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[Fi] INFP/ENFP: Do you feel "safe" to openly & freely share your thoughts about Fi here?

Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 60.6%
  • No

    Votes: 13 39.4%

  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .

Lady_X

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Yes. To put it bluntly, the disproportionate share of the burden falls on the Fi-user. It's not that Fi is to be ignored, as you said to FineLine, but that better translation is needed. Otherwise this subject becomes a broken record, repeating ad nauseam.

I'm going to swipe a quote from another thread:



Which is the easiest function to understand? Which is the hardest? Te annoys me at times, but there is little mistaking the message. Fi, on the other hand, is the opposite. Very hard to understand. Not only is it subjective, but it's concern is the ethical rather than the logical. It can make brillant sense to the Fi-user, and even to someone in a one-on-one discussion, but in a larger sense it quickly become noise and the message is lost.

does it? omg it sounds like noise to non fi users? that's a funny thing to be made aware of.
 

Lady_X

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haha!! well i didn't think it was! still...it sounds like charlie browns parents doesn't it?

and reaaally? a wikipedi link? haha...oh god...
 

Southern Kross

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I find both to be rather transparent to be frank. I can usually pick up when Fi doms are pissed/ annoyed/ out of the ordinary... you just have to be attuned to what to look for (the subtlety in the tone, becoming rigid in speech, deflecting, becoming extra quiet, the vibe seems forced....). To be honest, I have never found Fi to be all that mysterious much like the other functions. It's highly personalized so you have to get to know the person on very personal level to know some of their core values. Sorry, I am not trying to be rude. It's just that I had to learn many of the subtle hints so that I would not offend IXFPs that were close to me and learn how to build their egos back up when someone hurt them. I took on the role of "emotional care-taker" a lot.
Oh if you know what to look for it you can spot it - most people don't bother to pay enough attention. But honestly, I behave like that in a bunch of situations with completely different emotions involved. Boredom/embarrassment/distraction/tiredness/uneasiness can all look like irritation.

I didn't mean to sound like I'm special and mysterious. I just find others make incorrect assumptions about me all the time and struggle to properly read me. People are always asking me if I'm upset when I'm not in the least, for example.
 

Lauren

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Oh if you know what to look for it you can spot it - most people don't bother to pay enough attention. But honestly, I behave like that in a bunch of situations with completely different emotions involved. Boredom/embarrassment/distraction/tiredness/uneasiness can all look like irritation.

I didn't mean to sound like I'm special and mysterious. I just find others make incorrect assumptions about me all the time and struggle to properly read me. People are always asking me if I'm upset when I'm not in the least, for example.

Oh, exactly. I was thinking about this today. I recently appeared to be irritated to a friend (who later apologized because he felt I was irritated at him) when I really wasn't--in this case it was uneasiness and distraction about something else.
 
G

Glycerine

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Sorry for coming off like an ass... that's why I deleted the post. The thing I have learned to do is ask something very low key if I think someone is upset like, "Are you tired.... you seem a little out of it?" or "how are you doing?" Then, they will usually tell me the real problem.
 

Southern Kross

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Sorry for coming off like an ass... that's why I deleted the post. The thing I have learned to do is ask something very low key if I think someone is upset like, "Are you tired.... you seem a little out of it?" or "how are you doing?" Then, they will usually tell me the real problem.
You didn't. I knew what you meant.

Sometimes just asking those sorts of questions people will open up about a problem they're having even if its not what is directly bothering them right then. Often people are simply waiting for someone to care enough to ask about them - it breaks down the barrier.

I often smile and joke even when I'm feeling depressed. Most of the time, its only if you know what sorts of things bother me that you can guess that I may be upset. Its like you said, very dependent on the knowing the individual well.
 

Scott N Denver

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quoting PB: "Your whole post is appreciated Scott. I hear what you are saying above, and it's very wise, maybe the wisest thing in the whole thread but I just wonder ... I know you feel stressed and aggravated by not being understood, don't you want to try to help bridge the gap too? Don't you think that greater appreciation and understanding could lead to more contentment for you?"

PB, is the point of this thread to defend Fi in the eyes of non Fi-ers, or to discuss Fi amongst other Fi-users? If it is the first, one can see in all that ton of stuff I quoted several values and contributions of Fi. Fi tends to bring various things to the table, including a focus on other people, what they are feeling, and WHY they are feeling that. Anybody can stand off at a distance and blat platitudes about wishing well, but when you want or need someone to jump in the trench with you, I think Fi tends to excel there. Need to understand WHY you are feeling what your feeling? Well we reign supreme there. Feel psychologically or emotionally damaged and need someone to show you the way back into the light to heal yourself, well we do that well too [NFJ's can as well, in a different more Ni-ish kind of way]. Need someone to feel motivated enough to start, or sustain, a charity or volunteer organization? Especially one no one has done before, well were good at that too. Wanna see people act out of a motivation of respect and compassion, we tend to naturally do that as well.

If our purpose is the latter, to talk about Fi with fellow Fi-ers, then let us do so. Perhaps we were doing so earlier... What are examples of other people's Fi values? How did those values develop? If you were to hazard a guess at how they might continue to develop in the future, what would you guess? What Fi values of others have really just stopped you in your tracks and humbled you in your core?

Both Princess Diana [deceased] of the UK, and former US president JFK's wife Jackie Kennedy Onassis were INFP's, in the limelight, and had a profound influence on many people. Try google searching "famous INFP's" the list is pretty interesting [though not guaranteed to be correct] Here is one such list.


IME, people often either liek me or not. If you asked them attributes that they liked about me, Fi values would probably emerge pretty quickly. However, I doubt that any/few of these people would know enough to say "Fi!" on the spot. Relationships work better when both people have open hearts. I can't make other people open their hearts. IME Te often places little or no value on the things so near and dear to Fi. I doubt I will be able to convince many TJ's, especially NTJ's, to change their mind on that one. Goodness, I barely feel any success at all at getting the NFJ's on this forum to understand, respect, appreciate, or otherwise Fi. Maybe I have some and they just haven't especially told me about it??? Anyways, its not my aim to "turn people" into respecting Fi. The best I can probably do is to get people who meet me in person to respect me in terms of the Fi values I operate out of.
 
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Glycerine

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Scott. I do respect Fi... but how long do we have to beat the dead horse about Fi? That is the golden question. To be honest, I found you and your posts to be quite intriguing (in a non-creepy way). Every function has problems in society. In some ways, Ne outshines Ni and and in very individualist societies, I think that Fi is secretly valued and Fe is mocked. I have had SO MANY people tell me don't worry about what others think and that's just my nature. It all depends on perspective and context.
 

Fidelia

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I'm thinking about something skylights said earlier (was it this thread or the other one?). Do you feel that when Fi senses others distancing themselves, it tends to either try to spark some reaction to get to the bottom of things or pursue connection more vigorously?

Something she said made me wonder if that was more universal Fi reaction than only in cases of conflict. If so, does it feel like rejection of you yourself when people take a break and put some space between you? All of this is just being considered as I go, so I have no idea if this is true or not.

Also, something I've been wondering - I realize that Fi users (at least NFPs) tend not to divulge anything deep and dark until a certain point, at which it feels like the floodgates have opened unequivically. Fe users (NFJs anyhow) tend to let it happen as it happens, but do have a series of stages that the other person works through with them. Very few people are in my inner circle, but others are at various stages along the way. Some of them will never advance further, while others most likely will at some point. I'm gathering that with Fi, you're either in or you're out. What criteria allows you to let people in? Do you have varying stages of what you share once people are in? In some ways I find you guys a little closed off initially. In other ways, I find almost a childlike vulnerability and trust that I would myself be reluctant to extend to many people. Can you explain this better from a Fi standpoint?
 
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Glycerine

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After a lot of analyzing, even though most of these struggles are universally human, you guys just want your perspective in your own context to be understood, right? For a long time, Fi sometimes came off as "I am so special... no one can understand the human condition like or as much as I can". It rubbed me the wrong way because from my perspective, I would be like "Aren't we all human? Shouldn't we all understand the human condition?"
 

uumlau

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After a lot of analyzing, even though most of these struggles are universally human, you guys just want your perspective in your own context to be understood, right?
Bingo!

And "be understood" is just that. No implication that it's "better": note how the Fi types communicate with each other. They don't argue about who has the best perspective, they share perspectives. Each perspective adds to total understanding. Others are free to accept or reject any given perspective/judgment for oneself, but it is considered rude to just dismiss it without attempting to understand it. One demonstrates one's understanding by saying something like, "Yeah, I remember when something similar happened to me, it was like of like ..." and so on.

So, the same way I switch into the "maybe" and "I think that perhaps" mode of Ti users, so that they can more easily digest my ideas (rather than asserting them point blank "as the truth" - even though other Te users know I'm not asserting any absolute), it should in theory be possible for Fe users to go into a "Here's a story about how I handled a similar situation," instead of "You really shouldn't behave like that."

For a long time, Fi sometimes came off as "I am so special... no one can understand the human condition like or as much as I can". It rubbed me the wrong way because from my perspective, I would be like "Aren't we all human? Shouldn't we all understand the human condition?"

Yeah, it's Fe that is trying to figure out what the "best perspective" is. Fe is sharing perspectives, too, but it is more blunt and open to negotiation. Fe is about a "shared understanding." Fi is about "sharing individual perspectives."

A particular tendency is that Fi speaks in terms of "I" so as to clarify that "this is just me, and may not apply to you." Fe speaks in terms of "you" to clarify that one is expressing interest and concern for the other person.

We are all human, and we all try to understand the human condition. Fi reaches understanding from the inside out. Fe reaches understanding from the outside, in.
 
G

Glycerine

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Bingo!

And "be understood" is just that. No implication that it's "better": note how the Fi types communicate with each other. They don't argue about who has the best perspective, they share perspectives. Each perspective adds to total understanding. Others are free to accept or reject any given perspective/judgment for oneself, but it is considered rude to just dismiss it without attempting to understand it. One demonstrates one's understanding by saying something like, "Yeah, I remember when something similar happened to me, it was like of like ..." and so on.

So, the same way I switch into the "maybe" and "I think that perhaps" mode of Ti users, so that they can more easily digest my ideas (rather than asserting them point blank "as the truth" - even though other Te users know I'm not asserting any absolute), it should in theory be possible for Fe users to go into a "Here's a story about how I handled a similar situation," instead of "You really shouldn't behave like that."



Yeah, it's Fe that is trying to figure out what the "best perspective" is. Fe is sharing perspectives, too, but it is more blunt and open to negotiation. Fe is about a "shared understanding." Fi is about "sharing individual perspectives."

A particular tendency is that Fi speaks in terms of "I" so as to clarify that "this is just me, and may not apply to you." Fe speaks in terms of "you" to clarify that one is expressing interest and concern for the other person.

We are all human, and we all try to understand the human condition. Fi reaches understanding from the inside out. Fe reaches understanding from the outside, in.

Thank you so much for explaining that! :D It's strange. I usually am very good about acknowledging others' perspectives and trying to understand them IRL, but these forums seem to bring out the worst in me sometimes.
 

uumlau

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Thank you so much for explaining that! :D It's strange. I usually am very good about acknowledging others' perspectives and trying to understand them IRL, but these forums seem to bring out the worst in me sometimes.

If so, then your "worst" is actually very good and kind. You expressed your understanding very well, which is why I was able to provide a concise response.
 

Laurie

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Bingo!

And "be understood" is just that. No implication that it's "better": note how the Fi types communicate with each other. They don't argue about who has the best perspective, they share perspectives. Each perspective adds to total understanding. Others are free to accept or reject any given perspective/judgment for oneself, but it is considered rude to just dismiss it without attempting to understand it. One demonstrates one's understanding by saying something like, "Yeah, I remember when something similar happened to me, it was like of like ..." and so on.

Yesterday I got in a big argument with someone because I was straight out talking about our differences. They didn't "get" that I just thought it would be easier to discuss rather than pretend they weren't there. They got very upset because they understood it as an attack rather than a sharing since I was talking about differences. We can't understand each other if we don't know each other's perspective even if it clashes. I don't think I'm describing it very well but it was exactly what was explained in that quote. A quest to understand each other rather than convince each other.

An INTJ and I used to talk about how we didn't understand why people argued instead of just talking things out. We wondered why people don't just share perspectives, reach mutual understanding and move on. Was it Fi or was it just that we were that wonderful.
 

INTP

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An INTJ and I used to talk about how we didn't understand why people argued instead of just talking things out. We wondered why people don't just share perspectives, reach mutual understanding and move on. Was it Fi or was it just that we were that wonderful.

im no intj, but i like to approach problems like this also. so i guess its just that you were so wonderful together
 

Laurie

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(not wonderful together, just wonderful people)
 

PeaceBaby

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uumlau said:
It's not merely about consensus. It's about being able to achieve people-oriented goals. E.g., you want to sell a product, influence a vote, change a company policy, accomplish some task that requires persuading other people to agree with you. There's a bit of give and take, of course, but Fe keeps an overall goal in mind and gives up those things not relevant to the goal.

It is completely analogous to Te, in this regard. It's about people-logistics, as opposed to material logistics.

Understand that Fe is about a purpose and the Fi purpose is quite different. Te and Fe offend each other due to different core motives, but very often the motives are similar. Obvious motives/goals are aligned, e.g., making more money in a business. It's the more obscure material efficiencies and people-considerations that cause conflict.

In a thread encouraging Fi to speak up, just one word has opened a whole new insight into Fe for me: the word goal.

When I reflected on this last night, it explained so much that was previously confusing. I'm not even sure I can put it into words yet, but I will try. It's a way of thinking that is completely alien, so if I get this wrong, I'm just trying to word it in a way that makes sense to me. Not trying to offend anyone at all.

Remember that Fe list? After examination, I was able to articulate that most of my issue with it was that it described a person who's value set is closer to mine than the Fi list was, and once I could see that I was inferring a value set underneath all those statements, and the list wasn't describing that aspect of the equation, it made more sense to me. Still, lingering in my mind were some questions ... does Fe have a value set? Is it this "helper" one by default? How come I think an Fe users' behaviour changes dependent upon who they are dealing with (remember now too, I assume a value set underpins behaviour, and I tend to see values as absolute, meaning if I act a certain way in situation A then I do so in situation B etc.)

So, fine, let's leave those thoughts for a minute - suffice it to say I have some lingering questions. After the debacle of the thread in question, I make this thread because I know that it's hard enough trying to verbalize my understanding of Fi and Fe without having to deal with being made fun of for doing so. I am confident (but not certain) that other Fi-ers feel that way too, and generally are hesitant to say so out loud, and I want to explore this more deeply. I want them to feel safe, here, to say it.

Enter the word ... goal. Suddenly I transport into the shoes of the Fe-ers ... who would look at this thread and say, "What is the goal of this thread? Here we go again, more talking, talking, talking to no purpose ... there will be more dissension that I will have to deal with ... I wish these Fi-ers would just shut up already!" And so I asked myself, what is the goal of this thread? I can tell you the purpose of the thread ... but the goal? The purpose is inform, to help foster understanding and communication, to unite a common POV. The goal is ... to be recognized and our POV be taken seriously? So, I dig a little deeper, what is the goal? And I discovered - there was no goal. I didn't make the thread with any other goal than to serve a purpose of understanding.

No wonder this drives Fe-ers nuts. If, like Te-ers, you are "Let's cut to the chase, what's the point already?" even this preamble to my revelation will be painful to read.

So, I will get to the point dear Fe-ers:

Fi-ers find different behaviour harassing than Fe-ers. It's no less distressing for us to be harassed in this way than it is for you to find emotional threads difficult to deal with. So I propose:

1.) That all Fi-ers make a point of reporting posts and threads to the mods where someone descends to personal attack (ad hominem arguments) to undermine an individual's right to freedom of speech without defamation or censorship. Stop putting up with it; if the Fe-ers don't know it's bothering you, they never will because their Fe filters are calibrated differently than yours.

2.) That people who continually attack Fi-ers (or anyone else) in this manner are banned from the forum. The forum seems especially effective at protecting the Fe perspective but not so much the Fi one. This is evidenced by the feedback liberally found throughout this thread.

3.) That an Fi dom mod is brought to the admin staff (don't think we have one anymore) who can advocate and help interpret at the individual level what's going on when someone is having an "emo-meltdown", bearing in mind these happen to all types and Fi-ers have a unique vantage point and insight to offer in these situations.

How's that? Does that help?

And as for explaining those other questions above, suffice it to say - very, very insightful. Won't overload this thread with that.
 

Tiltyred

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Clear-headed and to the point! Bravo! I like it!
 

Fidelia

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You're onto something with the Fe goal thing. This is indeed what frustrates Fe-ers when people start threads that stir up loads of controversy to deal with, but which ultimately don't change anything. It seems incomprehensible (from a goal oriented standpoint) to start a discussion that in the end doesn't do anything. I would imagine that Te feels the same way about Ti discussions.

I like it that you've done some thinking about what may work better than the present situation. I think it is important to see a variety of perspectives on how more people can be accommodated effectively.

As far as mods though - Cze Cze is an ENFP and Ivy is an INFP. I believe Geoff is also an INFP (that's what he has listed, although I've heard rumbles of INTP, so not sure about him). Highlander is an INTJ. Geoff is frequently away, but the rest are very active mods. Fi is represented on the modstaff.

I'm not sure I'm with you on banning anyone who expresses a lack of understanding for Fi though. While I don't think attacks on a person are permissible, attacks on an idea/belief/way of making a point aren't outlawed. If we were to extend the rules to subject matter and communication style as well, I think that could end up breaking off some valuable conversations. Some posters are extremely outspoken in their thoughts about sex, religion or politics. I often disagree, but if we were to make the environment feel 100% welcoming or safe without the need to defend the point of view being expressed, I think it would make for a limited and very sanitized forum. I'm not minimizing your suggestion, just wondering how you would envision it working in practicality.

I think there is a burden on Fi users to explain what their purpose is and even that they don't have a goal per se in discussing certain things. I believe this would go a long way in warding off Fe frustrations directed their way, since they would understand that a goal isn't the objective, therefore it is not that Fi-ers are doing a poor job of making their point or that they are just whining to each other. A lot of the comments directed towards Fi users have a lot to do with not understanding that the objectives for discussion are completely different.

Notice that it is not Fi across the board that gets attacked. It seems to me that there are Fi users on here who are not necessarily using pseudo Fe speak, they are true to themselves, but they still get heard. Some are even quite open about expressing their wariness of Fe, and yet their words are still accepted. This has a lot to do with the way they approach it. Would you say that this is an issue of Fe imposing a goal on them, rather than them expressing themselves in a more native tongue kind of way? I'm not saying that greater understanding isn't needed on Fe-er's parts too, but I'm not sure about banning. Can you give me a more specific example of what kind of behaviour you are referring to? Is it something like we saw evidenced in the Introverted Thinking Guide or more general expressions of dislike for Fi perspectives?

As far as reporting posts, this what we've been begging everyone to do all along! Consistently I get the response from Fi users that they aren't snitches and they feel that's underhanded and not their style. Do you see any way of overcoming that sentiment? If we don't know about what's happening, we can't take steps to improve the situation. Right now we are working on the issue of those who are indirectly trolling on a consistent basis, who seem to skate near the line but not cross it. I agree that issue needs to be addressed and I think it may help the situation. In this forum, I see an extraordinarily high level of disclosure in comparison to other forums. To me, that indicates that a lot of people do feel safe expressing themselves, including Fi users. However, it's certainly possible that there's a lot that goes under the radar and if that's the case, then we need to raise awareness so that we can better respond.
 
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