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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #171
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    FTR, if I still believed in function theory I'd list myself as ENFP still, but I've decided to reject function theory in favor of Keirsey. These fabulous threads aided me in that important decision.

    *the rest edited out for fear of making Fi doms feel unsafe*

  2. #172
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yes, I admit I do struggle with naturally assertive people at times but assertiveness doesn't necessarily result in antagonistic behaviour, which is my real issue.
    It is very useful in life to develop the ability to distinguish between someone who is assertive and someone who is a big fat loud-mouth!
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  3. #173
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Another interesting post uumalau. I think that you should start a Ti-user/Fi-user discussion to try to further explore some of these points. When I learn such things about Ti, it makes me wonder how much I really understand it.

    Just to respond to some particular points (again with the compressing):
    So in reaction to a confusing Fi/Te perspective, the Ti/Fe user thinks, "That makes no sense to me" and it comes out as, "That's just crazy talk"? And they don't consider this an attack on them or their ideas?

    I confess I find this thought process rather baffling.

    Where does the terseness come from? Is it an expression of annoyance with a perceived Te rigid, "why don't you prove it", know-it-all-ness?

    The weird thing is that I rarely clash with Ti dom/auxs in real life over their bluntness and my stubborn beliefs, which makes me think this might be a result of the fact that the discussion is written and consequently, tone becomes interpretive.
    We should always keep this bolded point in mind.

    Part of my theme in THIS thread is that NFPs are responsible for making their own "safe place". Not by disengaging and PMing each other in private, but by acknowledging that maybe, just MAYBE, you might have misread the tone. Odds are, you have, especially if it's a poster you've read and agreed with many times before, when their words weren't directed at you.

    You think this is unlikely, perhaps, that you must have read the tone right? Guess what: they think they read YOUR initial statement(s) right! And you know they didn't.

    Fair enough. I do in fact tend to give people the benefit of the doubt in life. But I do recognise that many people simply don't care enough about others to check their behaviour and, for example, restrain themselves from making a inappropriate comment. My ISFP friend has a saying I really like: "a lot of people are nice but not necessarily kind".
    Good point. And an ongoing pattern of misbehavior should be addressed. But in this case, if it is simply just words and crosstalk, it probably isn't misbehavior.

    Oh, I agree. I don't wish to defend a position of "I'm nice to you as long as you're nice to me", nor that "lashing out at people is OK".

    What I meant was that it has been repeatedly implied that a rational, dispassionate discussions with NFPs about emotion-based subject matter is impossible; that NFPs getting emotional and taking things personally is somehow inevitable in every situation. In reality our intentions are to have detached discussion, sometimes even for the expressive purpose of helping the NTs to better understand us by speaking their language. It can feel like a slap in the face when they don't pay us the same respect and instead respond with such attacks (perceived or otherwise) and negativity.
    Here's where it gets funny. As an NT myself, and particularly as an INTJ, I express my respect for you by considering your point of view and replying to it. If I thought it didn't merit attention, I wouldn't enter the conversation in the first place. Yet if I didn't have a great many years of practice and focus on learning how to communicate, you'd perceive my words just as you perceive theirs. Thoughtless, hurtful, negative. Why? Because ill-phrased disagreement, with a complete absence of tone to make clear one's good intentions, feels hurtful and negative. NTs are used to being "rude" and "abrupt" with one another, though that rudeness and abruptness is more the incidental sound of ideas colliding into each other, with all parties interested in seeing what might appear on the other side. Once in a while, even as an NT, someone says something that gets my goat, so to speak. We have to deal with that same hurtfulness that you NFPs have to deal with - we've just had a lot of practice putting it to one side, because it comes with the territory.

    So when NFPs enter into the conversation, I fully understand that there's a good deal of harshness, but one should understand that it is largely incidental, unintended, and is backed by genuine disagreement/misunderstanding.

    I should point out that when I have difficulties with my ENFP love, I will discuss them to a degree over email, but after a certain point, I draw a boundary, and tell her that we need to discuss the matter in person. I am able to distinguish when there is nothing I might type into an email that can possibly send the message I want to send, that anything I do type will be misread, and leave her wondering, "How could he say such a thing?! Doesn't he understand how that makes me feel?" The thing is, I do understand, and I prove it to her every day. But text communication over email/forum/internet cannot send the full breadth and intent of my meaning. So I wait until I can see her again, and suddenly everything is all right. She knows I've heard her, that I put aside time to listen to her, and that any disagreement I might have with her is not a result of my being thoughtless or dismissive.

    Can the solution to this "safe environment" question simply be for NFPs to realize that text-based disagreement can sound thoughtless and dismissive, even though it really isn't, and wouldn't be heard as such, in person?

  4. #174
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I think that I can very much pick up on group mood as well as predict pretty well how each person is going to react to a given comment from someone else, and therefore how many threads are going to go down as a result.

    What I really *don't get*, though, is the implication that Fe users don't act 1:1. :confused: Now I'm kind of assuming, Orobas, that you're referring to something unique when it comes to 1:1, that Fi users do that you don't think Fe users do.... but for myself and other Fe users that I know, we operate very much on a 1:1 level. This is especially notable for introverts... in fact I would have been quicker to attribute a preference to 1:1 interaction/connection more to introversion than Fi. Can you elaborate?
    Sorry cascadeco, I didnt mean to imply Fe users dont form very deep interactions with others on a 1:1 basis. Proteo once described Fe as having concentric rings. As you go deeper in the rings you reach more and more emotional intimacy thus you you become very close to the Fe user? So it seems that Fe can form very beautiful 1:1 bonds.

    Think of Fi as being that innermost Fe circle-it is very black and white-you are in the circle or out. If I show kindness to you and share my emotional state of mind-you are in. However this puts me at huge emotional risk, because once in, you can hurt me very badly-I cant seem to expel people out of the Fi ring, once they pass the Te wall. I suspect this is my Fi being a bit immature though.

    For me-I cant pick up at all on group mood. I also dont see any natural flow in conversation or pick up on taking turns in a conversation. I dont see why others would need to be invited to speak-I automatically assume they will speak if they have questions. I have left rooms where my entp friend would comment about everyone being angry-I dont see it. I cant see groups.

    I do see individuals who are angry, frustrated or misunderstanding each other-things my ENTP misses. I dont need them to say anything-I pick up on really subtle eye movements or tone of voice. Even weirder, I can tell someone is angry or unhappy even if I am not even looking at them. I may catch a glimpse of them out of the corner of my eye-and it just registers as "wrong" or "off". It isnt Ne....it is Fi. Fi judged them via a very quick glimpse. It can then do the same thing with the next person, then the next person....but not two people at once. I have seen the INFPs call this reading auras. I suspect it is a very complex pattern matching thing that Fi does-just like an INTP will look at logic and innately have a visceral "wrong" response.

    I dont typically then insist I know what they feel-as that would be emotionally invasive-but I may try and offer help or alter my actions to account for the unspoken angst they seem to be feeling. I remold into something that is better suited to their needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Some very interesting stuff here, but I need to point out some stuff from the Ti perspective...when we say, "I think..." and "maybe," it's usually not because the ideas are so precious and personal that we don't want them messed with. It's because we are aware that there could be a big blind spot and lots of other data to consider that we might not be aware of. So the qualifiers are to say, "hey, I'm not saying this is the be-all, end-all right here. This idea is a work in progress, and there could be something I'm missing." Now, no one wants to look like an idiot, and INTPs in particular hate looking stupid. So there might be a bit of a personal element there, but I think in general, Ti likes to be given information that could make it better-informed. I think Te bugs Ti because we go, "How could you possibly know that for sure? How do you know you haven't missed something crucial?" Is this how Fi feels about Fe?
    My ENTP says everything you have said about Te. Fidelia asked about learning to speak the language of the other half. My entp and I have been trying this for the last two months of so. It sort of works but she feels like she is translating everything into "stupid, lazy people" speak, and I feel like I am being slimy and taking credit for others work. Some of the scariest enfps I know are those who have learned Fe speak-they do exceptionally well in their careers, but people are terrified of them. I dont want to be like them.

    Fe critique very often feels...condemnatory. There is something about Fi...When we externalize Fi we are offering up part of our soul-our self definition-our values (are these one and the same?) because we feel there is value in offering that opinion up because it may help others around us? We are putting ourselves on the line...putting ourselves at risk...as that risk is worth the benefit to the group or the individual in question?

    To be roughly rebutted by Fe or rejected without consideration-it feels like our offering was rejected outright-thus our Fi values/soul/self was rejected as flawed-we are thus flawed. To stand up and speak in the first place took a lot of guts, an intense visceral drive that the value was worth standing up for, that a fight was worth fighting. Perhaps there is some weird "boy cried wolf" thing going on for Fi. If I stand up for an Fi idea, it better be one I am damned sure is worth standing up for.

    Oddly, it is totally cool if a Te user says "I understand this is an unfortunate situation or seems unfair, but if you look at X, Y and Z, you can see we have to go forward due to logistical concerns." They can also raise questions about the implications of actions or the data we are basing our Fi value upon or even the action path we suggest...

    When there is a worthy Fi cause....NeFiTe can feel like a dynamo winding tighter and tighter, until there is no option but to stand up and address the pain of the other.

    (Perhaps ENTPs might feel the same about an idea or process they feel strongly about? I dunno...)

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Can the solution to this "safe environment" question simply be for NFPs to realize that text-based disagreement can sound thoughtless and dismissive, even though it really isn't, and wouldn't be heard as such, in person?
    It's also the responsibility of other people to cease deliberate provocation, and for the mods to warn about it when it becomes incessant. The NFP "hot button" is not hard to find, and some people seem obsessed with pressing it over and over again when NFP's engage in a discussion. It's ignorable to a point, then one can only extrapolate from repeated offenses that it's done with specific intention, that it's no oopsie-style accident.

    Where does one draw the line? Many people on the forum just shake their heads and dismiss provocative posts as ridiculous I know, but that doesn't make it OK. Does it?

    My gut feeling is that NFP's are hesitant to report posts ... we know we can be sensitive sometimes and so we already err on the side of the poster, believing that they didn't intend to be hurtful. NFP's, do you agree or see that differently?

    -----

    Ideas to help foster a safe environment are:

    1.) When anyone enters a thread and posts something such as, "Here we go again, another whiny, emo debate" - NFP's need to report this post, not ignore it, and the mods (hopefully) issue a warning to people who are trolling in this way. And it is trolling, no doubt about it.

    2.) When anyone enters a thread and attacks another member on a personal level - NFP's must report this post, not ignore it, and the mods (hopefully) issue a warning to people who are trolling in this way. And it is trolling, no doubt about it.

    3.) The rule of "walk away, just ignore it if you don't like it" works in two directions - NFP's can ignore little pokes from the Peanut's gallery (we can take a joke from time to time, believe it or not), and if you are a person who finds NFP-style nit-picking annoying, you can just walk away too. Think about what value your post adds, and if it adds nothing, take my grandmother's advice, "If you've got nothing intelligent to say, you should keep your mouth shut, 'cause I am sure as hell not interested in watching your gums flapping." (She didn't take guff from anyone.)

    -----

    What other suggestions would be helpful?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  6. #176
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I still think Ti is more obsessed with the integrity of the process of reasoning, not in the individual ideas themselves. The emotional investment (for INTPs, for example) seems to be more in the process (and their competence in it) than the exact outcome. I don't think you can say exactly the same thing about Fi and feeling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Yessssssss! Absolutely. I am tempted to embroider that on a throw pillow. It's definitely more about the process than the individual idea. There is integrity in the process. The product is ever-changing with updated data. The process is what will eventually get you there, hopefully with minimal detours.
    Yeah I’m going to have to echo this. I don’t know where the notion that Ti user personal identification is wrapped up in ideas is coming from. Like I said earlier [or maybe I didn’t? I can’t remember anymore] it’s far more the process than the idea itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That's exactly what I wish everyone realized when they see / hear it happen ... since I work with so many Ti people IRL, I always have to rephrase my feeling tone ("This feels like the wrong idea ...") to something like: "Hmmm, have you considered a different platform upon which to base this application? Platform XYZ has a number of limitations that could inhibit our future development path, what else do you guys think we should explore?"

    Ti users, at least in my experience, seem incapable of the opposite translation though. Ideas as to why are welcome ...
    Well, especially in a work situation, something like “this feels like the wrong idea” is completely useless information. The next question is inevitably “Why?” You might as well just say "Hmmm, have you considered a different platform upon which to base this application? Platform XYZ has a number of limitations that could inhibit our future development path, what else do you guys think we should explore" first.

    Ti users are always going to need reasons, deductions, steps. The existence of something, like a feeling or a value, doesn’t necessarily make it important to consider. Now, this is a far less useful stance to have interpersonally, which is where we have our issues. I suppose from a Ti point of view, translating things into “feeling” terms never seems like a good idea, so we never do it.



  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    My gut feeling is that NFP's are hesitant to report posts ... we know we can be sensitive sometimes and so we already err on the side of the poster, believing that they didn't intend to be hurtful. NFP's, do you agree or see that differently?
    yeah, i definitely hesitate to report things. because -
    1. i feel like in general things should be live and let live
    2. i don't want to bother the mods more than necessary
    3. i don't want to report something that isn't actually a concern and be written off as complaining all the time
    4. sometimes i don't have a very good read on whether the person meant to be provocative

    what confuses the shit out of me is that what i mistake to be pejorative comments aimed at me or others often turn out to be roundabout ways of attacking someone else entirely. i don't know if this is a Fe thing, but it's like someone's comment that cites me or involves me (or someone else) actually turns out not to be directed at me, because even though i was mentioned, the crux of the matter is apparently aimed at someone else. this has happened to me a few times now and i don't really understand how i'm supposed to know the difference.

    and i do know that there's a big difference between an emotionally-charged post that's not meant as an attack (eg my last response to proteanmix's post), and an emotionally-charged post that is meant as an attack, and i can easily tell the difference with Fi users, but a lot of times i can't tell the difference with Fe users. it's funny how clear the Fi pattern of aggression is - it's very reactionary - but Fe is so confusing to me. an offended Fi dom/aux just gets closer and closer and explodes. it's super obvious. and a Fi-Fi fight... it's like 3 minutes of yelling at one another really loudly then both people breaking down and crying and lots of hugs. it's kinda intense but it's very... well, easy. fast. things get out in the open, get healed. boom and done.

    an offended Fe dom/aux... like backs away and takes indirect potshots. i don't know how to identify it, and i don't know how to deal with it. i feel like Fe users want to silence and prolong conflict, when i'd rather just get it out into the open and address it and be done with it. and i don't want to escalate things but i feel like i always inadvertently do. help pls?

    --

    also... just cause it might have gotten lost in the sauce, there are a lot of posts going on here - my main question -

    how could Fi users have discussed the issue of the Fi guide being "off" / not being up to snuff with the other guides without upsetting Fe users? imo, it being published makes it even more important to talk about. like peer review. but the more i read, the more it seems like Fe users think we just shouldn't discuss it, period. bringing in Fe really doesn't have anything to do with the accuracy of the Fe guide. it's about making a comparison between the two guides and noting how they're different.

  8. #178
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Just to respond to some particular points (again with the compressing):
    So in reaction to a confusing Fi/Te perspective, the Ti/Fe user thinks, "That makes no sense to me" and it comes out as, "That's just crazy talk"? And they don't consider this an attack on them or their ideas?

    I confess I find this thought process rather baffling.

    Where does the terseness come from? Is it an expression of annoyance with a perceived Te rigid, "why don't you prove it", know-it-all-ness?
    I'm not sure who you are referring to when it comes to 'terseness', but I will say I think TiFe can just approach things in a very objective, rather detached manner -- removing the emotional content purposefully, with the goal of discussing the concept only, or dissecting things in a very detached way. The language no doubt comes across as 'terse' or harsh or whatever, to some, but in many cases it's simply out of an attempt to remove all emotional/personal elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To try to tackle this, Fi users tend to 'trust' people who allow them the freedom to have a different POV and not feel threatened by it, nor invalidate their feelings off the hop. They get a click of resonance, kind of hard to explain I guess. Fe is (to my thinking) more about finding people who support a POV ... and that is what makes the click happen for Fe users. Thus, ideas, ergo the process of reasoning, are less challenged? Fe users are already Fe-ing each other, using the right words, the right tones, and then tentatively passing the idea around to see if it is right or not. Agreement with ideas over time make the space safe for the initial bonds of friendship to form.

    I see it as Fi validate vs Fe support ... validate has more wiggle-room for a whole different bunch of opinions to exist within. What do you think?
    Expand on that for me ... what feels anxious for you here? Why do you feel that way posting this particular post? Dig into that, really turn it over and over ... and I would love for you to share any conclusions, even preliminary thoughts; it has great potential to add to this thread.
    I'm not sure. I think everyone, regardless of type, desires to have relationships in which they feel accepted and safe to be themselves, the less filtering the better (by that, I mean, the ability to be more open without worrying about presentation and being attacked for it).

    Now I myself, on this forum, and generally in day to day life, have a pretty high filter mechanism on -- I'm constantly adjusting my presentation and thinking about it based on who I am interacting with. I think this is one significant element of Fe. There are positives and negatives associated with this in terms of building relationships - positive being that incidence of conflict/misunderstanding is fairly minimal, negative is that my unedited self rarely sees the light of day. I mean this doesn't exactly bother me - I've said many times on here that I don't see my method of communication as something tied to 'Me' - it's more my ideas/the content itself, so changing the words around doesn't bother me at all. But all of it - the focus on presentation - leads to generalized anxiety. Did I word that the right way so as to not rub him the wrong way? Did I phrase it properly such that everyone will understand? etc. Or on the other hand, are my thoughts totally off base such that I'm spewing nonsense and am totally not factoring in an element or viewpoint that I should be? (I can be anxious at the possibility of being wrong/incorrect - missing something, anything) Wanting to 'solve' for everything ahead of time - to avoid conflict/misunderstanding - creates the anxiety because as everyone knows, it's an impossible task - you can't control the other person nor really 'know', for sure, what the outcome will be.

    Also I have to say... I pretty much always nod my head in agreement with whatever proteanmix writes, and I commend her for putting herself out there time and time again - she's more 'real' with fewer filters than I. I think she is misread/misunderstood constantly by Fi's. She is 'attacked' just as much for her true expression of thoughts - her FeTi way of communicating - as Fi-ers are 'attacked' for their use of FiNe. Now. Is she *really* being attacked? No, I don't think so. But, just as the purpose of this thread was to discuss Fi-er's feeling of safety in communicating in their own way, and whether or not they feel safe and accepted to do so, the reactions to protean's posting style from non-Fe'ers demonstrates rather the same phenomenon - protean's FeTi ruffles many peoples' feathers, just as FiTe ruffles others.

    As to who I trust, you may be right - at least when it comes to myself and my really close friends - re. trusting those who tend to agree with my thoughts. I want to explain that a bit more, though. I think for me it is because since my thoughts/ideas are so tied to who I am, if the person really doesn't agree with them, then I see it as a disconnect. They don't jive with ME. It's not that I even don't respect their differing ideas - because I do tend to appreciate different ideas - but I'll likely not deepen the relationship or see it as something that is reconcilable. I also want to say that when it comes to thoughts/ideas, it's not even so much that I have solid unbending thoughts/ideas - as I'm quite agnostic when it comes to many things and I can see many perspectives so am unable to 'lock' into just one -- it's more, for me, trusting in those who are 'ok' with this unsolidity within myself, and my friends tend to be ones who look at things from many different angles as well, without locking into one as the absolutely right way -- I think it is why I end up being closest to fellow Ni-ers, with a couple of dom-Ne'ers thrown in.

    Another thing I'm recalling that may be relevant -- I remember coming across a thread awhile ago on here about an ISFP who was trying to get over a relationship with an INFJ and he not understanding what went wrong. The ISFP was basically saying that she'd share her problems/thoughts, and that while he didn't really 'get'/understand why she thought the way she did, he totally, 100% could empathize with the feelings that she had. But that didn't meet her needs at all, and I could relate. I ended up posting, and saying that ultimately, while it's not that I would want my friend/boyfriend to go, 'Your feelings are retarded, snap out of it' (lol), the fact that they relate to my feelings means zilch to me if they don't understand why I feel the way I do, and really understand my thoughts and the situation itself. I don't want to discuss the feelings - I want to discuss everything else, basically, so that I can get out of my feelings and put them behind me. So let's go straight to finding a solution to the situation!! It's all well and good if you can relate to my emotions, but that's not really what makes me feel understood/accepted, at all - it's my mind/thoughts that are that basis for connecting, and a sharing and acceptance of this internal world. But honestly - again, isn't this the case for every human being? We all desire that deep understanding and acceptance of our inner selves. Unconditional love and all that jazz.

    @bold: You make a great point, and obvious too, but what else the point, then, to make 8 threads? If for reference only, why not all 8 guides in one thread, as 8 distinct posts? Each having a thread was like an invitation, in my mind. Else, to just say - thanks - or, wow great guides? Saying that an aspect stood out as problematic is as valid a construct as praising them; in fact, both positions need to be received with an element of skepticism. How is it then, that agreement is easily accepted but criticism not?
    8 threads would have been more readable/ user-friendly than all in one, and yeah, again, I viewed it as more a presentation of information. Me, personally.. I didn't see much use in criticizing, just given the nature that they were already published and all of that - so I commented on the points of Fe that usually ruffle my own feathers because I don't relate to them, but I didn't criticize the fact that they were in the guide because they ARE an aspect of the definition of Fe.

    Everything hit the fan the minute the Fe and Fi guides began to be compared/contrasted to one another. As I posted in those threads, that didn't even make sense to me, given the differing nature of the functions. They're two separate functions - they SHOULD be different. The bulk of the criticism in the Fi thread was when it was compared to Fe - the Fi guide was criticized against itself - on its own ball field - by maybe a few posters - but most of the posts involved bringing the Fe bullet points into the picture. Had that not happened, I think things would have gone WAY better. I realize though why that happened - but, given the fact that it happened, the demise of both became kind of inevitable and they careened away.
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  9. #179
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Yeah I’m going to have to echo this. I don’t know where the notion that Ti user personal identification is wrapped up in ideas is coming from. Like I said earlier [or maybe I didn’t? I can’t remember anymore] it’s far more the process than the idea itself.
    Excellent; thanks for the confirmation, great stuff to ponder. It's like the difference between "feeling tones" and "emotion" - there are "logic paths" and "ideas" - separate, distinct, yet connected. (Or something like that - refinement requested.)


    Well, especially in a work situation, something like “this feels like the wrong idea” is completely useless information. The next question is inevitably “Why?” You might as well just say "Hmmm, have you considered a different platform upon which to base this application? Platform XYZ has a number of limitations that could inhibit our future development path, what else do you guys think we should explore" first.
    Eureka! You've struck gold here Jock - @bold: but it's NOT useless information, see? That feeling tone is what leads me to investigate, thus is not useless after all. I couldn't be good at my work otherwise, and I am not an INTP, but I still can deduce, with those silly feeling tones, things that will work or not work. Fascinating, eh? They lead me to create a translated verbal construct that I know my Ti coders can handle ...

    That's what we Fi-ers object to ... we object to your assertion that the feeling is "completely useless information" - I am not going to expect you to see it like I see it, but just trust me that we are going somewhere interesting, somewhere where your Ti skills can help shape a wondrous construct upon which all the nuances are fleshed out in beautiful, crystal-clear, logical detail.

    Ti users are always going to need reasons, deductions, steps. The existence of something, like a feeling or a value, doesn’t necessarily make it important to consider. Now, this is a far less useful stance to have interpersonally, which is where we have our issues. I suppose from a Ti point of view, translating things into “feeling” terms never seems like a good idea, so we never do it.
    Yes, maybe translating is wrong, and maybe that task, being some kind of universal translator, is going to be in the NFP's laps whether we like that or not. Because I wouldn't say it the same way to the Te-ers either, I would have one or two solutions ready to go for them, and to the Fe-ers, I would emphasize the human component of how each solution would hold up from a usability POV.

    BUT, just help us take that feeling, and trust there's a reason for us to have it, and go exploring with us. Help ask some questions, like, "What part of the description most feels off to you?" or "Were there some parts that felt right?" That's how we can hone in and find the hidden treasure. Because it WAS in that thread, at least I came to a deeper understanding of the functions, and maybe that seems obvious to other people, but it was fresh for me and thus valuable.

    Ahh, come over here, I wanna give you a - thank you for your post.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #180
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco
    They're two separate functions - they SHOULD be different. The bulk of the criticism in the Fi thread was when it was compared to Fe - the Fi guide was criticized against itself - on its own ball field - by maybe a few posters - but most of the posts involved bringing the Fe bullet points into the picture. Had that not happened, I think things would have gone WAY better.
    but they shouldn't have been different, not in terms of the format and the way they were treated.

    if you have parallel guides, and you talk about the process of Fe, you shouldn't talk about the results of Fi - you should talk about its process, too. and if you present Fe in a neutral-positive light, you should also present Fi in a neutral-positive light. it's not because the two are the same. it's because they both fall under the heading of "functions", and as such should be treated with some general similarities. this is what Fi does. we seek internal consistency. we're looking inside the category of functional guides by haas and noticing that they are not internally consistent.

    the Fe guide was used as proof of why the Fi guide was off. it was a demonstration. it had nothing to do with questioning the Fe guide itself - i for one thought the Fe guide was awesome (and you can see my first comment under it saying so). i suspect that the derailing of the Fe thread was a completely inadvertent mistake - Fe conversation runs differently than Fi conversation. if you'd come into the Fi thread and note that the Fe guide was really off in comparison - and it differed significantly - i would totally want to discuss it. i assume that whoever went into the Fe thread to comment would have felt the same and expected the same response. we assume that everyone wants to stop and assess things that might be wrong.

    why can't we compare and contrast, after all? that's part of the reason the functions are so interesting. they overlap in certain places and in certain ways. the guides treated Fi and Fe like there was no overlap whatsoever. but there is. first of all, out of all the countless objects and ideas and things that could ever exist even theoretically in the universe, all of the countless tiny insects and the myriad twinkling stars that fade into the depths of space and every single one of the individual grains of sand in the sahara and the millions upon billions infinitesimal particles that make up each and every thing, Fi and Fe are both narrowed down all the way to theoretical psychological jungian cognitive functions. and not just that, but they're both Judging functions. AND they're Feeling-Judging functions. think of how extraordinarily narrowed down that is! in the context of the cosmos, Fi and Fe are infinitely alike. they're only so very different when you look at them under a microscope.

    to ignore those similarities is as much a mistake as to ignore their differences. it's that whole "separate but equal" argument that american people made for segregation - it doesn't work. there's no denying that black people and white people are different. of course we are. we have different genetics. and there's no denying that Fe and Fi work somewhat differently. but they still fall into the same category and should be treated on an equal level.

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