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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  • Yes

    23 63.89%
  • No

    13 36.11%
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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You're making my point for me. One doesn't see it in oneself. More specifically, from my point of view, I hear that first bit, and THEN it's followed by the hemming and hawing (or question and answer). In this case, your post sounds rather dismissive to me, coming to a swift conclusion. Do you believe that you aren't being dismissive?
    I'm sure it could sound that way, but I added "IME"!

    But it's not a swift conclusion, it's a conclusion based on years of observation. I don't think your conclusion about INTPs was swift either for the same reason.

    And aren't you undermining your argument now? A half-baked assertion followed by hemming and hawing and qualifications and questions isn't much of a conclusion.

    You originally said:

    Ti+Ne will often say, "No," or "This is wrong," or "You can't do that." That is to say, it will Ne-blurt out a negation of whatever was just presented or said, with no followup reasoning.

  2. #212
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I'm sure it could sound that way, but I added "IME"!
    Yes, I saw that.

    But it's not a swift conclusion, it's a conclusion based on years of observation. I don't think your conclusion about INTPs was swift either for the same reason.
    In other words, "That statement doesn't seem correct." Just like the Fi's were saying about the Fi description. Based on years of observation.

    And aren't you undermining your argument now? A half-baked assertion followed by hemming and hawing and qualifications and questions isn't much of a conclusion.

    You originally said: <with no followup reasoning>
    Nah, I'm just throwing your words back at you: you said "swift conclusions," not me.

    Part of my point is that it isn't a conclusion when Ti or Fi makes such an explanation, but the starting point of a discussion.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes, I saw that.


    In other words, "That statement doesn't seem correct." Just like the Fi's were saying about the Fi description. Based on years of observation.



    Nah, I'm just throwing your words back at you: you said "swift conclusions," not me.

    Part of my point is that it isn't a conclusion when Ti or Fi makes such an explanation, but the starting point of a discussion.
    And I'm saying Ti+Ne isn't comparable to Fi+Ne. Ti would love a simple statement, but that's not what occurs. They don't like the "complaining" that comes along with it. That's the sticking point, not a conclusion. Otherwise the same issue would arise with INTJs, and it doesn't.

  4. #214
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    OP: No, Fi discussions invariably turn into messes. I can deal with it but it does make it difficult to discuss. I personally Fi and I would love to hear more about how it affected people growing up and currently.

    As an aside there is enough "I know better than you" going around to overtake a discussion and make it not worth the time since you don't "learn" anything from a discussion framed in that manner.

  5. #215
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    And I'm saying Ti+Ne isn't comparable to Fi+Ne. Ti would love a simple statement, but that's not what occurs. They don't like the "complaining" that comes along with it. That's the sticking point, not a conclusion. Otherwise the same issue would arise with INTJs, and it doesn't.
    As a tip of my hat to your "xkcd" type, allow me to present today's strip:



    Frames 1,2: Fi expressing Fi-ness. Fe responding as if it's "complaining." In particular, Frame 2 is how Fi hears the Fe talk.
    Frame 3: The crash and burn!
    Frames 4,5: A positive expression of Fi.

    The issue doesn't arise with INTJ's, by the way, because INTJs just stay quiet about that stuff and don't express Fi ... because it isn't "safe" to do so. We know it would be heard as complaining.

    It isn't complaining, unless one defines "complaining" as "trying to work through an emotional/feeling/Fi issue." In Fi terms, though, "complaining" is something very different from "trying to work things through." The reason I use the strip above is that this is someone trying to come to an Fi-style resolution, not simply whining/complaining without any apparent purpose than to gain sympathy/affirmation.

    I am capable of expressing Fi now (that I'm older) without it sounding like complaining because I heavily process it before I reveal it. But that is nothing like the Fi-Ne connection, where Fi comes out in an Ne way, much more raw, not an Ni-Te-Fi way. I understand that you don't see the Ti-Ne as being parallel with Fi-Ne, but from my INTJ perspective, they are very similar, but with different context, Ti more intellectual, Fi more emotive.

  6. #216
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    The Fi-users believe they are discussing ideas, though perhaps in a Fi-friendly language.

    The non-Fi-users don't see it that way. They see it as more self-absorbed complaining.

    In other words, the non-Fi-users simply don't recognize that there is any content to actually discuss, just complaints to fend off before another thread is ruined by them. Again, it really does come down to communication styles. Even when there is content, it will get passed over because "complaints" are more attention-getting.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Doesn't matter, the problem is in the perception.

    If you want my opinion though - there are ideas being discussed AND complaining.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    This is the wrong approach. From experience, mods don't read everything, and even if they read the same thing you do, if no one complains they are likely to just leave it alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    And I'm saying Ti+Ne isn't comparable to Fi+Ne. Ti would love a simple statement, but that's not what occurs. They don't like the "complaining" that comes along with it. That's the sticking point, not a conclusion. Otherwise the same issue would arise with INTJs, and it doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Again, the content wasn't seen because of the complaints. It came across as just more noise.
    Examine your choice to use the word I have bolded above. It predominates your posts on the subject. No other substitutes for it, (except whining I think from that other thread.)


    –verb (used without object)
    1.
    to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault: He complained constantly about the noise in the corridor.
    2.
    to tell of one's pains, ailments, etc.: to complain of a backache.
    3.
    to make a formal accusation: If you think you've been swindled, complain to the police.

    —Synonyms
    1. Complain, grumble, growl, whine are terms for expressing dissatisfaction or discomfort. To complain is to protest against or lament a wrong: to complain about high prices. To grumble is to utter ill-natured complaints half to oneself: to grumble about the service. Growl may express more anger than grumble : to growl in reply to a question. To whine is to complain in a meanspirited way, using a nasal tone: to whine like a coward, like a spoiled child.


    One complains when one orders dinner at a restaurant and it comes to the table cold. One complains when, upon arrival at the expensive hotel, there are no towels in the bathroom. One complains when after a long day's work, the back aches and the feet are tired.

    There's an underpinning of emotion when one complains - a person can be sad, angry, terse, in pain ... I am extremely interested to know what emotion you think underpins Fi "complaining" ... what emotional state are you assigning Fi users when they express their Fi "feeling tones" out loud?

    Play here with me now, let's see where this goes.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #217
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    It was simply the most polite word I could find to express the idea.

  8. #218
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    The non-Fi-users don't see it that way. They see it as more self-absorbed complaining.
    Actually the problem I see with Mac's post is him speaking for other Fe's. That is where the problem lies. I have non-Fi friends who don't feel the same way about Fi.

    "Non-Fi see Fi as complaining" is talking for other people and making your point stronger because "other people" feel that way too.

  9. #219
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Well, other people do. ...

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Actually the problem I see with Mac's post is him speaking for other Fe's. That is where the problem lies. I have non-Fi friends who don't feel the same way about Fi.

    "Non-Fi see Fi as complaining" is talking for other people and making your point stronger because "other people" feel that way too.
    Others have posted and agreed with me. I've discussed this issue with other people before posting here too.

    Or I'm lying and I just like picking on you all.

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