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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #131
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I challenge people to find the same amount of threads where Fe is discussed in isolation of another function to plumb its depths (Fe has depths? Er?). Fe doesn't even usually get a thread solely dedicated to itself unless it's negative (manipulative, conformist, EVIL) or another Fe vs. Fi feeding frenzy.
    so-wrt threads about Fi-I'd almost suggest part of what you are seeing is us Fi folks using Te to dissect Fi. We put it out there on the "idea table" and then dig and poke at it and bounce our sloppy Te ideas off one another to try and get a better understanding of where we are wrong. So it ends up with lots of threads.

    The Fe users-INFJs at least-have actually noted at times feeling as though they were actually waiting for someone to invite them to post on threads-without that invite they dont feel comfortable speaking up-thus perhaps that is part of the reason there are not so many Fe threads.

    Also-Your radar analogy gave me Ne orgasms. Really. It made my brain go ooooooo! and awwwwwww! It was a bit like the day my INTJ love compared Ni to differential geometry....*swoons*

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    It's a lot of stuff to address here and I don't really have the energy to do so, but this whole "the emperor wears no clothes" metaphor comes across as disingenuous. To me (I speak for no group) it's implying that Fi holds some kind of truth that no one else recognizes or is so dangerous that it must be suppressed and squelched. Does that not seem over the top and stretching it a bit or is it me?
    Every function-Fi, Ti, Fe and Te-all hold truths that people who use the other functions will not recognize. We are all blinded to whole aspects of reality-kinda like we are in a multidimensional world, but we can only see certain dimensions. We have to rely upon people who can see those other dimension to explain to us what they see there-which sometimes will contradict what we see in our own dimensions. But it can be hard, especially if the delivery of the message violates our values or if the content of the message violates our values.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Ahh, vanity search. I see my name popped up!

    It's a lot of stuff to address here and I don't really have the energy to do so, but this whole "the emperor wears no clothes" metaphor comes across as disingenuous. To me (I speak for no group) it's implying that Fi holds some kind of truth that no one else recognizes or is so dangerous that it must be suppressed and squelched. Does that not seem over the top and stretching it a bit or is it me?
    Yes, I agree in this case in particular it's over the top and stretching it, though I do know what they're getting at. I also found the statement that Fi users were making others feel "threatened" kind of amusing - again, not in this case. I doubt anyone was sincerely threatened over a squabble about the definition of Fi. This kind of melodrama hurts, not helps, the case some individuals are trying to present.

    I only put in this info because I've been called an Fi user repeatedly on this site, but I'm really at a loss here. Either Peacebaby is right and I've been using Fe all along, or function theory really isn't working in this case.

  3. #133
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This might explain how the INTJ approach doesn't seem to run into the same crash and burn as the NFP approach.

    INTJ: You're wrong. <explains in detail why you're wrong>
    non-INTJ: We don't like your attitude.
    INTJ: Um, you're still wrong.
    non-INTJ: You're so f-cking arrogant and you don't even know it.
    INTJ: Uh huh. You're still wrong.
    non-INTJ: Well, you might have a point, but you're still arrogant.
    INTJ: Well, if by "arrogant" you mean that I always seem to be right, I must agree.

    versus

    NFP: There's something wrong here.
    non-NFP: What are you complaining about now?
    NFP: This isn't right.
    non-NFP: It's perfectly fine.
    NFP: What do you mean it's perfectly fine? I just explained what was wrong with it.
    non-NFP: There you go getting all emotional and sensitive again.
    NFP: <now upset> I am NOT getting emotional! And it's unfair of you to change the topic like that!
    non-NFP: You're proving my point for me.
    NFP: Arrrrgggghhhh!

    [The above is not meant to be insulting to INTJs or NFPs or non-INTJs or non-NFPs, but is intended solely as tongue-in-cheek humor to demonstrate a point.]

    I believe this is where FineLine has made a very meaningful distinction. It is well and good to point out the emperor has no clothes, but at some point Fi needs to have a bit more of an iron will and not buckle in to intimidation or be distracted by jabs and taunts. Every post that says no more than "Stop being so mean!" ends up saying/meaning/implying/communicating A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MESSAGE THAN YOU INTEND!!!!! The intended message is "the emperor has no clothes" not "you're mean."

    The way to get others to "accommodate another communication style ..." is to stick to your main message, ignoring distractions. The communication style to emphasize is pointing out those things that Fi is so good and understanding and pointing out.

    The kind of things Fi points out are big. They have to be pretty darn big in the first place to get meek Fi to speak up at all. They're so big in fact, that a lot of people don't want to hear them in the first place. This is why I like the "emperor has no clothes" metaphor: the whole point of the story is that a LOT of people had a vested interest in ignoring that truth. Those people will not simply just say, "Oh darn, the jig is up," and throw in the towel. No, they're going to fight and disagree and say all sorts of mean things.

    Those arguing from an Fi perspective say that they're fighting for their integrity, and I believe that is an accurate statement. Note, however, that people saying mean things is no threat to anyone's integrity! It is the denial of the truth that is the threat to integrity. So if you're going to take a stand for truth, fight for the truth. Don't fight for your ego. Don't fight for your bruised feelings. To "defend" against such "attacks" is a disservice to your integrity.

    This is one of the hardest Fi-lessons to learn.

    Perhaps this is why the Fi-objections get characterized as "whining." The "reason" that is heard for it being wrong is the emotional tone of the objection when the real reason is, "it's wrong."
    Thanks for this post. Very interesting points.

    You are right about NFPs taking things personally - we naturally tend to internalize what others say about us. My ISTP father is baffled by how I do this. If someone says something abusive or rude to him he shrugs his shoulders and walks away without the slightest affect on his mood. I, however, cannot do so, as much as I have often wished I could. No matter how hard I try I can't depersonalise my interaction with the world and struggle to emotionally distance myself from such situations.

    One thing that many NTs seem to not understand, is that NFPs stop listening when NTs use a distasteful or aggressive mode of expression. It doesn't matter how right they are and how reasonable their point is, all of this is drowned out by the unpleasant language and/or tone, and the point is inevitably lost. Instead of properly taking in what they have to say, our backs are immediately up and we go into defense mode. For me, this can result in me either physically removing myself from the situation or simply walling up and refusing to listen any more. Alternatively, in situations where I am particularly stirred up, I will become openly angry and contemptuous, and begin to 'defend my integrity'. It is like having someone scream their point at you; it is rather grating on one's ears and makes it very difficult to restrain from expressing your irritation, let alone take in and relate to what they are saying. It is a complete distraction to me and, in my eyes, repositions the argument/discussion as being about the interpersonal relationship (or lack thereof), rather than the actual matter at hand. Basically, my instincts tell me (however right or wrong this may be) that if someone uses negative, emotive language when critiquing my argument, they have effectively personalised the discussion; they have taken an objective, dispassionate discussion and rendered it subjective and therefore personal. I think you'll find that NFPs are often quite capable of remaining emotionally removed from a situation until others bring negatively-charged language into the fray, thus provoking us to react emotionally. We view such language as a weapon; you shouldn't wave it around haphazardly without expecting us to draw swords too.

    So you see, its actually quite difficult for us to ignore the distraction of perceived or actual attacks and focus on the issue itself. I do realise that words may not hold the same weight and significance for others as they do for NFPs, and its difficult to anticipate how each individual may react to the way you express yourself and adjust accordingly. But I do think that caution must be taken when using inflammatory language around anyone, even if you don't naturally respond in the same way to it.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #134
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I have had so many accusations thrown at me for being a whiny INFP and having fi fueled outbursts, personally directed at me, one gets sick of it. Especially at the times it was not valid. So no...I don't feel safe. If I have a bad day, and let my guard down, surruptiously release a little emotion here, I get personally attacked, every single fucking time.
    So yeah, I don't feel safe, I don't even feel I'm a valid member at times. I don't know if anything happens behind the scenes, but yes, I feel personally attacked, and I don't think my feelings are invalid in this arena. I don't know what happens behind the scenes, maybe it's best for me not to know.
    BUT this is the reason why I choose to leave.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #135
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Thanks for this post. Very interesting points.

    You are right about NFPs taking things personally - we naturally tend to internalize what others say about us. My ISTP father is baffled by how I do this. If someone says something abusive or rude to him he shrugs his shoulders and walks away without the slightest affect on his mood. I, however, cannot do so, as much as I have often wished I could. No matter how hard I try I can't depersonalise my interaction with the world and struggle to emotionally distance myself from such situations.

    One thing that many NTs seem to not understand, is that NFPs stop listening when NTs use a distasteful or aggressive mode of expression. It doesn't matter how right they are and how reasonable their point is, all of this is drowned out by the unpleasant language and/or tone, and the point is inevitably lost. Instead of properly taking in what they have to say, our backs are immediately up and we go into defense mode. For me, this can result in me either physically removing myself from the situation or simply walling up and refusing to listen any more. Alternatively, in situations where I am particularly stirred up, I will become openly angry and contemptuous, and begin to 'defend my integrity'. It is like having someone scream their point at you; it is rather grating on one's ears and makes it very difficult to restrain from expressing your irritation, let alone take in and relate to what they are saying. It is a complete distraction to me and, in my eyes, repositions the argument/discussion as being about the interpersonal relationship (or lack thereof), rather than the actual matter at hand. Basically, my instincts tell me (however right or wrong this may be) that if someone uses negative, emotive language when critiquing my argument, they have effectively personalised the discussion; they have taken an objective, dispassionate discussion and rendered it subjective and therefore personal. I think you'll find that NFPs are often quite capable of remaining emotionally removed from a situation until others bring negatively-charged language into the fray, thus provoking us to react emotionally. We view such language as a weapon; you shouldn't wave it around haphazardly without expecting us to draw swords too.

    So you see, its actually quite difficult for us to ignore the distraction of perceived or actual attacks and focus on the issue itself. I do realise that words may not hold the same weight and significance for others as they do for NFPs, and its difficult to anticipate how each individual may react to the way you express yourself and adjust accordingly. But I do think that caution must be taken when using inflammatory language around anyone, even if you don't naturally respond in the same way to it.
    i've said these exact words before too...it's true i can be completely emotionally detached from whatever topic and debate all night with you about it until someones tone becomes hostile...i just can't deal with it and then it turns personal...and it sucks.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #136
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is why I compared the INTJ (NiFi) and NFP (NeFi) approaches, earlier. The hard lesson for Fi to learn is to accept being misunderstood as part of the process of communication. I believe "integrity" (as Fi/Te understands "integrity" in a very specific way) is the path for Fi to follow; that being misunderstood, no matter how painful, is not a violation of integrity. The "signature" of being misunderstood is a different signature than "integrity violation," but to many Fi people, especially those younger and more inexperienced, they have the same signature.
    I've never heard it worded like that. I think that's an apt way of saying it. Also that Fi is a process and judging mechanism, it's not a set of values or a conclusion or a message in itself. I also like the point made in the thread about how Ne is constantly feeding into the system and looking for meaning/confirmation/signs in the environment and other people.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  7. #137
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think you'll find that NFPs are often quite capable of remaining emotionally removed from a situation until others bring negatively-charged language into the fray, thus provoking us to react emotionally. We view such language as a weapon; you shouldn't wave it around haphazardly without expecting us to draw swords too.
    I also find it extremely distasteful when, if I am discussing what I believe, people reply saying something like "I don't know how anybody could believe that!" or "That doesn't make any sense!". I can tell you now that all of my opinions "make sense" - I've given them extensive thought and challenged them from every angle. None of my opinions are glib, and, as soon as anyone in a debate utters anything even comparable to the aforementioned statements, I am on the offensive. I wouldn't say this type of response is restricted to any one type, but I find that non-NFs are the ones most likely to say this, although that is not to say that NFs don't say it either.

    The problem is the purported undermining of an intellectual belief because of its supposed relationship to an emotional one. Perhaps non-NFPs are more inclined to see this link and dismiss it. This in itself is a "genetic fallacy"; nevertheless, I think it's one that is often committed around expressions of Fi.

    A lot of people seem to have difficulty in comprehending how/why an intellectual belief is/can be founded upon an emotional one. I think that, because NFPs vaolourise emotions while other types do not, there is, then, almost a necessary valourisation of logic via negation (i.e. emotions are rubbish; logic is better) in other types. The fact that these two differing types can (and do) come to the same opinions regarding life/the world/politics etc. seems to become null and void once a dissection of the method by which each type has come to this conclusion is dissected; emotions appear to be an always diluted source.

    Facing those that do not store any value in emotion often results in a mutual disconnection. When speaking of emotion, there seems to be an ever-present tendency to conflate emotion with its pejorative aspects by default, thereby making emotion necessarily embody qualities such as moodiness/stubbornness/self-indulgence. This makes is difficult for Fi to operate because it appears that everyone is slinging mud. It causes a feedback loop similar to this:

    Code:
    No-one understands what I mean --> People think I am being difficult because I am contesting their interpretations --> People are being cruel to me because they think I am being needlessly difficult --> I have to defend myself against this personal onslaught --> Now everyone thinks I'm just complaining for the sake of it --> No-one understands what I mean
    I find there are no problems at all when people allow for the fact that reasoned/reasonable decisions can be based on emotional input and that emotional input does not dilute the veracity of the final decision.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  8. #138
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    You are right about NFPs taking things personally - we naturally tend to internalize what others say about us. My ISTP father is baffled by how I do this. If someone says something abusive or rude to him he shrugs his shoulders and walks away without the slightest affect on his mood. I, however, cannot do so, as much as I have often wished I could. No matter how hard I try I can't depersonalise my interaction with the world and struggle to emotionally distance myself from such situations.
    Ti, and in particular, Ti + Ni, is quite capable of entering a mental space where words don't hurt. As an Ni-dom, I do the same thing. Very rarely, once in a while, some set of words might hit me in a painfully emotional way, but for whatever reason, I've learned not to hit back: not out of a sense of right and wrong, but rather because as much as I dislike emotional pain, I much more strongly dislike choosing a course of action that I regard as useless, pointless, unproductive.

    One thing I've noticed, especially in forum/internet space, is that Ti tends to make playful, pokey jabs. I'd not noticed it before, because a lot of the time the jabs don't even enter my radar, but I've since had a few MBTI-knowledgeable NFP friends point it out. "Ti is mean," they'll say.

    No, it isn't that Ti is mean, or that Fi is nice, or anything like that; that's just the impression given. Rather, it pokes and jabs, because Ti is the subjective, internalized judging; Ti types consider it rather rude to express ideas in the Te way, direct and to-the-point. Ti will present ideas in a roundabout way, just as Fi will present its holistic "feeling ideas," and for the same reason.

    It's personal to them!

    Fi/Te will talk about ideas in a "direct way", such that the ideas are their own entities. The statement isn't "I think that maybe thus and such might be the case," but rather "Thus and such is true!" Notice that the former contains the phrase "I think ...": the implication is that the idea is very much part of oneself. This is a typical Ti approach. Notice that the Te approach has removed the "I think" along with the "maybe" and the "might." The "I think" is removed because it's just an idea, do be discussed and debate as much as any other idea. Often, in the Te perspective, there is a good degree of empiricism and collaborative evaluation, so it isn't just "I think" but rather, "A lot of people have studied this, not just me, and even if it might be refined, this core of the idea is recognizably true." This Te perspective necessarily distances the idea from oneself, so the idea can be safely discussed, without fear of any sort of emotional (Fi) harm should the idea fail in some way.

    Ti/Fe does the same thing with "feelings." In the Ti/Fe perspective, it is the feelings/values/customs that are "objectively true" and derive their truth from empiricism and collaborative effort. It is "feelings" that are impersonal, as weird as that might sound. (I suspect that it is this property of being "impersonal" that makes Fi read Fe as less than genuine, when nothing could be further from the truth. The Fe is how one deals with "feelings", it is not how one feels feelings.) So for Ti/Fe, it's one's ideas that are personal, and the feelings that are communal, while for Fi/Te, one's feelings are personal and the ideas are communal.

    So, when Ti is "being mean," so to speak, it is speaking tersely and directly, which will often come out as Fe: terse and direct Fe feels mean. Especially for a Ti dom/aux, Fe doesn't develop the skill to soften such blows until much later in life, and even then, old habits die hard. So when Ti hears something that it thinks is stupid or silly or otherwise "unreasonable," it comes out as kind of an Fe admonishment, "Stop being so unreasonable," rather than, "Could you please clarify that for me? I don't understand what you mean."

    The trick for Fi to deal with this, especially with Ne, is to learn to recognize the pattern, such that one understands what is really going on: that usually someone criticizing an idea in a "mean way" is just employing a valid manner of expression, in a Ti/Fe sense. Other Ti/Fe types won't take it as "mean," but interpret it in their own context. The "attack" isn't "personal." It just feels that way. It's OK in the Ti/Fe sense to express oneself that way, because talking about your idea in that way is off limits. This is especially the case since usually Fi is expressing some kind of Fi-understanding, which linguistically maps to Fe, so Ti/Fe talks about it in Fe-ish terms, which turns around into feeling like an "attack" Fi-wise, even though it's just simple crosstalk: two people talking about the same thing with very different modes of speech.

    Basically, my instincts tell me (however right or wrong this may be) that if someone uses negative, emotive language when critiquing my argument, they have effectively personalised the discussion; they have taken an objective, dispassionate discussion and rendered it subjective and therefore personal.
    In other words, when Ti/Fe expresses ideas in Fe mode, it ceases to sound objective or dispassionate to Fi/Te (in Te dispassionate mode), and it is rendered subjective (Fi) and therefore personal.

    A good NFP friend put it to me this way: it is best to assume that other people are nice and mean well, and that any harsh words are merely accidental. Yes, this means that once in a while, a real player with bad motives might come along and take advantage of one's kind spirit, but it does a world of good for avoiding the stupid fights that never needed to happen in the first place.

    What surprised me when I heard this: I'd been living like that for years, except with a slight twist. I don't assume that they're nice, per se, but I do assume they have their reasons, and most people aren't so stupid as to gratuitously verbally attack others "just to be mean," and those that are that stupid are not worth my time. So I assume it's just a misunderstanding until they prove that they really are that mean/stupid, at which point I don't attack, I ignore.*


    I think you'll find that NFPs are often quite capable of remaining emotionally removed from a situation until others bring negatively-charged language into the fray, thus provoking us to react emotionally. We view such language as a weapon; you shouldn't wave it around haphazardly without expecting us to draw swords too.
    You kind of hurt your own point, here. "I'm perfectly reasonable until someone else is unreasonable." Yeah, and so is everyone else, each with their own definition of "reasonable."

    I am about to play with words, here, but there is a concept that is very much parallel to this: replace "reasonable" with "respectful."

    One thing I've often heard, especially from younger folks, is that they'll show respect to someone IF that someone shows them respect.

    Can you guess where that leads?

    Some misunderstanding is interpreted as disrespect, so one becomes disrespectful in turn, at which point the original person, who intended no disrespect (though may not have been as overtly respectful as the subject demands), is now fully justified by this principle to become disrespectful.

    The loop that Adasta describes is the same thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    No-one understands what I mean
    --> People think I am being difficult because I am contesting their interpretations
    --> People are being cruel to me because they think I am being needlessly difficult
    --> I have to defend myself against this personal onslaught
    --> Now everyone thinks I'm just complaining for the sake of it
    --> No-one understands what I mean
    Therefore ...

    In order to be respected, you must be respectful.
    In order for people to be reasonable with you, you must be reasonable.
    In order for people to make an effort understand you, you must try to understand them.

    But not just that ...
    When someone is disrespectful, be respectful.
    When someone is being unreasonable, be reasonable.
    When someone doesn't understand you, maybe it's YOU that doesn't understand THEM.

    And in all cases, don't attack. Not even to "defend yourself." Such attacks do not defend your integrity, but rather violate it. If it's wrong for them to attack you, even assuming that they mean it, you commit as great a wrong by attacking in return.

    Keep in mind, I'm not saying "don't defend yourself," but answering an attack (real or imagined) with an attack changes the discussion into a fight, and the discussion of the original idea dies. By not attacking, by not entering the fight, you remain able to defend your ideas, refining their expression such that they are better understood. This is how you defend your integrity.

    *After all, "ignorance is bliss!"

  9. #139
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    such an awesome post uumlau!
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #140
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Excellent post. The last few Fe/Fi exchanges as well as that ENFPs being controlling thread have just sort of reinforced those ideas for me. I guess when I was asking what I should be doing differently, that's what I was getting at. I couldn't see where the alarm bells had gone off, because from the way it looked to me, I had been respectful (in my language), and when I got more blunt, I thought it was very clear as to why I was.

    As far as I can see, the main thing we can do is try to understand how the world looks to each other and what types of language are felt as being hurtful even when they aren't intended in that way. In practical communication terms, do you think that rephrasing everything in Fi/Te language would be better for Fe users to do (risking the possibility of a bad translation into a language not their own)? Is just a preamble explaining the thought process better and where the differences lie so that the person has a better chance of receiving the intended message a better route to go?

    One of the biggest things I've appreciated about this site is that it is like a sped up version of real life. We all have access to more in depth discussion and other people's interchanges with each other than normally is possible and we also have more occasions where conflict can be pursued in a somewhat controlled manner. Not that I think it is good to intentionally look for fights - if there's anything I've learned in the last few years is that everyone's behaviour does make sense from their perspective - the trick is figuring out what that is and where you view and the other's diverge. That often is not possible until a person is put into a situation where they are not on their native territory. That's when they discover what is the same and what is remarkably different that they had always just assumed was the universal approach to something.

    I'm often interested on here to see where an ENFP may make some light-hearted comment in response to what I would take as a snipy or dicey remark myself. They don't register it in the same way because it is not felt as an attack on what is more important to them. I'm seeing now that depending on the Fi/Te or Fe/Ti orientation of the person, the same remark may be meant in an entirely different way and also will be taken much differently depending on who the recipient is. Similarly, I've seen other Fe/Ti users engage in arguments with ENTPs where they don't take the raillery personally, whereas an NFP may. Thanks to all of you who have been willing to engage enough that these differences can be brought to light and inform future interactions.

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