I'll decide that everything is in fact ok, but I would like to discuss a, b, and c (or whatever) because I sense something is being missed, and I also want to see if other people are also sensing this.' Or something like that. You know? And then you could go into more of your 'natural' language. I mean I realize this is probably not what you're wanting to have to do, but by prefacing something neutrally first, people then understand the purpose behind why you're wanting to discuss.

    (And now I'm off to a dentist appt. Blech.)
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  7. #237
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @ Elaur: exactly that, well said.

    Please too - no one be offended with fidelia's and Tiltyred's posts - they are exactly what's needed right now, so leave the righteous Fi at the door.

    TYVM.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #238
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    So PB, you're saying that feeling tones carry no emotion with them? To me that's a strange thought. All feeling of mine also carries with it definite emotion. Because I don't trust that the emotions I have are stable and will remain, I tend to also hold back on expressing feelings until I know whether the emotions at the time strongly influences my feeling, or if it is something that remains over time and has reasons to back it up.

    If you people's process in that regard is somewhat more separate, that would explain why it feels frustrating to be dismissed like that. Fe users tend to not want to bother people with their feelings because if they feel strongly enough to express them, it usually is a request for some kind of change and accommodation on other people's part. The bigger the group, the more people there are that would be affected by me speaking up. Therefore, while I may express something more easily to an individual, the larger the group, the less I would openly say, unless I was sure it was an issue for other people as well.

    If the problem lies outside of my locus of control, there is also to some extent an expression that the responsibility for the reaction I'm having is within their locus of power instead. So it could be felt as an accusation of sorts. I think this is one of the reasons why Fe users tend to see Fi users expression of their feeling tones as complaints. It implies to them (from their projection) that
    1) Change is being requested
    2) The fault lies within someone outside the person making the complaint.

    When we are not given more information to help explain the reasoning for expressing concern, it feels like someone who is immaturely just trying to shift responsibility from themselves and in the process make a lot of other people change just to accommodate them.

  9. #239
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I'm trying to work with you...did you want to elaborate on that bad analogy?

  10. #240
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, I wouldn't normally express what I did if PB hadn't specifically asked for it. If we want to get to the bottom of this, I think the only way is to understand each other's thought processes and what led them to the conclusion they have made. What I have said is not a statement that those reactions are a reflection of the truth, but rather that given the way we would react in similar circumstances, these are the kinds of motivations that would be attributed to that behaviour.

    Awhile back, Teslashock and I had a conversation in which she said something about having initially read me as quite insecure and looking for affirmation because I asked a lot of questions and talked to a lot of different people on the forum on here. If she had been acting in the same manner, she said it would have been when she was overcompensating for unsure feelings. Through the course of interacting with her, she said that she realized that she had been mistaken and that it had more to do with me wanting to better understand what was going on around me.

    I think in this case, Fe-ers make those same kinds of assumptions about motives, because they only have access to their own thought processes to try to explain that behaviour. Sometimes it's not until you even are presented with a different mode of interaction that you realize what your own natural mode is and also that it's not universal! What I am trying to do is say how it looks to us and then be corrected on what the premises you guys start with are instead and have you describe your process and how it leads to a much different conclusion. The only way we can show more sensitivity is if we understand where our differences in perception lie and why that is.

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