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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  • Yes

    23 63.89%
  • No

    13 36.11%
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  1. #181
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    To all: although I find the discussion interesting, let's be careful here, I don't want to specifically dissect the guides and those threads in this one.

    Thanks.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  2. #182
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    pb, i understand why you're saying that, but the point of my personal discussion is trying to understand the resistance to Fi users speaking certain opinions. that last thread was a good example because it addresses this situation.

    --

    anyway, as for Fe and Fi, i still don't understand why certain topics are such a problem in the eyes of some* Fe users. the message i keep getting from them is "the issue is already decided; stop talking about that. you're harping on it because there is a problem with you, not the issue."

    why will they not concede to address the issues? if they'd just offer some proof that the issue is a non-issue, then i'll toddle on my way. but there's no willingness to even address the issue. i'm just getting shut down. i don't get it.

    here, suddenly, i get penalized for being open-minded by the people i would most expect to be open. why?

    that's why i don't feel safe. i feel like i keep getting told to shut up or <insert threat here>.



    *a few in particular. not all by any means.

  3. #183
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ you know I love your input here - and you have a very valid question and make excellent points, and am not trying to "shut you down". If we want to do this >> "trying to understand the resistance to Fi users speaking certain opinions ..." I support it 100%. I just want to careful that those threads don't become the focal point in this one, and I get some feely-tones that we could all of a sudden be massively headed in that direction. (I know some of that has come up here already in thread, as is to be expected.)

    But, if we need to go there, we can and will. Is it OK though if we press the pause button for a sec? PM me and we will figure out how to mesh it together.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #184
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ oh it's ok! i don't mind pulling it back from the Fe-Fi guide stuff. i'd like to be done with that anyway. just wanted to explain why i was talking about it again in the first place

    the shutting down wasn't meant at you, either, sorry. that was probably misleading. that's how i feel towards certain Fe users on the boards. i've edited it to be more clear now

  5. #185
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    If I can step in a bit again...

    I'm still seeing some misunderstanding on this idea that Fi-users are being shut down when all they want to do is discuss ideas.

    This is also related to the miscommunication between the Fi-users and the non-Fi-users (I could say Fe-users, but it seems weird to call INTPs that for example).

    The Fi-users believe they are discussing ideas, though perhaps in a Fi-friendly language.

    The non-Fi-users don't see it that way. They see it as more self-absorbed complaining.

    In other words, the non-Fi-users simply don't recognize that there is any content to actually discuss, just complaints to fend off before another thread is ruined by them. Again, it really does come down to communication styles. Even when there is content, it will get passed over because "complaints" are more attention-getting.

  6. #186
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    an offended Fe dom/aux... like backs away and takes indirect potshots. i don't know how to identify it, and i don't know how to deal with it. i feel like Fe users want to silence and prolong conflict, when i'd rather just get it out into the open and address it and be done with it. and i don't want to escalate things but i feel like i always inadvertently do. help pls?
    Sometimes when I end up bowing out and don't respond or continue the thread of conversation, it's not that I'm offended, it's just that I've kind of concluded or resigned myself to the fact that it's very likely a 'will have to agree to disagree' thing, and I just don't want to prolong needlessly when I sense that that's probably the case and we're just coming at things from different angles such that we're practically discussing two different things. It's not even that one way is invalid and the other way is 'right' - they're just such utterly different 'ways' that they become different topics/conversations, almost, and everyone has their own unique 'purpose' in the thread and there's no cohesion of intent/purpose.

    how could Fi users have discussed the issue of the Fi guide being "off" / not being up to snuff with the other guides without upsetting Fe users? imo, it being published makes it even more important to talk about. like peer review. but the more i read, the more it seems like Fe users think we just shouldn't discuss it, period. bringing in Fe really doesn't have anything to do with the accuracy of the Fe guide. it's about making a comparison between the two guides and noting how they're different.
    I know we discussed some of this outside the context of the threads, so don't want to repeat myself, but I really think we're (as in you and me individually, I shouldn't speak for Fe in general) just seeing a different 'purpose' in those threads and also you are focusing on how Fe/Fi are similar and can be contrasted, and I am focusing on the other side of the coin which is that in many ways they have zero business being compared and are nothing alike. And again, I guess I took at as an accepted Given that they are/would be different, because they ARE different. If they weren't different, they wouldn't be two separate functions. Cognitively they do very different things with very different 'goals'/purposes. I honestly don't think I can say anything else... we're just honing in on different aspects I think. This isn't meant at all to brush over your views and what you were trying to do in that thread - we just have very different aims and again are focusing on different elements.
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  7. #187
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    If I can step in a bit again...

    I'm still seeing some misunderstanding on this idea that Fi-users are being shut down when all they want to do is discuss ideas.

    This is also related to the miscommunication between the Fi-users and the non-Fi-users (I could say Fe-users, but it seems weird to call INTPs that for example).

    The Fi-users believe they are discussing ideas, though perhaps in a Fi-friendly language.

    The non-Fi-users don't see it that way. They see it as more self-absorbed complaining.

    In other words, the non-Fi-users simply don't recognize that there is any content to actually discuss, just complaints to fend off before another thread is ruined by them. Again, it really does come down to communication styles. Even when there is content, it will get passed over because "complaints" are more attention-getting.
    this is interesting to me as well. i was also wondering what was actually being discussed...but just assumed it was from threads i wasn't involved in...and maybe it is...but i've been trying to catch myself up and i'm still failing to see the actual issue.
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  8. #188
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    The Fi-users believe they are discussing ideas, though perhaps in a Fi-friendly language.

    The non-Fi-users don't see it that way. They see it as more self-absorbed complaining.

    In other words, the non-Fi-users simply don't recognize that there is any content to actually discuss, just complaints to fend off before another thread is ruined by them. Again, it really does come down to communication styles. Even when there is content, it will get passed over because "complaints" are more attention-getting.
    Hello Fe user!

    Are they really complaining or are they pointing out flaws in an idea? The idea happened to be a description-an idea- that they had an Fi disagreement with...they analyzed with Fi and found it flawed thus begin verbal discussion and dissection with Te about how to improve it??

  9. #189
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Yeah I’m going to have to echo this. I don’t know where the notion that Ti user personal identification is wrapped up in ideas is coming from. Like I said earlier [or maybe I didn’t? I can’t remember anymore] it’s far more the process than the idea itself.
    Sorry that may be my fault....a long time ago Sim said his ego was wrapped up in Ti...which I assumed meant ideas,

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Well, especially in a work situation, something like “this feels like the wrong idea” is completely useless information. The next question is inevitably “Why?” You might as well just say "Hmmm, have you considered a different platform upon which to base this application? Platform XYZ has a number of limitations that could inhibit our future development path, what else do you guys think we should explore" first.

    Ti users are always going to need reasons, deductions, steps. The existence of something, like a feeling or a value, doesn’t necessarily make it important to consider. Now, this is a far less useful stance to have interpersonally, which is where we have our issues. I suppose from a Ti point of view, translating things into “feeling” terms never seems like a good idea, so we never do it.
    I often find at work that I have to go dig up useless, error ridden, flawed market research studies to convince people to make a certain choice. I know the choice is correct as based upon my observations of customers, the market, the product and the needs, it "feels" right. However there must always be the useless data hunt-which wastes 20 to 50K each time.

    I often ran into this issue with the engineers I work with as well. During the first few placements of a new instrument I would mention there was an issue that needed investigation. They assumed it was a one-off and ignored me when I said "Have you considered it might be this?" I would watch the same problem crop up on ten or twelve more systems-compile mountains of paper, then go in and say "Umm, it might be that you should consider this." before they would take it seriously. After working with the same team for about five years, I no longer need the mountains of paper-I just say "This seems wrong" and they pay attention, as I have caught so many problems this way in the past-all by visceral gut feelings about how and what a problem may be or about the importance of a problem. I would suggest that Ti alone provides an incomplete data set that could be complemented by Fi analysis depending upon the complexity of the problem at hand and how people contaminated it is.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hello Fe user!

    Are they really complaining or are they pointing out flaws in an idea? The idea happened to be a description-an idea- that they had an Fi disagreement with...they analyzed with Fi and found it flawed thus begin verbal discussion and dissection with Te about how to improve it??
    Doesn't matter, the problem is in the perception.

    If you want my opinion though - there are ideas being discussed AND complaining.

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