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View Poll Results: Fi ONLY: Do you feel safe to freely share your thoughts about Fi on TypoC?

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  1. #91
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    If you want adulation for an unpolished performance, pick your audience appropriately; do your act where only NFs can get at it.
    who's asking for adulation? all anyone's asking for is an open space - a forum, literally - where discussion can occur without the dismissal of ideas because they're not pretty and polished and in agreement with the proper authorities.

    Shame is good. Shame is a reality check. Everyone is subject to it equally. Shame teaches us lessons.
    yeah, like you should hide yourself from the world, dissociate yourself from your body, and perhaps eventually kill yourself because you're not accepted. shame isn't a reality check, because it's not reality. analytical types aren't robots, and Fe doms aren't superficial, and Ne doms aren't flakes. the problem with shame is that it suggests something that's not true: it only gives one side of the story, and that's the side that's not yours. think about it - there's no shame in the context of no other people. shame is entirely a social feeling brought on by rejection, either real or predicted. it relies completely on the outside perspective, and pushes you away from trusting yourself. it's not good. if anything, shame is mainly a bullshit means of control by people who don't have the balls to deal with ideas that are unappealing to them.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    FineLine I appreciate your attempts to create balance in the debate. I certainly don't believe we are entirely blameless and if you look back in the thread I made several posts regarding this. But please don't mistake my, at times, passionate language as being indicative of my perspectives being black and white or lacking balance. Just because I have a strong view doesn't mean I haven't considered the issues you and others have raised. Don't belittle my views or those of the other XNFPs here as being simplistic and ignorant just because you disagree with them.
    So you agree with what I said; you just didn't like how I said it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    And regarding your last post: PeaceBaby's statement wasn't aggressive in any way and there was no need for such snarky abrasiveness. Please don't add unnecessary fuel to the fire.
    Fair enough. She kind of caught me by surprise. I found her post rather cryptic. I don't even know why she brought that stuff up.

    I don't know what "typical behavior" would be for her or for anyone else. I don't need to hear the posting histories of the participants in those threads. While it might be vaguely interesting, it would be way too unwieldy. So I'm just trying to establish some boundaries. The threads in question have stood on their own thus far without any need for background biographical information on the participants or their posting history. So let's leave it that way. PeaceBaby doesn't need to hear my life story to discuss this issue, and I don't need to hear hers.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    who's asking for adulation? all anyone's asking for is an open space - a forum, literally - where discussion can occur without the dismissal of ideas because they're not pretty and polished and in agreement with the proper authorities.
    In that passage I was simply suggesting that she post in the NF Private Forum. Then the responses will be from people who presumably see the issue through the same prism as her.

    By comparison, the open forums are tougher. People in the open forums view issues through many different kinds of prisms. Some will nitpick at the details, others will want to see a polished final product before they treat you seriously, and so on. I've been here off-and-on for years, and it's always been like that. People (including me in the past) complain about problems with the open forum, but the madmins respond that you have to let people express themselves as they see fit even if it means that the debates get a little crazy at times.

    In the meantime, the Private Forums were created as an antidote for the craziness of the open forums. If the open forums wear you down, take a breather in the friendlier atmosphere of the Private Forums.


    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    yeah, like you should hide yourself from the world, dissociate yourself from your body, and perhaps eventually kill yourself because you're not accepted. shame isn't a reality check, because it's not reality. analytical types aren't robots, and Fe doms aren't superficial, and Ne doms aren't flakes. the problem with shame is that it suggests something that's not true: it only gives one side of the story, and that's the side that's not yours. think about it - there's no shame in the context of no other people. shame is entirely a social feeling brought on by rejection, either real or predicted. it relies completely on the outside perspective, and pushes you away from trusting yourself. it's not good. if anything, shame is mainly a bullshit means of control by people who don't have the balls to deal with ideas that are unappealing to them.
    The context for that passage has already been clarified. Keps pointed out that this type of shame is about "self-shame" when you fall short of attaining a personal goal. It's not about active public shaming by outsiders or bullies. I added: "...I was talking about getting by on what you're good at (your Dom function), and then one day failing badly and realizing that you need more tools if you want to handle more complex roles." Hopefully that would be a learning experience rather than cause for committing suicide.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1397606

  4. #94
    Senior Member Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    Thank you skylights for the quick response.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i think the difference that i personally feel is that when a Fe user goes against a Fi user, they tend to direct a whole group at you. you get ostracized, hurt in others' eyes. when a Fi user attacks you... well, that Fi user really doesn't lead anyone else against you. they may say things that are distasteful to a group, but at least it's a one-on-one thing. it seems more fair when you're attacked by a Fi user because it's up to others to decide whether the attack is valid or not. they don't just turn everyone against you, like a Fe user.
    If possible, could you give a example with no names involved? I think I know what you mean, but I do not think I have seen it done here in the discussions. However I'm willing to concede that I may be blind. I've seen individuals attack, but not in an attempt to turn a group against the victim. I also know that giving an example may inflame this thread, so if not comfortable, don't worry about it. As for the bold, what's the difference? Both Fe and Fi users have to justify the attack otherwise others won't see it as justifiable. If there is no justification why do it?

    though i think it's a lot about what fidelia and Oro and i have been fleshing out in the controlling ENFP thread - that Fi/Te conversation really revolves around critiquing thoughts, and protects feelings, while Fe/Ti conversation revolves around critiquing feelings, and protects thoughts. to me, being kicked out of a group without my idea being considered because of who i am is not just displeasing, it's deeply hurtful. i feel ashamed, and wrongfully oppressed. i assume that it's not such a big deal from the eyes of a Fe/Ti user, and i guess it'd seem like more of an unkindness to consider my idea and then shoot it down - though that's not true in my eyes. i'd feel more validated for the group taking the time to consider my idea, especially if they critiqued it. (even better if they like it, but at least critiquing indicates that they care enough about me to take the time to consider me an equal, with potentially valuable ideas to contribute.)
    I guess I cannot say I relate to this; I prefer critiques of both feelings and thoughts done privately; but can withstand critique of thoughts publicly. However I do not expect myself to be perfectly congruent with all Fe users all the time, so I can see it being true. Differing background histories can change a perspective easily.

    question - how do Fe users perceive closing someone out of a group?
    Personally, don't close someone out of the group unless they are threatening individuals within the group. Any voice can sing well in a choir; to lose it is to change the choir.

    I wish I didn't have to hit and run and hopefully my questions were not too nit-picky, but I'll be back on Sunday to catch up.
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  5. #95
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    I've only been following the last few posts and I think this new convo with FineLine is the kind of "amongst Fi's" quality discussion the OP was mentioning so Bravo!

    To answer the OP honestly I would say that for the most part, I do - *now that some trolls who shall not be named no longer frequent this forum*. --> Happy banana dance. Seriously, I used to wonder how 1) some people could be such overt attention whoring [pick your invective of choice] and 2) how people could just as obviously take the bait each and every time. You can't be trolled people unless you take the bad candy from the stranger. It really makes me wonder sometimes how much individuals are able to discern genuine attempts at discussion and overtures at friendship/neighborliness versus provocation for amusement and just being a dick. It confuses me because, without naming names or pointing fingers, it seems sometimes that members are way too accommodating to straight up dicks and then seem to want to pick a fight with someone who has a genuine question or comment regarding Fi. Another witty quote (if I do say so myself) - it takes a whole village to create a derail.

    The nature of Fi is to be piqued. I remember my friends and acquaintances would LOVE bugging me, teasing me, provoking me to get a rise out of me because they KNEW I would react. It took me years to learn enough self-restraint to calm those reactions (which, for Fi doms/aux's you know is a beast!) and put on a calm face and wait for people to move onto another target or even better, I would never begin to get a reputation as a someone who gets riled up easily. It's similar to the slightly bored/annoyed air you learn to put on in public spaces in urban areas (or on the internet! HAHAHA)

    Anywhoo, I do understand why folks want an Fi safe area - especially INFPs now that INFPGlobalChatter is gone and since INFPs frankly make very easy marks. However, I think it's important to discern what is disrespectful and hostile and what may seem negative on the surface but is a genuine desire to discuss Fi. Also, if someone is clearly just trying to get a rise out of you, either slap 'em down hard (though the friendly mods may have to hand out detentions to everyone involved, or not) or just ignore them completely.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    my ENFJ close friend and i have struggled over this in the past. one time we got in an argument, and 10 minutes later i was ready to joke around with her again. my point had been made; my pent-up frustration had been released. i felt no lingering negativity towards her. we'd both said our peace. the thing was... she was still pissed off. but she didn't understand how i could be okay again so soon, and she wanted time to cool off. which left me wondering - why did my little blow up get under her skin so much? the things i said weren't specifically tailored to her as much as they were an attempt to vocalize what i was feeling inside, and yet she took them very personally. i see why it could be taken that way, but it wasn't meant that way.
    I don't know if this dynamic might be similar to your case, but something you often see in relationships is a Distancer-Pursuer dynamic. Basically, pursuers want lots of emotional connection; by comparison, distancers want a more independent relationship and feel smothered when too many emotional demands are made on them. So it sets up an obvious tension in the relationship: The pursuer makes demands, and in response the distancer snaps or barks at the pursuer in order to push away the pursuer and to create some distance between them. Once the pursuer withdraws, the distancer feels fine and bears no ill will toward the pursuer partner. But the pursuer partner is now in a funk and is feeling hurt.

    Although such a rejection can seem very personal, it'll help if the pursuer sees that the problem lies with different views of personal space and is not a rejection of the pursuer as a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i assume it works in the same way for Fi users needing to understand that Fe/Ti attacks on our feelings aren't meant to attack who we are.
    Sure. Fe/Ti types will often describe a Feeler's influence on a thread as "disruptive." What they're trying to describe is a dynamic: The Feeler is emoting heavily in a thread or environment that's presumably more geared toward a Thinker approach. They're not putting us down as individuals; they're usually just suggesting we turn down the volume on our emoting so that we're not blasting the Thinkers in the thread with static or wrenching the thread from one side to the other.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I've only been following the last few posts and I think this new convo with FineLine is the kind of "amongst Fi's" quality discussion the OP was mentioning so Bravo!
    Thanks, CzeCze! Good to have your input!

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Anywhoo, I do understand why folks want an Fi safe area - especially INFPs now that INFPGlobalChatter is gone and since INFPs frankly make very easy marks. However, I think it's important to discern what is disrespectful and hostile and what may seem negative on the surface but is a genuine desire to discuss Fi. Also, if someone is clearly just trying to get a rise out of you, either slap 'em down hard (though the friendly mods may have to hand out detentions to everyone involved, or not) or just ignore them completely.
    Good point about the loss of INFP-gc. Some INFPs may still be feeling a little adrift and homeless.

    Nice point, too, about discerning the difference between disrespectful/hostile posters vs. those who are merely negative but otherwise want to participate.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keps Mnemnosyne View Post
    Any voice can sing well in a choir; to lose it is to change the choir.
    But isn't there usually also need for a tenor? Or doesn't the choir want this? I suppose the tenor can also sing with the choir. But I do think it's better if the choir accompanies the tenor. This will make the most lovely song. /JK

    To the OP. If I am Fi dom, as some people have claimed in another place. I am weary of expressing myself openly, but really great when one can, I am most certainly convinced I'll be harassed, and indeed am. I just ignore it though, for the most part. So my audience can't be a random large group in such matters. Fe may be fine. But inferior Fe is what I am sceptical about. I fully agree with skylight regarding the shame aspects. This is foul play. And I suspect some Fe users do this deliberately as a tactic. But fidelia expressed this great and I kinda understand that. I just doubt that the group is as uniform as the Fe user may perceive. Making MacGuffins post also dubious about who actually have the blind spot. Not sure there is a rule here. Both ways will create disruption. But it does not really matter as there will be one part that is stronger. It's really easy to blame the introverted function. As it does not tend to have a group for assertiveness. In a way a group is also just one opinion. There is just more power, not necessarily more true.

    Like this, my impression as well. Not sure if this is if Fe is used by people who don't master it very well.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The problem here is Fe users only check with certain people, ones they "trust". Of course, those people are thus most likely to contribute to confirmation bias.
    In general I don't need to express Fi overly much. But sometimes I like to do it. And if it was more accepted, I may do it a lot more. Not sure.

    Ps-I have no idea about the specific incident here. But I've had my own challenges with Fe sometimes. So wanted to find out more. Fluid communication is more constructive. And it seems both sides should give space. To really get the symphony going with both tenor and choir.

    Great thread, I feel illuminated

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I have reported posts, although it takes quite a bit of provocation for me to do so and I don't like to. However, nothing has ever appeared to change on the forum as a result.

    Actually, now as I think about it, no one has ever even gotten back to me to say my comments have even been read and that someone is investigating how I feel I am being treated. What typically happens in these situations?

    So at the moment, to me it feels like my concerns are dismissed without consideration, because there's no feedback to tell me I've been heard and am actually being taken seriously.
    That's a problem with the format of the forum software. Each reported post generates a thread of its own in the modbox, where mods may hash out the issue and decide on a course of action. Often one post gets reported by several users. It's difficult to give feedback unless someone contacts the reporting poster directly. You may not see anything if a warning is given to the offender. Or maybe you'll see a thread edit or split.

    Primarily, mods don't want to get into a long discussion with posters about what actions were/weren't done. Its aggravating for the mods, esp. when a significant percentage of reported posts don't require any mod action because people are just frustrated and angry.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
    How can you know you speak for the group, when you say they are seen as negative and disruptive(feeling the air?)?

    How do you know this from a third eye perspective? That a few people who disagree or just don't get it projects their own feelings onto the group, and as such illusionary come to this conclusion. (I don't like Fi user-must protect the group).

    I'm not sure what Fi is, besides descriptions and peoples experiences, and maybe myself. But your above observation seems fraught with possibility for falseness, even worse, creating untruth by accusing Fi user of creating unrest.

    I dunno. I have seen these situations. People so consumed by subjectivity that they think they speak for the whole group. And if you run a poll you may get ex 7 to 47 votes against the pov one feels affect the group. And still one will insist one speaks for the group.

    I don't get it. This behaviour I've seen from some T identified people using inferior Fe. When all evidence points to the contrary, except from a small sample. While most Ts wont experience this form of illusion, some will, and this puzzles me.

    What if a T isn't capable to accurately measure the emotional state of the group? Is it then wise to do so and assume one speaks for the group? And then like for real creating unrest when the group rebels against you, or becomes manipulated? And the Fi user didn't really have anything to do with this, except triggering you.

    Ok, I see I went around my tale here, as this will still mean it was the Fi user that triggered the unrest. Is this what is meant?
    I am speaking for no one but myself.

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