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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #161
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I totally get that. Note that this is how Fi talks about "feelings."

    As for "not because the ideas are so precious and personal that we don't want them messed with," from what I've observed, it is that while there is a fear of looking stupid, the real value is a need to "be reasonable." That's where it gets personal. Other people being unreasonable or illogical or what have you, seems to be innately offensive to Ti, such that it is for all intents and purposes taken as a personal affront. (Not that it is felt as such, but it is shunned/rejected as such.)

    That's what Fi is doing when other people are "being mean." Fi often tends to value tolerance, acceptance ... for lack of a better word, "niceness." So just the same way Ti gets riled and snippy when others are perceived as being unreasonable or illogical, Fi gets riled up when others are perceived as being mean, intolerant, etc.

    My main point, in terms of the personal, is that it's almost instinctive, to the point that one wonders why it isn't obvious to others.
    So true. For Fi dom/aux, tolerance and acceptance are among the most central of our universal values (if I dare use that term ).

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Ok, here's a genuine point I'd like to raise here: I keep seeing it being stated that Fe users have this group support for POV, and it's stated in an almost resentful tone of of THEM VS. ME...but here's the part I don't understand...if "Me" is so comfortable with having a seperate Fi morality, then why do you even want validation by the group?

    And what makes you think that so-called Fe'ers have the support of EVERYONE on the forum, because surely they don't. The board can be observed to be have an overall cohesive whole of members of different types who are more well-known, and then can be broken down further into smaller groups of friends or like-minded people...what some people call "cliques"...and that overall cohesive whole isn't Fe dominant, and all of those "cliques" aren't made up of only Fe'ers, either.

    Why isn't it enough for Fi people to be validated by other Fi'ers? Why do they even want the validation of Fe'ers? That makes no sense to me.

    For example, the mods are a group of people who have a particular code of ethics they'd all like for us to follow. Some of those mods are FPs. Still, they represent a like-minded group, and it's perfectly obvious that not everyone on this board is going to "validate" their sense of morality, evidenced by the rash of threads in protest to various bannings.

    I know I look for support from others, and I could never quite figure out if that was because I was an extrovert, because I had Fe, or simply because I'm an NF. Maybe it's just because I'm human!

    I don't know if you understand what I'm driving at here, but it appears to me that Fi'ers want some kind of group support or validation, and it's apparently not enough for you to have the support and validation of other self-professed Fi'ers? Isn't that kind of counter-intuitive of the entire basic nature of the value system of Fi?

    It's not like anyone is getting banned or infracted for expressing their views on Fi. I feel that for the most part I've had pretty free reign to express myself on this forum.
    I'm not sure where you are seeing this and don't completely understand what you're getting at. Perhaps you are extrapolating too much from our complaints.

    It is nice to be valued and to know someone feels the same way you do about things but I don't desire that any more than most people do. We want simple respect and acceptance for ourselves, and all others for that matter - not frequent pats on the back from Fe-users or for them to relinquish their beliefs and completely adhere to ours to make us feel whole. We don't expect special treatment, we just want to engage with others without being shot down so much.

    And I don't see that having a different perspective in life and participation in society as being mutually exclusive.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    So true. For Fi dom/aux, tolerance and acceptance are among the most central of our universal values.


    I'm not sure where you are seeing this and don't completely understand what you're getting at. Perhaps you are extrapolating too much from our complaints.

    It is nice to be valued and to know someone feels the same way you do about things but I don't desire that any more than most people do. We want simple respect and acceptance for ourselves, and all others for that matter - not frequent pats on the back from Fe-users or for them to relinquish their beliefs and completely adhere to ours to make us feel whole. We don't expect special treatment, we just want to engage with others without being shot down so much.

    And I don't see that having a different perspective in life and participation in society as being mutually exclusive.
    Well you're demanding it from NTs, though, whose natural style is to be more rationally argumentative and to force you to prove your argument. By asking for "validation" for your Fi from NTs specifically, you're asking them to also change themselves. Do you see? It's one thing to expect not to be outwardly stalked, harrassed, or excessively trolled, but on the other hand you can't expect NTs to act like NFs just because you want them to, especially if they're random people on the forum and not your dad or best friend or significant other.

    I'm also going to point out YET AGAIN that it was pretty disrespectful for Fi users to go into the Fe thread, tearing it down, and then complaining that they get no respect themselves. MacGuffin and several others have attempted to point out what should be blatantly obvious, but several people in this thread insist on keeping a blind spot about because they're so determined to stay in a victim role.

    I think IxFPs in general may have an overall feeling of being "shot down" because of IxxP interaction style, which is interestingly the same as ISFJ interaction style, not because of Fi. You don't assert yourselves so perhaps feel personally attacked by other people who are more naturally assertive...and that would include people with ExxJ and IxxJ temperaments, though not necessarily all Fe'ers.

  3. #163
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    PB, there's a lot that could be responded to in your response, but one thing that stood out was what you said about Ti users feeling that translation into Fi language is impossible.

    I don't know if that is actually true for sure yet, as I'm only beginning to understand at what point our assumptions about many things diverge and consequently how to communicate differently. I've written many Fi users asking for advice or ideas in how to communicate more effectively and mostly gotten the response that everyone is different, they can't speak for anyone else, Fi values are all unique to the individual etc. If you ask a Fe/Ti user what works better for them, they'd be only too happy to tell you (as others have expressed about the Fe hammer, where we keep saying the same thing over and over more forcefully because it appears to be ignored and we are trying to give out warnings that seem to be going unheeded. The warnings are not, "We're going to stifle you if you don't do what we say", but rather more along the lines of, "I can guarantee that people of my ilk are going to write you off if you approach this in X way. Try this instead if you want to be heard by them". I understand that to a Fi user that seems unfair, but it is pretty up front if they do want to learn to translate.)

    Because Fi is not an extroverted function, they are less likely to be prescriptive in the same way as Fe/Ti users on how a topic is approached or who will be considered credible, simply because that is not how it works in Fi world. So for a Fe user who requests help in doing this better, their main way to seek it is by asking questions about the parts they don't understand. To a Fi user, it seems they find this probing feels demanding, much like we do when Te does that with an idea for us. It seems almost fake and condescending and unnatural for us to use Fi feeling language. I would feel like that would be the message being read in by the Fi user if I started uncharacteristically communicating in that way. Fe users who want to get better at translating almost need to spend more time in one on one or very small group situations, which is where Fi shines. Otherwise, the Fe consensus trying to find something that works for the most people possible tends to kick in. Finally, just as many Ti users would be hard pressed to give you a step by step guide for what to say exactly that would help them to see you as credible, many Fi users also are reticent to do so or unsure of how to go about giving Fe/Ti users help in this area. It's more knowing what is right or what isn't, than being able to explain why for most people.

    I've got to say that I did indeed laugh out loud at that illustrating about the person standing up and shouting about a ridiculous personal problem. This is exactly how it does look to us from time to time and it's why I think the more you can articulate and fill in the parts that don't make sense for us, the more understanding and voice you will find available to you on the forum. This doesn't mean that you don't have the right to be who you are if you can't explain the whole thing. It just means that it's a constant stretch for people to see things from that perspective and see it as valid if they don't know what premise it is based on or how it works. This process of explaining sonar vs radar and then detailing what features sonar has is helpful. Then we can compare it for ourselves to what we have with radar and see that both have different but useful features.

  4. #164
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I know I look for support from others, and I could never quite figure out if that was because I was an extrovert, because I had Fe, or simply because I'm an NF. Maybe it's just because I'm human!

    I don't know if you understand what I'm driving at here, but it appears to me that Fi'ers want some kind of group support or validation, and it's apparently not enough for you to have the support and validation of other self-professed Fi'ers? Isn't that kind of counter-intuitive of the entire basic nature of the value system of Fi?
    Obviously Fi types are human also and pretty much every human desires some connection/understanding from others. Mostly what was/is being asked for is to be HEARD without unfair dismissal, not agreed with. "Validation" really just means extending some respect towards a person's view as worthy of consideration. It's engaging in a real discussion that addresses the posters' points instead of claiming the poster's points are invalid based purely on type or different communication style. This means some accommodation of different communication style is necessary on both parties' part (and was MBTI not created to aid in understanding that people think differently & that one manner is not superior to the other?). That's really what is being desired.

    Really, this has to do with the Fi+Pe style, which is as much about exploring ideas as feelings. It's a validation of a process as legit, not to seek approval on every idea or feeling. If anything, I think NFPs like to brainstorm in a group way at times, tossing ideas about to see where they go. Despite what some think, I think many FPs are highly aware of the subjective quality of their feelings, and exploring them with others can help refine them so they are not "in a bubble". I guess the line is drawn by asserting that the feeling can not nor should not be deemed wrong by another person, but that the interpretation of it may need polishing or guidance. In the thread in question, initially there was some feeling-out with other FPs on whether the vibe that the author was biased was indeed a correct hunch; turns out the hunch was at least right as far as the author being INFJ. If not, other possibilities may have been sought out to define this "off feeling" many of the IFPs had (and many possibilities were discussed, actually, until the main flaw emerged - that "crux" I spoke of before). Instead of someone stomping the feeling and saying, "No, it's wrong & irrational & you're just ridiculous", a better approach is to offer another suggestion: "Maybe it's not X that is giving you that feeling, but Y?". Really, it was Pe looking for feedback to unearth why it felt "wrong"....Ne is an important process to giving voice & shape to Fi in NFPs. Being extroverted, it works well when communicating with other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.H. Van der hoop - The Introvert of Feeling Type
    Where intuition is developed, it is of great assistance in finding expression for introverted feeling, both in practical life and in art.
    I suppose this is why the NTP dismissal is always puzzling to me; why the uptightness about discussing ideas in a heavier way? If anything, it just emphasizes a philosophical aspect of Fi that I might have erroneously attributed to Ne before....I mean, the ISFPs get it .
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #165
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Well you're demanding it from NTs, though, whose natural style is to be more rationally argumentative and to force you to prove your argument. By asking for "validation" for your Fi from NTs specifically, you're asking them to also change themselves. Do you see? It's one thing to expect not to be outwardly stalked, harrassed, or excessively trolled, but on the other hand you can't expect NTs to act like NFs just because you want them to, especially if they're random people on the forum and not your dad or best friend or significant other.
    See here's where I beg to differ. I don't think that NTs are naturally obnoxious; often blunt and matter of fact, yes - but not necessarily unpleasantly so. Calling them out on inappropriate behaviour is not asking them to change who they are, beyond that of what common politeness demands. I believe basic courtesy to others is a human value, not a NF value.

    I'm also going to point out YET AGAIN that it was pretty disrespectful for Fi users to go into the Fe thread, tearing it down, and then complaining that they get no respect themselves. MacGuffin and several other have attempted to point out what should be blatantly obvious, but several people in this thread insist on keeping a blind spot about because they're so determined to stay in a victim role.
    Agreed. I also do not approve of such behaviour and did not personally engage in it.

    I think IxFPs in general may have an overall feeling of being "shot down" because of IxxP interaction style, which is interestingly the same as ISFJ interaction style, not because of Fi. You don't assert yourselves so perhaps feel personally attacked by other people who are more naturally assertive...and that would include people with ExxJ and IxxJ temperaments, though not necessarily all Fe'ers.
    Yes, I admit I do struggle with naturally assertive people at times but assertiveness doesn't necessarily result in antagonistic behaviour, which is my real issue.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Obviously Fi types are human also and pretty much every human desires some connection/understanding from others. Mostly what was/is being asked for is to be HEARD without unfair dismissal, not agreed with. "Validation" really just means extending some respect towards a person's view as worthy of consideration. It's engaging in a real discussion that addresses the posters' points instead of claiming the poster's points are invalid based purely on type or different communication style. This means some accommodation of different communication style is necessary on both parties' part (and was MBTI not created to aid in understanding that people think differently & that one manner is not superior to the other?). That's really what is being desired.

    Really, this has to do with the Fi+Pe style, which is as much about exploring ideas as feelings. It's a validation of a process as legit, not to seek approval on every idea or feeling. If anything, I think NFPs like to brainstorm in a group way at times, tossing ideas about to see where they go. Despite what some think, I think many FPs are highly aware of the subjective quality of their feelings, and exploring them with others can help refine them so they are not "in a bubble". I guess the line is drawn by asserting that the feeling can not nor should not be deemed wrong by another person, but that the interpretation of it may need polishing or guidance. In the thread in question, initially there was some feeling-out with other FPs on whether the vibe that the author was biased was indeed a correct hunch; turns out the hunch was at least right as far as the author being INFJ. If not, other possibilities may have been sought out to define this "off feeling" many of the IFPs had (and many possibilities were discussed, actually, until the main flaw emerged - that "crux" I spoke of before). Instead of someone stomping the feeling and saying, "No, it's wrong & irrational & you're just ridiculous", a better approach is to offer another suggestion: "Maybe it's not X that is giving you that feeling, but Y?". Really, it was Pe looking for feedback to unearth why it felt "wrong"....Ne is an important process to giving voice & shape to Fi in NFPs. Being extroverted, it works well when communicating with other people.



    I suppose this is why the NTP dismissal is always puzzling to me; why the uptightness about discussing ideas in a heavier way? If anything, it just emphasizes a philosophical aspect of Fi that I might have erroneously attributed to Ne before....I mean, the ISFPs get it .
    What exactly did you want from others? I am not being facetious. I am being sincere when I say how exactly did you expect others to behave or react? What exactly was so collectively dismissive that it would make people feel "unsafe" particularly now that every NFs favorite member has been perma-banned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    See here's where I beg to differ. I don't think that NTs are naturally obnoxious; often blunt and matter of fact, yes - but not necessarily unpleasantly so. Calling them out on inappropriate behaviour is not asking them to change who they are, beyond that of what common politeness demands. I believe basic courtesy to others is a human value, not a NF value.
    Well, I tend to think of MacGuffin as reasonably polite. Then again, I also think Edgar is actually quite polite when he's being serious. Are you specifically complaining about Jaguar being an exceedingly direct ENTJ? Are you upset by people in general who may take a joking or teasing tone when they disagree?

    Some people think that dancing around what they see as the truth is polishing a turd, so they will come out with it, harsh as it may sound. Were there really THAT MANY NTs - not just one or two - who were recently being excessively hostile or obnoxious?

  7. #167
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    What exactly did you want from others? I am not being facetious. I am being sincere when I say how exactly did you expect others to behave or react? What exactly was so collectively dismissive that it would make people feel "unsafe" particularly now that every NFs favorite member has been perma-banned.


    That's been discussed in the thread extensively already; my previous posts detailed what was "dismissive" specifically in the recent thread in question, and my last post spelled out what was/is desired.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #168
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    So you wanted people to say maybe it's Y not X giving you this feeling...but what if people have no idea why you're saying it, or have their own ideas ...in fact I saw people express multiple times, these people including self-typed FPs, that they thought you guys were getting too hung up on details, that you were getting this feeling not because the definition was wrong but because you were perceiving it to be more negative than it actually was AND/OR taking too many of the statements to heart, expecting them all to fit you AND/OR thinking in specifics rather than generalities.

    People did make those kinds of statements, as I recall.

  9. #169
    A window to the soul
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    Ladies and gentleman please step back from the mic. Please.
    This is "Water off a duck's back," remember? Kiddie pool stuff.

    Marm, I luv ya to death girl, you're witty clever, but come on, sometimes you're way off. OrangeAppled clearly stated her 'wants' in paragraph 1. I gringed cringed when I read your reply. (Please see the paragraph quoted below.)

    When reading this thread I even more appreciate all of your different perspectives. I see the raw emotion and sincerity behind the words; good or bad. Even the honest misunderstandings that spark further heated discussions.

    I just don't see where anybody is really trying to insult or offend here, but then who am I to minimize your feelings?

    For everyone, sometimes it takes swallowing a little pride to see the heart... yeah, it took me forever to see the heart <3. :redface: If you'll take time to see it, I promise you, it's there...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Obviously Fi types are human also and pretty much every human desires some connection/understanding from others. Mostly what was/is being asked for is to be HEARD without unfair dismissal, not agreed with. "Validation" really just means extending some respect towards a person's view as worthy of consideration. It's engaging in a real discussion that addresses the posters' points instead of claiming the poster's points are invalid based purely on type or different communication style. This means some accommodation of different communication style is necessary on both parties' part (and was MBTI not created to aid in understanding that people think differently & that one manner is not superior to the other?). That's really what is being desired.
    Last edited by A window to the soul; 12-01-2010 at 06:10 PM.

  10. #170
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    So you wanted people to say maybe it's Y not X giving you this feeling...but what if people have no idea why you're saying it, or have their own ideas ...in fact I saw people express multiple times, these people including self-typed FPs, that they thought you guys were getting too hung up on details, that you were getting this feeling not because the definition was wrong but because you were perceiving it to be more negative than it actually was AND/OR taking too many of the statements to heart, expecting them all to fit you AND/OR thinking in specifics rather than generalities.

    People did make those kinds of statements, as I recall.
    I only recall two FPs who had no problem with the guide....you, who seem to not be FP now, and Mystic Tater. I actually did address Tater's post directly.

    It was fine for others to express a different view, but once it was acknowledged & disagreed with, to continue to harp on it with no further point when the discussion has moved past it already just seems snarky, dismissive & even disruptive. It also appears the long, thoughtful posts made explaining the FPs' reasons in detail were not considered, as evidenced by failure to quote or refer to their points.

    You're also confusing ideas with feelings here. There was a dismissal of the FPs' feelings based on assumption & bias, and an inaccurate surmise and/or total unacknowledgment of the ideas attempting to explain the feelings expressed; this approach attributed views to the FPs which were not being expressed by most, if any. Eventually, the crux of the FPs' complaints came out (which was the goal), but was conveniently ignored, probably because it's true.

    It seems clear you still don't understand what the real complaint was (the "crux"), and are not going to explore this thread to find out. I'm not going to reiterate everything I've detailed in past posts though.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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