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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  • Yes

    23 63.89%
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  1. #191
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ this is true.

    though, notably, the bulk of the complaining comes after the first wave of pointing out something "not right" is ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco
    And again, I guess I took at as an accepted Given that they are/would be different, because they ARE different. If they weren't different, they wouldn't be two separate functions. Cognitively they do very different things with very different 'goals'/purposes.
    yeah. you're right, you and i are just looking at two different facets. i still am trying to emphasize that being separate functions doesn't necessarily mean they're not going to overlap, though. they'll overlap in their Feeling-ness -- just like Fi will overlap with Si in terms of Introversion. i'll try to avoid conversation of the guides in this thread per PB but i'm itching to get back to it because i feel like the initial problem with the Fi guide was largely that a big chunk of perspective was missing, and that perspective pertained to Feeling overlap.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hello Fe user!

    Are they really complaining or are they pointing out flaws in an idea? The idea happened to be a description-an idea- that they had an Fi disagreement with...they analyzed with Fi and found it flawed thus begin verbal discussion and dissection with Te about how to improve it??
    So I have Fe because I agree with him? What about Lady X who can't for the life of her see anything wrong? Is Tater an INFJ too? What about FineLine? What about the 14 (vs. 11) Fi users who DO feel safe?

    I think these questions need to be asked, because there are very very few people on this forum who actually follow function theory who think I have Fe.

  3. #193
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I've got to stop these giant posts...
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    We should always keep this bolded point in mind.

    Part of my theme in THIS thread is that NFPs are responsible for making their own "safe place". Not by disengaging and PMing each other in private, but by acknowledging that maybe, just MAYBE, you might have misread the tone. Odds are, you have, especially if it's a poster you've read and agreed with many times before, when their words weren't directed at you.

    You think this is unlikely, perhaps, that you must have read the tone right? Guess what: they think they read YOUR initial statement(s) right! And you know they didn't.
    Yeah, you're right. Caution is needed on both sides.

    The thing is there is a difference between thinking the other group is being rather annoying and being made to feel like the other group is attacking you. When NTs misread our posts, they get irritated; when we misread theirs, we feel like we're being accused of being pathetic, narcissistic, perverse, wastes of space. It is not that we misread more, it is that there is greater personal impact on us from the same level of misinterpretation. I realise this probably sounds whiny but its harder to overcome a wounding statement seemingly targeted at you. Even if we try to step back and assume they meant well, the hurt has already taken hold and it is difficult to overlook.

    Here's where it gets funny. As an NT myself, and particularly as an INTJ, I express my respect for you by considering your point of view and replying to it. If I thought it didn't merit attention, I wouldn't enter the conversation in the first place. Yet if I didn't have a great many years of practice and focus on learning how to communicate, you'd perceive my words just as you perceive theirs. Thoughtless, hurtful, negative. Why? Because ill-phrased disagreement, with a complete absence of tone to make clear one's good intentions, feels hurtful and negative. NTs are used to being "rude" and "abrupt" with one another, though that rudeness and abruptness is more the incidental sound of ideas colliding into each other, with all parties interested in seeing what might appear on the other side. Once in a while, even as an NT, someone says something that gets my goat, so to speak. We have to deal with that same hurtfulness that you NFPs have to deal with - we've just had a lot of practice putting it to one side, because it comes with the territory.
    I realize it is easy to inadvertently misphrase one's words and I don't doubt NTs can get hurt by comments made here. I certainly wouldn't wish to engage in behaviour that resulted in that. But we can all acknowledge that its harder to hurt an NT than a NFP. I don't want to sound like its a competition, only to explain that more care is needed with us than talking to a fellow NT; just as much as we must take the time to look past any abruptness.

    But I don't wish to seem like I want to continue to debate this when I feel we mostly agree. It is, as you imply, very much about individuals developing the personal skills to deal with this stuff.
    So when NFPs enter into the conversation, I fully understand that there's a good deal of harshness, but one should understand that it is largely incidental, unintended, and is backed by genuine disagreement/misunderstanding.

    Can the solution to this "safe environment" question simply be for NFPs to realize that text-based disagreement can sound thoughtless and dismissive, even though it really isn't, and wouldn't be heard as such, in person?
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's also the responsibility of other people to cease deliberate provocation, and for the mods to warn about it when it becomes incessant. The NFP "hot button" is not hard to find, and some people seem obsessed with pressing it over and over again when NFP's engage in a discussion. It's ignorable to a point, then one can only extrapolate from repeated offenses that it's done with specific intention, that it's no oopsie-style accident.

    Where does one draw the line? Many people on the forum just shake their heads and dismiss provocative posts as ridiculous I know, but that doesn't make it OK. Does it?
    While I do agree with ummlau about caution in reading posts, I do think there is truth in this.

    My gut feeling is that NFP's are hesitant to report posts ... we know we can be sensitive sometimes and so we already err on the side of the poster, believing that they didn't intend to be hurtful. NFP's, do you agree or see that differently?
    As far as my memory serves me, I have never reported a single post or poster. It would take something undeniably wrong for me to do so. I don't wish to report someone simply because I find them rude and irritating - I think it is better to leave it to the mods to decide on such things. But frankly I don't judge whether a post is inappropriate based on if I think they deserved to get banned or not. In life, there are no legal consequences for being a jerk but there are often social ones - and these are what leads people to check their behaviour. Unfortunately we seem to be lacking this factor here because its 'the internet' and 'it doesn't count' for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    and i do know that there's a big difference between an emotionally-charged post that's not meant as an attack (eg my last response to proteanmix's post), and an emotionally-charged post that is meant as an attack, and i can easily tell the difference with Fi users, but a lot of times i can't tell the difference with Fe users. it's funny how clear the Fi pattern of aggression is - it's very reactionary - but Fe is so confusing to me. an offended Fi dom/aux just gets closer and closer and explodes. it's super obvious. and a Fi-Fi fight... it's like 3 minutes of yelling at one another really loudly then both people breaking down and crying and lots of hugs. it's kinda intense but it's very... well, easy. fast. things get out in the open, get healed. boom and done.
    I don't know about the crying and hugging part

    You are right about how its loud then quickly over and healed. I just find we yell, storm off and sulk and then after an hour or so everyone is way over it. However I rarely get to that stage - I mostly deal with my feelings myself than talking/yelling it out.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I've got to stop these giant posts...

    Yeah, you're right. Caution is needed on both sides.

    The thing is there is a difference between thinking the other group is being rather annoying and being made to feel like the other group is attacking you. When NTs misread our posts, they get irritated; when we misread theirs, we feel like we're being accused of being pathetic, narcissistic, perverse, wastes of space.
    I doubt this is always the case. I'm sure some NTs get tired of being accused of being "big meanies" when they're just being objective or rational, and I've seen NFs go off on NTs for basically no reason at all...and NFs can, in certain cases, be much nastier since we are more likely to become emotional and act out. I think some NTs have surely been told they are perverse, narcissistic, pathetic wastes of space, and worse. Some of them probably get frustrated and feel misunderstood when people keep insisting they be politically correct or overly polite and they weren't even trying to be "mean." Like Uumlau already pointed out, NTs DO have feelings, and if their feelings get hurt they're accustomed to pushing it aside and covering it up through T preference habit, not because they don't actually have hurt feelings inside.

    It is not that we misread more, it is that there is greater personal impact on us from the same level of misinterpretation. I realise this probably sounds whiny but its harder to overcome a wounding statement seemingly targeted at you. Even if we try to step back and assume they meant well, the hurt has already taken hold and it is difficult to overlook.
    On one hand I do understand you, I do. On the other hand, there are situations where some NFs don't want to hear the truth or a conflicting point of view, even if in reality it might be to their own benefit.

  5. #195
    Ginkgo
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    Yes, I feel free to express my thoughts about Fi on TypoC. No one can "shut" anyone else "down". Everyone is free to engage in discussion or discourse by default. If someone challenges my thoughts on the issue, then it's a sign that could mean at least one of us is wrong. If someone is solicited by a challenge, they are free to keep expressing themselves, either indirectly or directly to the challenger.

  6. #196
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Much has been said in this thread, including a lot that I probably think is nitpicking beyond my interest level, but I'll go ahead and add in a smidgeon. As poster number 2 in this thread, it's time to add more!

    I've probably said all of this before, but I'll repeat it again.
    1) I REALLY don't understand why Fi and Fe seem to feel so much contention for each other here. IRL I rarely experience this issue/dynamic. Fe'ers and I usually share common goals, as fas as I can tell, and usually we work to find a mutually acceptable conclusion. Fe tends to do better when dealing with groups or with people we don't know well, but Fi brings plenty of value to the table in terms of insight, caring, going the extra mile, being thoughtful, etc.
    2) As an INFP who can easily be misconstrued as a INTP, and having known LOTS of INTP's in my time, I also don't see the issue with Ti/Fi. NOw sure, me volunteering with dogs isn't going to help any ones chess skills, and vice versa, but I just haven't seen conflict here either.

    3) Ok, conflict time. I think that if Fe wants to get into conniptions with a function, Ti is the natural and obvious choice for a sparring war with Fe. "You didn't think it through enough" "your not fully informed" "you don't understand" "that is stupid and illogical" etc would be typical arguments I'd expect from Ti against Fe's directives. I've read that Te-Fi and Fe-Ti are both mutually antagonistic pairings.

    4) I kinda see how Fe and Te could get along, since both are practical/pragmatic/effective-oriented, but personally if I ever wanted to attack/deny/refute/ignore/invalidate/etc Fe, Te is where I see it coming from. Sure, Ti might have theoretically-based disagreements with Fe, but the only "STFU and do your job, no one gives a shit what you think or how you feel or why" "we don't have time or resources" "this is irrelevant" "shut up and do what is expected of you" "I can tell you the truth, or I can stand here and blow sunshine up your ass" type comments I here ALL come from Te users. "Our pragmatism trumps your social buttkissing", so to speak.



    To me, one of the main contributions of Fi is high minded ideals that Ne then helps to bring into reality, and then INFP's can inspire others and lead the way. Many of the highest forms/expressions of altruism come from Fi peeps.


    I guess I should point out that I have rarely had the luxury of spending time in Fe-dom groups, or even in F-dom groups period.

    I think things work out better when we can accept people for who they are and the gifts/skills they bring to the table. This probably ties back into me never having spent much time in F-dom groups, but I've never had the luxury of being like "Well, you *are* F[e/i], but you know I'm F[i/e] and, well, your just not F[i/e] enough for me!!! [thumbs nose at irrelevant F[e/i] person]" I think its stupid, misguided, uninformed, narrow-minded, biggoted, or delusional to expect that others will use the same functions that you do, or that they should adjust/compensate their functions to match yours. For example, I don't stand there and tell my ENFJ friend "Wow, your so nice and poised and outgoing and friendly and all, but really, your just not high-minded and idealistic enough [Fi deficient]. Oh, and by the way, your art skills suck [Se]. Man, I *wish* you were an ISFP!!!"


    I think its somewhat rare for other types, especially the T ones, to particularly like or respect Fi, *especially* outside of social relationships. Sometimes I can inspire them with Fi, or else set a goal/intention, but usually in executing objectives/tasks, I have to use either Ne or some S. Which is fine with me, Fi sets some lofty ideal/goal, the other functions try to perform the goals.

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    As far as my memory serves me, I have never reported a single post or poster. It would take something undeniably wrong for me to do so. I don't wish to report someone simply because I find them rude and irritating - I think it is better to leave it to the mods to decide on such things.
    This is the wrong approach. From experience, mods don't read everything, and even if they read the same thing you do, if no one complains they are likely to just leave it alone.

  8. #198
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    My ESTJ husband reminded me of a great truth - Te and Fe decisions ARE always right, unless proven otherwise. He's concise. Yet in that little nugget - so much wisdom. The vantage point provides one with an element of confidence, of surety, that other functions cannot replicate as readily.
    Can you elaborate on the above? I don't quite understand


    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Some people think that dancing around what they see as the truth is polishing a turd, so they will come out with it, harsh as it may sound.
    I love the above quote


    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    FTR, if I still believed in function theory I'd list myself as ENFP still, but I've decided to reject function theory in favor of Keirsey.
    But not the one above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post

    Fe critique very often feels...condemnatory. There is something about Fi...When we externalize Fi we are offering up part of our soul-our self definition-our values (are these one and the same?) because we feel there is value in offering that opinion up because it may help others around us? We are putting ourselves on the line...putting ourselves at risk...as that risk is worth the benefit to the group or the individual in question?

    To be roughly rebutted by Fe or rejected without consideration-it feels like our offering was rejected outright-thus our Fi values/soul/self was rejected as flawed-we are thus flawed. To stand up and speak in the first place took a lot of guts, an intense visceral drive that the value was worth standing up for, that a fight was worth fighting. Perhaps there is some weird "boy cried wolf" thing going on for Fi. If I stand up for an Fi idea, it better be one I am damned sure is worth standing up for.
    Exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    So, years pass, experience accumulates, we "grow up". At a certain point in our lives, when enough confidence in our inner process has developed, Fi users generally tend to verbalize what we are "seeing" to others to affirm or refute our hypotheses. We have learned to place limits on what we believe via Fi until we obtain more empirical evidence to back it up, as in the parentheses above. Ne, to explore all possibilities. Si, to plumb the depths of our own history and that of others, throughout time. Te - Te is the "say it out loud" function. Not in the confident position of the first function, to assert "You are wrong" but in the fourth, "This seems wrong to me." We say it like this in order to acknowledge the truth of each individual person, and we await the replies we receive in order to obtain more data to enable us to more deeply analyze the situation and come to fuller, more complete conclusions. We already know from previous experience, reactions will vary. There will be defensiveness, anger, relief, happiness, and in amongst all that, hopefully a whole bunch of truthiness.

    Realize too, it takes some maturity to unwind how emotions enter into the equation, different than "feeling tones" - our own emotions, and the emotions of others, and how both of these can play into Fi values. I could have a feeling tone as the underlying factor in an emotion I experience. They are distinct; separate, yet connected - and it too can take time to un-wend these. There is a great deal of interplay. To summarize that, Fi users DON'T expose "truth" with the impulsive innocence of a child, especially beyond a certain age prone to idealistic naivete. We know there are potential global and local ramifications - and in addition, personal repercussions will likely be heading our way.
    You know, looking through this thread, there are a lot of references to emotions. To me, Fi seems to be about values, beliefs and being true to ourselves. At the core, it's about what is important and evaluating things against personal convictions that we hold deeply. It's highly judgmental - possibly more judgmental than any other function - and it's not happy unless reality matches its ideal. It's not necessarily nice. With regards to being "whiny and self-absorbed," - sure - at its worst, a preference for Fi can lead towards things like self pity and selfishness. That being said, you could say negative things about other functions. You could say that Te can be controlling and bullying.

    Jung said:
    "Still waters run deep is very true of introverted feeling types. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, hard to understand. As they are mainly guided by their subjective feeing, their true motives generally remain hidden. Their outward demeanor is harmonious, inconspicuous, giving an impression of pleasing repose with no desire to affect others to impress, influence or to change them in any way. Since this type appears rather cold and reserved, it might seem on a superficial view that they have no feelings at all. But this would be quite wrong. The truth is, their feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop in depth."

    Because Fi relates to these deeply held personal values and convictions, it naturally is a sensitive area for someone who strongly prefers this function. It goes to the heart of who they are and what they are all about. To expose these things to external criticism makes them vulnerable. Therefore, it seems natural that someone with a strong preference for Fi will hesitate to communicate these things. In this regard, I think if an Fi user is not comfortable talking about Fi, it may have less to do with how others respond towards them and more to do with how they respond towards others.

    Of course, I'm not an Fi dom, so maybe there is something I don't understand.
    Last edited by highlander; 12-01-2010 at 02:18 PM.

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  9. #199
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Doesn't matter, the problem is in the perception.

    If you want my opinion though - there are ideas being discussed AND complaining.
    They asked why people disagreed. They got it. They saw it as complaining.

    What is asking for an answer and then dismissing it? That is like getting the answer to your problems and dismissing those answers because you don't see them as answers. Hiding yourself from "the truth" so to say.

    There ARE reasons why people complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    On one hand I do understand you, I do. On the other hand, there are situations where some NFs don't want to hear the truth or a conflicting point of view, even if in reality it might be to their own benefit.
    Same for other types.

  10. #200
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    It goes both ways. I feel like some Fi users dismiss my perspective JUST because they don't see value in some things I perceive differently (I probably do that too). I think many people are threatened by perspectives that are different from their own. I am going to state an absolute. I doubt that anyone in the world feels safe to be completely themselves..... I struggle with that a loe even as a Fe user. In this way, I agree with Arclight and find thread a bit unsettling. Even the "conformist" SJs have that issue (note the sarcasm)......

    From my perspective, on a number of occasions, I see Fi users shoot down other Fi users and say stuff like
    Fi user 1: With my Fi, I feel/ believe........
    Fi user 2: No, that's NOT Fi because that's not how I view things... and those things completely oppose MY values.
    Because of this, I find some of these threads to be counterproductive.
    I will step out now.

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