[ENFP] ENFPs- Question from an ISTJ

[skylights]

a few things that occurred to me...

1. individual differences - EW, lady x, and petra all explained very well how relationships with ISTJs haven't worked out for them, and EW especially in how it's simply not practical to keep pursuing that route for her. i know that personally, i experience a particular frustration with INFJs. i know a couple quite well and we just have a tricky time balancing things when we're together... somehow both of us feel like we're giving more than we're getting, and there's some kind of weird communication gap. i have a hard time seeing how a relationship with an INFJ could really work out longterm. i'm not ruling out the possibility, just saying that it's unlikely given past experience. if it's like this for other ENFPs with ISTJs, it's easy for me to see how it could seem like the ENFP isn't trying. it's hard when you always run into the same frustrating barriers, when those barriers are integral to a deep need you possess. demoralizing. and perhaps a large percentage of ENFPs experience that individual ISTJ frustration.

2. less consideration of the longterm before jumping into relationships - i think most ENFPs would really like to believe they can make it work with anyone, so they may be more willing than some other types (eg more practical ISTJs) to venture into a relationship despite warning signs and/or past experiences that suggest that things might not quite work out. this is true of Ps in general as well.

3. one-sided complaining versus figuring out what went wrong - as for ENFP complaining, a lot of what certain others think of as complaining / avoiding blame is us trying to figure out what happened. i used to get into this problem with my ESTJ boss. i would try to work out what happened to make me forget to turn in a paper or something, and she'd tell me to stop trying to rationalize it. but that was never my goal - i accept fault readily. i just wanted both of us to understand why it happened.

 

[Habba]

Each time I read about these stereotypic views of ISTJ, I get irritated. It might be because I'm oversensitive for the matter, as I've been overtly ISTJish at younger age.

ENFP and ISTJ sure come from a different planet, but that doesn't mean they couldn't communicate or share common interests. Sure, their communication has to be trained a lot for them to understand each other well enough to live in a relationship. I personally believe that every challenge won only adds depth to the connection (and every failure takes away from it). So I think that any pair is possible, and shouldn't be shunned just for the sake of conflicting pairs. You just have to be aware of the pitfalls of the particular type match, and you are already one step closer to a working relationship.

Too easy relationship on the other hand might be taken as granted, and the lack of conflict migth lead to an undeveloped relationship in which certain matters are never questioned or challenged. Only challenge leads to growth.

 

[Patches]

Honestly Patches if anyone seems "not ISTJ" it's you, so I don't know how seriously I take your opinion on the matter.

I'm tempted to make a separate thread in the 'Whats my type' forum to discuss this, out of curiosity. (And to not derail this thread.) I know you've said many times that you think I'm an INTJ, but I honestly find the assertion that Ni is my dominant function laughable.

 

[alexx]

I was with an ISTJ for 6 years, and while I always knew something was "off", I though it to be an age difference thing and nothing more. When I discovered typology, things became a little more clear. I think in the end while we both loved each other immensely, we were both tired of trying so hard to make it work. The connection was deep, and he made great strides to understand my craziness - which I believe was done out of love for me, and not something that he would attempt for just anyone (co-workers etc).

ISTJ's can come off as controlling to some ENFP's, and I think that was the thing that made me distance myself even further from him. Had he tried to work as a team and communicate more clearly instead of trying to control the situation, or I doing something similar with him, it could have worked. I realize and admit now that I should have put in more effort and fought till the end, but something broke in me and I didn't.

Bottom line, my ISTJ was trustworthy, respectable, centered, honorable and steady. He was and still is a perfect example of a good man, which isn't necessarily an ISTJ thing, but a him thing.

 

[Thalassa]

I'm tempted to make a separate thread in the 'Whats my type' forum to discuss this, out of curiosity. (And to not derail this thread.) I know you've said many times that you think I'm an INTJ, but I honestly find the assertion that Ni is my dominant function laughable.

I would say in vent you act almost ENFP or ENTP, but of course ENFP is the shadow of ISTJ and vice versa (I had someone suggest on here once that I was an "unhealthy" ISTJ ) and some of the things you say about yourself (like wearing sandals in the snow) seem remarkably lacking in the sensible nature that Si doms tend to have. Of course, when I first encountered the ISFJ I talk to I was convinced that he was ISFP until I got to know him better and saw just how obviously ISxJ he is. It's possible that I just don't know you well enough...but then again, I don't understand why you don't think Iz is an ISTJ. Frankly he seems very ISTJ to me, and I don't see him as being wildly different than, say, Beat.

 

[Thalassa]

Too easy relationship on the other hand might be taken as granted, and the lack of conflict migth lead to an undeveloped relationship in which certain matters are never questioned or challenged. Only challenge leads to growth.

I kind of tend to agree with this, and I seriously wonder what really long-term relationship is "easy." Anything could be easy for a year or two, especially if there was a lot of physical chemistry, but even if you're supposedly compatible MBTI types, is your relationship really going to be "easy" for ten, fifteen, twenty years?

 

[Moiety]

^No but maybe it doesn't have to be THAT hard. As in all things, balance nay?

 

[alexx]

No relationship will be easy, they will always take work if you want it to "work". You get back what you put in but it shouldn't be a constant battle.

It felt like pushing opposing magnets together sometimes.

 

[Elfboy]

most of the ISTJ guys I met were too close to my level of maturity and didn't seem "vulnerable" enough for me. I find more cute, little brother types to be more attractive, which usually ends up being ENFPs, ESFPs or ENFJs. Enneagram is a bigger factor in attraction to me tho. I tend to like 2s, 4s, and 7s because they have personalities with a "younger" vibe and need someone who is more mature and responsible.

 

[sculpting]

Which leads me to the question I had for Oro: assuming that ENFP-INTJ and ESFP-ISTJ relationships are ideal (as some sources say they are), do you think that the switch to ENFP-ISTJ and INTJ-ESFP would be equally less ideal than the former two, or do you think one of them makes more sense than the other?

(note: I'm sure we all know this, but we're basically discussing the difference between PersonalityPage's/Keirsey's and Socionics' recommendations for ideal romantic relationships)

Socionics' "dual" relationship actually recommends the two partners have opposite perception preferences, while PersonalityPage/Keirsey recommend they be the same.

Well....I really HATE to go here...cause it means I have to stop talking about functions... but this may be a case where the individuals in question are key. I appear to have more freaking TeSi than 98% of ENFPs, thus I can take anything an ISTJ dishes out. INTJs are like fuzzy bunnies. The ISTP toughened me up rather well over the years, it appears. So the ISTJs who talk of hurting the ENFPs....well I dunno, I just cant get my feelings hurt like that any more. I have been in loud combative conflicts with my ISTJs in meetings, then we walk out and start planning our weekends and talk about our kids. It's just Te....problems have to be solved and we just move on.

However with respect to your question I'd argue the INTJ will be less satisfied with the ESFP than the ENFP. I have only seen one INTJ marry an ESFP. They are very happy, but it isnt in anyway about intellect. He is a CEO, she is a stay at home socialite housewife. They do seem blissfully happy, but I suspect the INTJ made a choice to sacrifice intellectual compatibility for emotional compatibility. Female INTJs I have known are even more picky about intellect. However over at INTJf there are some number of INTJ men who admit liking ladies that are beautiful but dont meet a high intellectual criteria and many of the INTJs say they enjoy the physicality and fun spirit of their ESFP friends......

The ISTJs would have to be able to get past the nontraditional aspect of the ENFP, but with an older ENFP like me, I suspect it is the next best combo after the INTJ combo.

Perhaps look to the symmetry in other types to repeat the same question-
ENTPs should be with INFJs....yet many report very happy relationships with ISFJs as well and so on.

But I suspect a Very NeFi ENFP might have a hard time with an ISTJ. There may-as the female ISTJ late in the thread highlighted-actually be a sex aspect as well, with male ENFPs having more developed Te, and female ISTJs having more Fi, thus it works at a younger age.

 

[Zarathustra]

However over at INTJf there are some number of INTJ men who admit liking ladies that are beautiful but dont meet a high intellectual criteria and many of the INTJs say they enjoy the physicality and fun spirit of their ESFP friends......

The ISTJs would have to be able to get past the nontraditional aspect of the ENFP, but with an older ENFP like me, I suspect it is the next best combo after the INTJ combo.

Yeah, the oppositeness of the ITJ-EFP dynamic seems to be special.

I agree that the ideal combo is probably Ns with Ns and Ss with Ss, but the next-best option might be the interbreeding of the species...

Perhaps look to the symmetry in other types to repeat the same question-
ENTPs should be with INFJs....yet many report very happy relationships with ISFJs as well and so on.

Well, c'mon... who couldn't report a happy relationship with an ISFJ...

There may-as the female ISTJ late in the thread highlighted-actually be a sex aspect as well, with male ENFPs having more developed Te, and female ISTJs having more Fi, thus it works at a younger age.

Hmmmm... I seem to have missed that post... makes sense, though...

 

[Thalassa]

However over at INTJf there are some number of INTJ men who admit liking ladies that are beautiful but dont meet a high intellectual criteria and many of the INTJs say they enjoy the physicality and fun spirit of their ESFP friends......

Yes. I've noticed some INTJ men with an over-emphasis on Se when it comes to things like picking mates. I've seen NTJs on forums say some of the most shallow things about women and say "well I'm just being objective." Nothing warms my heart like seeing statements such as "any woman who wears over a size zero isn't taking care of herself." I'll bet those INTJs would actually be happier with an SFP than an NFP...that also goes for certain INTJs who don't appear to like to be argued with or disagreed with, which ENFPs are inclined to do. *clears throat...coughcoughyouknowhoyouarecoughcough*

The ISTJs would have to be able to get past the nontraditional aspect of the ENFP, but with an older ENFP like me, I suspect it is the next best combo after the INTJ combo.

Yep, I think older ISxJs are able to get past some non-traditional ENFP traits, they've developed a sense of the random with their inferior Ne, and older ENFPs who have more Si might actually want a more traditional future with a mate.

 

[Moiety]

2. less consideration of the longterm before jumping into relationships - i think most ENFPs would really like to believe they can make it work with anyone, so they may be more willing than some other types (eg more practical ISTJs) to venture into a relationship despite warning signs and/or past experiences that suggest that things might not quite work out. this is true of Ps in general as well.

This is very well observed. ENFPs live in a fantasy world. Too future focused, not looking enough to the past to learn from their mistakes.

 

[Thalassa]

This is very well observed. ENFPs live in a fantasy world. Too future focused, not looking enough to the past to learn from their mistakes.

Speak for yourself. I have Si.

 

[Chloe]

am I the only one unsure do I learn from my mistakes?! Does this automatically mean I dont?

 

[Moiety]

Speak for yourself. I have Si.

Good for you.

 

[IZthe411]

am I the only one unsure do I learn from my mistakes?! Does this automatically mean I dont?

I'd like some discussion on that too, from the ENFP perspective.

 

[tkae.]

This is very well observed. ENFPs live in a fantasy world. Too future focused, not looking enough to the past to learn from their mistakes.

This is actually INFPs you're thinking of. ENFPs have enough of a connection to the real world to be as much present-focused as they are future-focused. They might not learn from their mistakes (they are Ps after all...), but as far as being too future-focused, that's one of the differences between INFPs and ENFPS.

ENFPs are active enough in the present world to be able to see when they're getting too far off into the future.

INFPs lack that connection to the "now" world and are much more likely to float away if you don't watch them carefully.

EDIT: That argument is clearly made from an outside perspective. From the perspective of what actually is "too much", they maintain a healthy level of situation awareness.

 

[Moiety]

^Dude, I'm an ENFP And active would not be the first word that comes to mind when I think of myself. When I say too future focused, I mean idealizing reality as if the future was full of green grass. We can live the moment somewhat erratically because we decided the future will be this or that.

But regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, NFPs are sufficiently similar between themselves imo for it to be true or false for both, depending on each particular individual of course.

 

[tkae.]

You're an extrovert.

That's the definition.

–noun
1. an outgoing, gregarious person.
2. Psychology. a person characterized by extroversion; a person concerned primarily with the physical and social environment (opposed to introvert).

–verb (used with object)
4. Psychology. to direct (the mind, one's interest, etc.) outward or to things outside the self.

In this way, no, we're not alike. NFP means that you look towards the future, yes, but your extroverted nature makes you much more aware of immediate flaws by exposure to them on a frequency far higher than an introvert with be exposed to them. In this way, you, as an ENFP are much more likely to learn from mistakes because you will repeat them more often.

You're much more suited for relationships because you have more experience with them.

You may not think you are, but you are