User Tag List

View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

Voters
36. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    23 63.89%
  • No

    13 36.11%
First 5131415161725 Last

Results 141 to 150 of 368

  1. #141
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    4 so/sp
    Posts
    6,932

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ti, and in particular, Ti + Ni, is quite capable of entering a mental space where words don't hurt. As an Ni-dom, I do the same thing. Very rarely, once in a while, some set of words might hit me in a painfully emotional way, but for whatever reason, I've learned not to hit back: not out of a sense of right and wrong, but rather because as much as I dislike emotional pain, I much more strongly dislike choosing a course of action that I regard as useless, pointless, unproductive.
    To the bolded, this is why I tend not to respond back in a similar manner, even if provoked, esp. if doing that would simply make things more volatile. I also.. basically.. don't want to stoop to their level. I mean, if I'm annoyed about a certain behavior of theirs, why in the world would I then respond in the same way? Doesn't even make sense. Then I'm doing the same thing I have a problem with - I'm becoming the problem too.

    As to entering a mental space where things don't hurt, absolutely. It's really a matter of choice, for me - I can choose how to look at things or react. So yeah, I'll decide not to take things personally, and put up a bit of armor, or whatever, and then I'm good. A lot of it for me too boils down to how I view the person. If I really respect them and their opinion, this isn't going to be easy and I might not be able to not care. However with most people I don't really put much stock in their view/opinion in particular, so I treat it and their words as I might any random person - so I could easily shrug off something from someone I'm not invested with. [ ... Some days I'm much better at this than others, though. Every now and then I AM in a hyper-sensitive place, where I just feel totally vulnerable and anxious about stuff, and typically I avoid much interaction when I'm like that.]

    Ti/Fe does the same thing with "feelings." In the Ti/Fe perspective, it is the feelings/values/customs that are "objectively true" and derive their truth from empiricism and collaborative effort. It is "feelings" that are impersonal, as weird as that might sound. (I suspect that it is this property of being "impersonal" that makes Fi read Fe as less than genuine, when nothing could be further from the truth. The Fe is how one deals with "feelings", it is not how one feels feelings.) So for Ti/Fe, it's one's ideas that are personal, and the feelings that are communal, while for Fi/Te, one's feelings are personal and the ideas are communal.
    For me it's that I truly don't put much stock in my of-the-moment feelings and reactions. So if someone tells me I'm way out of line or am overreacting (as an example), I'll very likely start thinking I am. I'll probably be slightly embarrassed or will immediately start assessing why I might be overreacting. Since most feelings are ever-changing, I tend to not place much weight on them - and therefore am not 'offended' if someone would question me on them. If I have an ongoing, deep-rooted feeling, though, that's a sign of something that needs to be addressed.

    And absolutely, my ideas/thoughts are basically ME. They're hands-down how I equate my sense of self/identity. So yeah, someone invalidating or questioning those... I'll very likely feel unaccepted and in a sense will feel that my core self - who I am - is not wanted or is at least not wanted as-is -- since my thoughts (self) are rejected.

    What surprised me when I heard this: I'd been living like that for years, except with a slight twist. I don't assume that they're nice, per se, but I do assume they have their reasons, and most people aren't so stupid as to gratuitously verbally attack others "just to be mean," and those that are that stupid are not worth my time. So I assume it's just a misunderstanding until they prove that they really are that mean/stupid, at which point I don't attack, I ignore.*
    For myself, I just know that everyone speaks their own 'language' and the same sentence/manner of speaking from one person is going to have an entirely different meaning from the same phrases from another. So I don't have an issue really with 'mean language' in and of itself... it totally depends on who it's coming from, and I interpret it differently from one to the other.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  2. #142
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    uumlau, your posts have been awesome, especially the radar/sonar analogies.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The entire crux of the FPs' complaints of the Fi quick guide description was that it did not describe a general process, but was focused on too specific, personal values. What you're arguing here is what the FPs were arguing. If you hadn't dismissed it because you did not like the communication style, you might have actually gotten the point. And that is the point of this thread.
    yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Since Fi users primarily interact 1:1, when we get this sort of message above....we may promptly extrapolate that to the entire group. Because most of us are Fe-Blind, (not the learned social nicieties, but the ability to innately pick up on group mood), we cant seem to understand if it is just macGuffin saying we are being bad but bluffing about the others, if it is MacGuffin and three friends he chatted with in PM, or if it is MacGuffin and the other 1300 members of typology central.

    In a thread if we start to see multiple people-say 3 to 5-attacking the same point, I suspect we start to assume it is a much larger group. It feels like you have been turned into a target for attack-like you are being singled out. ENFPs in particular are notorious for paranoia about what others think of us and assuming the worst, so to remain functional human beings, at some point we learn to just ignore the Ne negative feedback that is subtle in nature. I cant properly interpret it or trust the interpretations thus it is disregarded as it would make me a fucking basket case to do otherwise. I realize some people hate me as a result and I regret this, but I dont really have an alternate path.
    yeah. this is an excellent point. my read on groups sucks ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    This forum has a pernicious tendency towards inane conflict.

    proteanmix, I don't really understand why the number of Fi users here has any bearing people's feelings regarding the expression of Fi. It's not a battle, which is what you seem to be saying, but then undermine your argument by saying:

    What of it? Is Fe now the one victimised? So now Fi is "bad"? The answer is that it doesn't really matter at all. This argument/situation strikes me as very petty from both sides. We're not (or, at least, I'm not) attempting to laud Fi over Fe, or denigrate Fe, or Te, or anything else.
    i feel this way too. proteanmix, your post made me very upset, though i imagine that was not the intention. it's everything that we've been arguing against. you imply that Fi users don't have anything in particular to bring to the table; you imply that it's ridiculous to assume that we could. you say for us not to do the unsafe, victim thing, but that's exactly what you just did. in my opinion, it seems like there are continuous Fi threads because Fi users keep having to try to start over to get it right for once, because in just a few more pages the ship is going to go under. just because Fe users don't blab about Fe like Fi users do about Fi doesn't mean that the Fi communication style isn't continually attacked. i would love Fe users to talk more about Fe. it still doesn't address the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix
    Regarding the Fe Quick Reference Guide, go back and check. Within the first 10 posts of the thread, there were Fi users complaining about the Fi Quick Reference in the Fe thread. Keep your complaints about your Quick Reference in your Quick Reference. Why contaminate two threads? Yes that is my Fe talking, it looks it was necessary to ruin someone's else because you didn't like yours. I looked again at the Fi QR and it wasn't Fe users in there complaining about the Fe QR, which is the parallel.

    I did wonder why the Fi QR soured, fermented, and exploded so quickly, when the other QR's came and went without much fanfare. The question that comes to me is why were the others so neutrally received and commented on, while the Fi QR was totally wrong, nothing was right about it, completely off-base and unrepresentative of Fi. If the author was accurate enough to get the others right, why was the Fi one so wrong?
    it's a good question. why was it so wrong? we think it's the author's problem, and so we were trying to address it. you seem to think it's our problem, and that we should just quit whining.

    but what i have to point out, is that Fi users alone in discussion don't seem to identify this victim problem in one another. sure, we have other points of contention because we're not all the same type or the same person and have different points of view, but there's none of this constant accusation and underlying irritation. i mean, it sounds like you're dismissing that the Fi guide could have been wrong just because the others are right. that doesn't make logical sense, though. it's a fallacy... to speak in logical terms, the truth of each individual statement (each guide) has no bearing on the truth of the other statements. they're independent of one another. and i do get that you see a long pattern of Fi complaining, but if we're going to talk about external patterns, i also see the connection of the author having Fi as 6th in her function order. the two functions i'd expect someone to have the hardest time describing would be Ni and Fi, but fortunately she's a Ni dom. and unless i remember incorrectly, i believe the person who posted the threads is also a Fe user. and you are a Fe user. to me, this looks like a pattern of Fe users not being able to see what the problem is.

    but what if the Fi thread exploded because it was wrong? and the Fe thread got Fi comments because there's a consistent struggle between Fi and Fe and to us, Fi always seems to get dismissed as whining and complaining. it's exactly this:

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    NFP: There's something wrong here.
    non-NFP: What are you complaining about now?
    NFP: This isn't right.
    non-NFP: It's perfectly fine.
    NFP: What do you mean it's perfectly fine? I just explained what was wrong with it.
    non-NFP: There you go getting all emotional and sensitive again.
    NFP: <now upset> I am NOT getting emotional! And it's unfair of you to change the topic like that!
    non-NFP: You're proving my point for me.
    NFP: Arrrrgggghhhh!
    i agree that it was inappropriate for the Fi comments to leak into the Fe thread. however, i think the point, was this:

    Fi original: neutral, negative, neutral, neutral
    Fe original: neutral, positive, neutral, positive
    Ne original: neutral, positive, neutral, positive

    can be solved in one of two ways - either this:

    Fi: neutral, negative, neutral, negative
    Fe: neutral, negative, neutral, negative
    Ne: neutral, negative, neutral, negative

    or

    Fi: neutral, positive, neutral, positive
    Fe: neutral, positive, neutral, positive
    Ne: neutral, positive, neutral, positive

    the discrepancy in our eyes could have been fixed either by changing the Fi guide or changing the other guides. Ti wasn't posted, so the best option for comparison was Fe. i think that's why the comments leaked over. Ps also probably just see thread titles more loosely than Js. i don't see mixing subjects as cross-contamination as much as i see it a healthy blending of opinions.

    but if what i hear you saying is right, that you don't think Fi users can have a separate truth to bring to the table, no wonder you just want us to not talk about it. it sounds like it's already been decided in your mind that we're wrong, and there's no sense in Fi users talking about it. is that true? if it's not true, how can we talk about the guide not seeming right in a way that's okay with you? that's what i don't understand. are we just not allowed to think the guide wasn't perfect? because if that's true, then to hell with trying to make peace between Fi and Fe. but i don't think it's true, if only because i really don't want it to be true. there has to be a way we can both feel heard and respected in conversation.

  3. #143
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    4 so/sp
    Posts
    6,932

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Since Fi users primarily interact 1:1, when we get this sort of message above....we may promptly extrapolate that to the entire group. Because most of us are Fe-Blind, (not the learned social nicieties, but the ability to innately pick up on group mood), we cant seem to understand if it is just macGuffin saying we are being bad but bluffing about the others, if it is MacGuffin and three friends he chatted with in PM, or if it is MacGuffin and the other 1300 members of typology central.
    I think that I can very much pick up on group mood as well as predict pretty well how each person is going to react to a given comment from someone else, and therefore how many threads are going to go down as a result.

    What I really *don't get*, though, is the implication that Fe users don't act 1:1. :confused: Now I'm kind of assuming, Orobas, that you're referring to something unique when it comes to 1:1, that Fi users do that you don't think Fe users do.... but for myself and other Fe users that I know, we operate very much on a 1:1 level. This is especially notable for introverts... in fact I would have been quicker to attribute a preference to 1:1 interaction/connection more to introversion than Fi. Can you elaborate?
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  4. #144
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    What excellent contributions over the last few days ... allow me to work through them and share some more thoughts, I have much ground to cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Yeah, this is a major source of frustration. I expect my colleagues to look at me as if I have grown another head if I go full Fi-mode, but that is the reason to haunt this forum no? If we can't lower at least a part of our inhibitions to discuss things and act freely here, where else is left for us to be ourselves but in our heads?
    Well said William K, I think this echoes the sentiments of many Fi users here.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    To all the Fi users who don't feel safe talking about Fi, gain comfort in this: with Fe, I always have the fear of people calling my Fe shallow and fake or getting insanely jealous of my Fe. I feel more safe talking about Ni.


    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Obviously it's not safe for non Fi Doms and Aux's to speak their mind


    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    99% of the time Fi types do this on their, Fe, terms also, but not when it's a threat to integrity. Then we'll point out the elephant in the room, the naked emperor, and begin a process to explore what the truth really is.
    Yes, the naked emperor is a interesting metaphor to explore in relation to the context of this thread. (And I see in further responses it's expanded on as well.)

    When Fi chooses to "call out" what is sees as the truth, that 1% of the time OA points out above, it's typically not for something as obvious or easily agreed upon as the invisible clothing. What Fi users "see" as truth, however, can seem just as transparent as that lack of clothes, plus it can seem obvious that everyone should already "see" that truth. But Fi users wonder why no one else gives voice to it, especially when you can sense others have a whole variety of reactions revolving around that truth. Some people agree with the truth, and you can feel that, but others will be exploiting or capitalizing on either the emotionality or practicality of the situation, taking advantage of what's unspoken.

    So let's assume for a moment that (most) Fi truths are not generally welcome to be brought out into the light. It starts when we are young, and we point out things like, "Grandma is sad," and we are told in reply, "No, that's not true, Grandma is fine." We wonder why few people talk about their true feelings or are dishonest about expressing them when they do. When we display our own emotions, feeling sad or hurt or frustrated, and are met with negative reactions, we are further hurt with comments like "Suck it up, stop being so sensitive, no one is interested in what you're feeling." This dissonance causes many Fi users to both hide their Fi truth and doubt the truth their Fi is revealing - after all, if no one is agreeing, or - when the Fi truth is verbalized, people react negatively, how accurate or welcome is our truth?

    (And let me emphasize that it's right for us to learn to question it in order to learn how to validate it. What I am highlighting is that some of the process to get there can be emotionally challenging.)

    So, years pass, experience accumulates, we "grow up". At a certain point in our lives, when enough confidence in our inner process has developed, Fi users generally tend to verbalize what we are "seeing" to others to affirm or refute our hypotheses. We have learned to place limits on what we believe via Fi until we obtain more empirical evidence to back it up, as in the parentheses above. Ne, to explore all possibilities. Si, to plumb the depths of our own history and that of others, throughout time. Te - Te is the "say it out loud" function. Not in the confident position of the first function, to assert "You are wrong" but in the fourth, "This seems wrong to me." We say it like this in order to acknowledge the truth of each individual person, and we await the replies we receive in order to obtain more data to enable us to more deeply analyze the situation and come to fuller, more complete conclusions. We already know from previous experience, reactions will vary. There will be defensiveness, anger, relief, happiness, and in amongst all that, hopefully a whole bunch of truthiness.

    Realize too, it takes some maturity to unwind how emotions enter into the equation, different than "feeling tones" - our own emotions, and the emotions of others, and how both of these can play into Fi values. I could have a feeling tone as the underlying factor in an emotion I experience. They are distinct; separate, yet connected - and it too can take time to un-wend these. There is a great deal of interplay. To summarize that, Fi users DON'T expose "truth" with the impulsive innocence of a child, especially beyond a certain age prone to idealistic naivete. We know there are potential global and local ramifications - and in addition, personal repercussions will likely be heading our way.

    In the case of the naked emperor, it didn't take much to get to the bare truth. One voice, speaking a plain truth. The multitude of voices that joined the voice of the child were the data ... the courage of those to actually open their eyes, see what's in plain sight, agree and spread the word.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    What I’ve noticed with Fi descriptions, as that because Fi has such a large range of how one can personally identify with it, the description has to be pretty general to try to get everybody in. But because of the generality, Fi sees the description as incomplete and lacking both precision and depth of their own intricate self understanding. It’s the downfall of personal, subjectively operating decision making function. It’s going to be so unique to you, that any general overview is always going to be missing, so you need to fill in the blanks.
    The entire crux of the FPs' complaints of the Fi quick guide description was that it did not describe a general process, but was focused on too specific, personal values. What you're arguing here is what the FPs were arguing. If you hadn't dismissed it because you did not like the communication style, you might have actually gotten the point. And that is the point of this thread.
    That is the point of the thread, indeed. I have a whole post dedicated to values vs process, actually. It took me a little time to gain that insight, and when I did, I outlined the process of getting there, here.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    INTJ: You're wrong. <explains in detail why you're wrong>
    non-INTJ: We don't like your attitude.
    INTJ: Um, you're still wrong.
    non-INTJ: You're so f-cking arrogant and you don't even know it.
    INTJ: Uh huh. You're still wrong.
    non-INTJ: Well, you might have a point, but you're still arrogant.
    INTJ: Well, if by "arrogant" you mean that I always seem to be right, I must agree.

    versus

    NFP: There's something wrong here.
    non-NFP: What are you complaining about now?
    NFP: This isn't right.
    non-NFP: It's perfectly fine.
    NFP: What do you mean it's perfectly fine? I just explained what was wrong with it.
    non-NFP: There you go getting all emotional and sensitive again.
    NFP: <now upset> I am NOT getting emotional! And it's unfair of you to change the topic like that!
    non-NFP: You're proving my point for me.
    NFP: Arrrrgggghhhh!
    Seems accurate in illustrating the difference in how we are perceived, yes I think so.

    But there are so many reasons why INFP doesn't start off the hop with "You are wrong". 1.) We don't want to dishonor any other individual, so we don't presume to know the truth. 2.) We need to accumulate data in order to feel more confident about what is true. Thus, the more tentative exploration. 3.) We can tend to be fearful of just putting a bold statement out there, when we know via Ne that we might be wrong.

    It's like my previous metaphor about the milk carton - we smell it, it seems sour, so we ask someone else to smell it too, to see if it smells bad to them before we decide to pour it down the sink. Can't change that action - once you've dumped the milk out, it's gone.

    My ESTJ husband reminded me of a great truth - Te and Fe decisions ARE always right, unless proven otherwise. He's concise. Yet in that little nugget - so much wisdom. The vantage point provides one with an element of confidence, of surety, that other functions cannot replicate as readily.

    -----

    More to follow. Thanks all for your input.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #145
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    I'm going to quickly add that proteanmix's post is imperative to examine here, and I respectfully wish for debate on it to pause for a moment, until I catch up to this point.

    skylights, please do leave all of your post above intact as well. I apologize for being so behind in replies and acknowledgements.

    Wonderful stuff here all. Excellent.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #146
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    What I really *don't get*, though, is the implication that Fe users don't act 1:1. :confused: Now I'm kind of assuming, Orobas, that you're referring to something unique when it comes to 1:1, that Fi users do that you don't think Fe users do.... but for myself and other Fe users that I know, we operate very much on a 1:1 level. This is especially notable for introverts... in fact I would have been quicker to attribute a preference to 1:1 interaction/connection more to introversion than Fi. Can you elaborate?
    i think the point was simply that Fi users suck at groups because we focus on intrapersonal issues. Fe users focus on interpersonal issues, which can mean either between themself and another person, or between themself and lots of other people, or between two other individuals, or between a group and an individual, or between two groups. Fi can focus on one person at a time: either oneself or someone else. and we ping-pong between ourselves and others, so we don't really see the connections Fe users see. i might have a good grip on how i feel, and how you feel, and a how PB feels, but not a very good grip on how we all feel about one another.

    i agree that introversion and 1-on-1 probably correlate more - though personally i'm much better at handling things 1-on-1 even though i really like groups.

  7. #147
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    4 so/sp
    Posts
    6,932

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    where do you see that implication? all i see is the statement that Fi users tend to act 1:1. that doesn't have anything to do with Fe users, and i agree with it probably being more related to introversion.

    i think the point was simply that Fi users suck at groups because we focus on intrapersonal issues. Fe users focus on interpersonal issues, which can mean either between themself and another person, or between themself and lots of other people, or between two other individuals, or between a group and an individual, or between two groups. Fi can focus on one person at a time: either oneself or someone else.
    Well I've seen it mentioned in other threads that Fi's are 1:1, so thought it was a good question to ask - wondering what that meant Fe's were, then. Thanks though for clarifying.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  8. #148
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    cascadeco you always catch me before i edit my unintended bitchy tone out

  9. #149
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    6,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post

    Fi/Te will talk about ideas in a "direct way", such that the ideas are their own entities. The statement isn't "I think that maybe thus and such might be the case," but rather "Thus and such is true!" Notice that the former contains the phrase "I think ...": the implication is that the idea is very much part of oneself. This is a typical Ti approach. Notice that the Te approach has removed the "I think" along with the "maybe" and the "might." The "I think" is removed because it's just an idea, do be discussed and debate as much as any other idea. Often, in the Te perspective, there is a good degree of empiricism and collaborative evaluation, so it isn't just "I think" but rather, "A lot of people have studied this, not just me, and even if it might be refined, this core of the idea is recognizably true." This Te perspective necessarily distances the idea from oneself, so the idea can be safely discussed, without fear of any sort of emotional (Fi) harm should the idea fail in some way.
    Some very interesting stuff here, but I need to point out some stuff from the Ti perspective...when we say, "I think..." and "maybe," it's usually not because the ideas are so precious and personal that we don't want them messed with. It's because we are aware that there could be a big blind spot and lots of other data to consider that we might not be aware of. So the qualifiers are to say, "hey, I'm not saying this is the be-all, end-all right here. This idea is a work in progress, and there could be something I'm missing." Now, no one wants to look like an idiot, and INTPs in particular hate looking stupid. So there might be a bit of a personal element there, but I think in general, Ti likes to be given information that could make it better-informed. I think Te bugs Ti because we go, "How could you possibly know that for sure? How do you know you haven't missed something crucial?" Is this how Fi feels about Fe?

    Ti/Fe does the same thing with "feelings." In the Ti/Fe perspective, it is the feelings/values/customs that are "objectively true" and derive their truth from empiricism and collaborative effort. It is "feelings" that are impersonal, as weird as that might sound. (I suspect that it is this property of being "impersonal" that makes Fi read Fe as less than genuine, when nothing could be further from the truth. The Fe is how one deals with "feelings", it is not how one feels feelings.) So for Ti/Fe, it's one's ideas that are personal, and the feelings that are communal, while for Fi/Te, one's feelings are personal and the ideas are communal.
    Well, it's not that feelings are impersonal. It's that they're TOO personal. Ti/Fe tends to feel that since feelings are personal, easily manipulated, mercurial, they aren't reliable data. For us, leading with our emotions makes us do stupid stuff. (Maybe I should speak for myself.) Leading with feelings makes us project our feelings onto others, makes us act out of petulance, pettiness or revenge, makes us lose our ability to see clearly. Creates drama. Far too often, leading with my personal feelings would lead me to act selfishly. So, really, it's not that feelings are impersonal, it's that they're nearly irrelevant in the decision-making process, FOR US. We consult them, but we are also able to override them if necessary. I think this perception of how we might deal with feelings (and I can't really speak for INFJs--this is probably more of an INTP thing?) is based upon our own experience with our feelings and our observation of how personal feelings can impact a group.

    So, when Ti is "being mean," so to speak, it is speaking tersely and directly, which will often come out as Fe: terse and direct Fe feels mean. Especially for a Ti dom/aux, Fe doesn't develop the skill to soften such blows until much later in life, and even then, old habits die hard. So when Ti hears something that it thinks is stupid or silly or otherwise "unreasonable," it comes out as kind of an Fe admonishment, "Stop being so unreasonable," rather than, "Could you please clarify that for me? I don't understand what you mean."
    Yeah, even I have trouble dealing with young INTPs in person. I do think I can state my positions on things bluntly, but I also try to do it impersonally. I don't know if anyone has been offended or hurt by that; I hope not.



    But not just that ...
    When someone is disrespectful, be respectful.
    When someone is being unreasonable, be reasonable.
    When someone doesn't understand you, maybe it's YOU that doesn't understand THEM.

    And in all cases, don't attack. Not even to "defend yourself." Such attacks do not defend your integrity, but rather violate it. If it's wrong for them to attack you, even assuming that they mean it, you commit as great a wrong by attacking in return.
    This is fantastic.
    Something Witty

  10. #150
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,134

    Default

    Yeah, for me I find that with the idea thing, it is not just that it is personal, but that I don't want to make incorrect assertions. There probably is a Fe element mixed into that too though - not wanting to be seen as abrasive, know it all, bossy or arrogant, particularly if I am not absolutely certain of the assertions I am making. I want others to view me as being credible and to start stating incorrect "facts" would damage that sense of credibility. An abrasive style of speech would make them closed to considering my ideas. Therefore it is in my best interests to try to put myself in other's shoes and qualify my statements slightly. (From my Fe/Ti perspective). I would never state it in certain terms unless I had verified and reverified so many times I was absolutely sure that it applied in 99.99999999999 percent of all cases.

    I think the INFJ approach to our feelings is different than INTP, but still, I see them much like cascadeco described - too changeable to be of definitive value in decision-making. I put some stock in them and if I see that several incidents which provoked X feeling have an underlying cause that provoked that feeling, I remember that for next time. I usually need to figure out WHY I feel a certain way though and if it is valid, rather than just going with it. I tend to believe those around me if they tell me my feelings are unreasonable, simply because I use their reactions and responses to calibrate mine. I generally have a great sense of how everyone in the room will react to particular ideas or comments (Ni), but sometimes I do tend to over discount what my own reactions are until I have had time to think it over and decide whether I am being reasonable or not.

    Therefore when Fi users act in certain ways, I am usually doing what I wish others would for me - giving me some sense of how others are reacting to my words so that I can recalibrate before any damage is done. I'm realizing that is very invalidating to them, but it isn't meant out of a sense of discounting their importance. Rather it was trying to protect them from losing face or credibility in front of their audience. As unsupportive as it is felt, it is actually seen as a rather supportive gesture. If I didn't care about them or about the outcome, I wouldn't be bothered to risk the conflict involved.

    It's only been lately that I've realized that is what Te users are doing with me when they challenge my ideas quite bluntly without giving thought to them or listening to the details I want to add.

Similar Threads

  1. [INFP] INFPs, how much do you feel similars with ESFPs?
    By Speed Gavroche in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 06-14-2016, 03:27 AM
  2. [ENFP] ENFPs: Do you ever feel like this under pressure or stress?
    By SingSmileShine in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-05-2013, 04:56 PM
  3. [ENFP] ENFPs - Do you feel the need to constantly (and suddenly) move?
    By Malkavia in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 07-05-2013, 12:52 PM
  4. [ENFP] ENFPs, do you ever feel more like SPs or NTs than NFs?
    By Elfboy in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 11-14-2011, 10:19 PM
  5. [INFP] INFPs, Do You Feel Workaday Norms Interfere with Flow?
    By SquirrelTao in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 06-24-2008, 03:29 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO