[ENFP] enfp loop and slamming mumbo jumbo

[Aleksei]

what is this looping and te-bitchslapping that everyone talks about that enfps do?

Pretty much my standard post.

 

[Kalach]

The only real Te aspect to the Panty Toss is the suddenly announced conviction that something new--my feeling--exists in the world, and that it WILL NOW SHAPE THE WAY ALL THINGS MOVE FORWARD!!! YOU CAN'T STOP ME!!

Normally, "my feeling" is hidden. But when the ENFPs are having their Te Party, "my feeling" is asserted to be recognizable and governing for others.

There may be argumentation presented along the way too. But since this "Te" is drawing on the inner world for the substance of what is to be asserted as real and directive, that argument is likely to be somewhat, eh, ISTJ. Which is to say, its not impossible that it be completely and entirely correct. But it'll be angry and include wild, self-serving connection-making.

One gets ENFP Te Bagged.

I am real. I am me. You can't stop me. RAW.

All my friends will think I'm real too. You can't stop me.

Etc.




Prestige functions FTW.

 

[Rebe]

Ahh, let me explain. I withhold the "bitchslap" because I feel my brain start to rationalize how i feel and how i should feel. I go through this internal process before I ever, EVER confront anything. I think to myself "Should this make me angry?..Did this person respond that way because they're having a bad day?...is this worth discussing or just letting it go by...Am I in the wrong, Did I do something horrible to make this person do this..." And usually by this time, the moment has passed, the burning feeling is gone, and I just continue about my day. Now, after a while, the things do build up and I do confront or snap, it all depends.

I bitch at people closest to me more than complete strangers. If I let myself get angry at every little thing, I would be angry all the time and explosive all the time like some sort of psychotic person. If I ever Te-slap you, it means I love and care for you deeply. And if you're a stranger, it means you crossed several lines to get me this angry to the point that I waste energy and words and passion on your stupidity and awfulness. If I get angry, it means I care. When I get angry, I go all out. It's like flipping myself inside out and unleashing every ounce of fury in me.

 

[Elfboy]

as an INFP, I (usually) try to understand where the bitch slappee is coming from and see what their real problem is and any other factors that I am unaware of. if the bitch slappee has other reasons/issues that they are dealing with and are willing to change, that's all I really care about. However, the sensitive exterior of the INFP makes it ever more volatile when we do use the Te bitch slap (although I gotta admit, I do get a bit of a power trip from it). Te for me goes from friendly and polite, to assertive, to authoritative to swift decisive social bitch slap. I am in college currently and lots of people treat me as if I'm still a kid, so I have to check lots of people who think they can get away with disrespecting me.

 

[sculpting]

Yes, I've noticed the INTJ Fi Sissy Whine, and it amuses me because you guys think you're so objective and tough, but you can be SO damn fussy and persnickety it's almost comical at times.

True. "The INTJ Sissy Whine" I Heart Si naming or arbitrary things. At least three times a day the 3 yo INTJ gives me the hmfph icy cold shoulder and wonders off to pout with the death glare plastered on his face. He's cute but when the 40-70 year old INTJs do it, well, after seeing the 3 yo...I cant stop laughing...their faces are so much the same. It is a bit endearing.

So the ENFP bitchslap seems to be near universal and come in a lot of flavors.

I think it goes through several stages...the first stage is totally Te drawing of boundaries. I suppose this is mostly an Fi defensive measure which triggers a Te action plan. Esoteric is very correct in that age helps define if a particular Fi value should be extroverted and defended. Is it really a cause worth standing up for or a fight worth fighting? Or are personal boundaries needed for protective purposes?

Since many, many ENFPs recognize the idea of embedding Te logic as an Fi value, Te action plans with some logical underpinning can become the action plan of choice. Also-since we have a baby ESTJ inside of us-when we externalize Te it wont look like an IXTJ Te. It will look more like a Te dom-we will get bossy as fuck and can be controlling. Aux Te is a tool for Pi. Tert Te is a tool being used in the service of Fi and Si. On the surface the looks a lot like Te Doms.

On the downside-if Te logic is held as an Fi value-sometimes we will become Fi offended if others critique our logic. The response will be emo-y and angstful and not be taken seriously. Tp prevent it seems to require being able to implement a repression of the Fi defensive response.

Taken a step further-like when we are really being hurt, you will see a much more vigorous response. NEVER back an ENFP in a corner and then poke our Fi. We turn into little demonic venom spitting monstrosities. There are many warning signs this is happening. We get "trechy", irritable, our eyes bulge, then we say "I need ttom to think on this", "Leave me alone right now"


Hmmm my hotel is on fire...gotta go.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Hmmm my hotel is on fire...gotta go.

OK, is your hotel really on fire? Wow! Hope you're OK. (If this is some hip, urban phrase for something else, I'm gonna be really embarrassed.)

 

[Kalach]

^ and Ne plays no part?


Pfft, ENFPs... if they were FJs they'd at least be organised Fs, but no, they have to go ripping off other people's functions in a vain attempt to matter.


And even then will still be fucking around doing what they really do: extraverted intuition displays clear as day for you, like some stupid HUD, how things could be different, and you're prompted by interest and curiosity and a fundamental inability to not look down dark holes, to follow up on this, and it becomes more pressing and more interesting when the different path seems like it will validate and instantiate, or most particularly further illuminate, values and convictions. The only scent of Te in this story is a background view of the world as mechanistic, albeit pockmarked by the curious and exciting sinkholes deep and beautiful wells of other people's personal feeling.

Curiosity about intellectual things is not a sign of Te. With a Te perspective, you'd be seeking answers to all the questions you're curious about. And is that what you do, or do you seek more and more information, expecting that the answers will be compiled later, when you've removed yourself from the world and started to reflect on inner things?


And this overabundance of ENFPs with the kickass Te means spreading through this world are the waves of love and personal concern emanating from all the INTJs with the ass hugging? kissing? groping?-- ass [something beautiful] Fi.






Or, to put it all more simply, as far as propagandists go, you're quite successfully undermining the public substance and utility of Ne. By your own description, compared to Te, Ne is "just..." whatever.

So much for N pride.

 

[skylights]

interest and curiosity and a fundamental inability to not look down dark holes, to follow up on this, and it becomes more pressing and more interesting when the different path seems like it will validate and instantiate, or most particularly further illuminate, values and convictions

story of my life

i don't think Ne ever doesn't play a part. but Te is the more mysterious part of the loop to us, so naturally it's more interesting.

there is no lack of pride. don't you see, that we're simply giving Ne preference?

Curiosity about intellectual things is not a sign of Te. With a Te perspective, you'd be seeking answers to all the questions you're curious about. And is that what you do, or do you seek more and more information, expecting that the answers will be compiled later, when you've removed yourself from the world and started to reflect on inner things?

sure, we always seek more information, but i think there are stepping stones along the way. i don't feel like i'm drifting in an endless sea without anything solid to hold on to. plus you're talking about Fi answers and Te answers, which are pretty different - i usually know a Fi answer pretty instantaneously, but need time to articulate it (Te is helpful in that). Te answers take more work - sometimes experimentation. and i don't think there's one single answer i look for - Te helps whittle down the possibilities to what will work best in reality. Fi and Te answers also don't really always clash, imo. for me, Fi is more likely to have a single answer, but it can be manifest in many different ways. so it rules out some Ne possibilities, and it can bump Te answers down on the list.

 

[Kalach]

That's what I'm attempting to say.

My attempt is hampered by what I believe is a peculiar effect of Ni and Ne interaction, that the functioning of the one shuts down the function of the other. Here I am, insisting that there should be no further speculation on what really goes on because the conceptions are already clear enough to know something, which is a generally fine external world position for an Ni person to take, but not so happy for a person seeking possibilities in what is out there.


Ne is already structured by the outside world. It's already an objective perspective. If there's semi-conscious extroverted thinking going on too, that's a bonus (or a limit, depending on your view of cognitive functioning), but Ne products are already going to be somewhat orderly. From a purely Ne perspective, those products are not going to valued for their order, but they have it anyway. That, at least when Ne is dominant, seems like it'd be a more important factor than "it's Te" in being able to see structure and meaning of structure.

Eh, but there has to be some extroverted thinking going on. It's in the function order after all, it must have some role.

 

[sculpting]

OK, is your hotel really on fire? Wow! Hope you're OK. (If this is some hip, urban phrase for something else, I'm gonna be really embarrassed.)

oh, no, dude it was totally on fire! I am visiting new york in a tiny little town called Pearl River.

The heater on the roof started flaming so six firetrucks came up and they evacuated the building. The man I am here working with was getting the shower and decided to ignore the alarms. Eventually he got out of the shower, got dressed, just as they turned the alarms back on and let us back in. He could have died if it had been a real fire. By the time it was put out I had to go visit my customer, so couldnt come back and reply.

 

[sculpting]

OK, is your hotel really on fire? Wow! Hope you're OK. (If this is some hip, urban phrase for something else, I'm gonna be really embarrassed.)

oh, no, dude it was totally on fire! I am visiting new york in a tiny little town called Pearl River.

The heater on the roof started flaming so six firetrucks came up and they evacuated the building. The man I am here working with was getting the shower and decided to ignore the alarms. Eventually he got out of the shower, got dressed, just as they turned the alarms back on and let us back in. He could have died if it had been a real fire. By the time it was put out I had to go visit my customer, so couldnt come back and reply.

 

[Thalassa]

lol glad you and your co-worker are okay...

 

[sculpting]

Go Fire!!! woo-hoo!!

So-I didnt get to finish the first post.

Continuing....

If an ENFP draws a Te boundary that is Fi motivated and you keep pushing them, you get incinerated. There appear to be two ways this is done-

a) the Fi emo vomit-basically the enfp throws massive amounts of emo pain at you in an attempt to make the other person feel how much pain they are in thus retreat. This makes sense if Fi can be thought of as an emo mirror. You hurt me and thus I will externalize my pain, to force you to empathasize and feel that pain-thus back off.

b) The Incinerative bitchslap-This is an event of catastrophic proportions. The enfp has been pushed too far back and now vomits Fi pain combined with razor sharp, precision insults and hatred. Words and phrases that normally never even are part of normal vocabulary become scalpels of sharply honed destruction to cut the other person as much as possible. The state isnt planned really, but is more like a volcanic eruption.

Notice-the*precision*-Ti perhaps? The ENFPs say they often regret the aftermath and almost feel like they were someone else as this occurs. This feeling of someone else is pretty typical of the jungian complex. Jung describe complexes as portions of our unconscious (shadow functions) being used in combination to protect our ego (dom-aux) during periods of intense stress. The complex acts like a mini personality to step up and shelter the ego.

I suppose the TeSi boundaries in an ENFP can be thought of as a psuedo shadow complex.

I am certain that the above Fi vomit and Incinerating bitchslap are examples of Jungian complexes, likely involving really nasty aspects of out Fe/Ti shadow functions being externalized.

However Jung didnt say complexes were a get of jail card for being a douchebag or being an emo puker. What Jung said was that we have to learn to recognize the complex as being part of our unconscious that rises up out of control. Before we can control it, we have to understand what it is.

In this thread you see examples of ENFPs speaking of learning to control the TeSi boundary setting aspect of our unconsciousness as we learn to use Te and Si more effectively with age. At 20 we may just get all emo and bossy, but by 30, we typically externalize and set Te boundaries with a bit more wisdom. So by recognizing those shadow aspects of ourselves we learn to use them and control them productively.

I dont know how much we can ever learn to control the incineration and the true emo externalization-those beebe shadow complexes, I presume-maybe instead just learn to see them coming and learn to retreat and regroup???

The TAKE HOME LESSON-IF THE ENFP REQUESTS SPACE AND TIME>>>LEAVE THEM ALONE. Respect the Te boundary because you care about the enfp, then later, once the enfp has settled, then broach the subject again.

 

[sculpting]

Obviously, I'm not an ENFP, but the concept doesn't make much sense to me. I've definitely observed the behavior in ENFPs, but is it really Te? If Fi is what's been violated, why would Te react? Te doesn't really care whether it's liked or not, only that it's able to achieve it's goals. It's not a personal function, which to me makes the idea of a "Te bitchslap" pretty nonsensical. It's more likely an outward manifestation of Fi than Te doing the "bitchslapping."

What this feels like from the inside-it feels as though Te is being used to accomplish Fi goals. Thus Te is totally a tool, just as it is a tool for Ni in INTJs. However Te can be a very strong, powerful force.

In another way, Fi can decide that logic is the best way to achieve Fi goals-ie Te efficiency/logic/structure becomes an Fi value-however this may be when enfps state opinion as fact-we "believe" in the Fi sense, our Te solution to be true.

Also, we can just Te in isolation, although this doesnt seem to be energetically favorable for very long. Te being used in the service of Si perhaps.

 

[Kalach]

You know how you're not making clear distinctions between mechanisms? And how more particularly you're mixing up the content of concepts by using suggestive labels without much explanation? And how you've even on a few occasions directly misdescribed concepts, "Te can be a very strong, powerful force" for example (as if logic that aims to be mechanical and impersonal is motivating in the same way inner feeling is, nudge nudge)? Yeah, that's how much Te is being used here.

Stupid pattern matching isn't Te. It's propagandized Ne.



And the Panty Wave is incinerative now? ENFP Strikes Back has powerups.

 

[Kalach]

Ne is extroverted intuition. As such it is focused on the external world. I'll say the definition of "external" is "whatever isn't viewed as internal". "Viewed as" makes the difference for such arcane doings as reflecting upon oneself: one can use Ne on oneself so long as one looks at oneself, or the parts or experiences of oneself, in mechanical or objectified terms.

Now, whatever the hell it is Ne does or is or produces for the person, it is objective. It is bound by its focus to respect the world. It would seem indeed that intuition finds its path by perceiving that structure.

Thus, why are you all wasting your time asserting your competence with extroverted thinking? Are you under the impression that your dominant function isn't very perceptive of structures and meanings?


Fine, whatever. There is no ruling Te out of the FP personality. There is however such a thing as not knowing what you're genuinely good at and where it comes from. This thread needs more Victor.