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  1. #21
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Hey IZ, you should ask CharmedJustice. She has been married to an ISTJ for several years. She might have changed her type to ENFJ but should give you insights...not sure she is still on.

    I have an ISTJ friend and we get along very well, much more steady than some of her other friendship. Basically accepting who the other is at their core and letting things slide more or less goes a long way. You basically have to accept that this person will do XYZ for the rest of their lives - can you accept that? I think in romantic relationships there is often less give and take and more expectations because everything is just more high-pressure. You may SAY you can 'put up with' something forever but you know you really can't and you can't give up the idea that the other person should change for you "if they really love you" and then things get ugly.

    I think for relationships particularly 'opposites attract' that's what both partners need to make it work - a lot of give and take.

    Also, I have noticed with my ISTJ friend when it comes to dating is that people assume she is a very stable person so they try to set her up with other very stable (SJ-ish) people. She said she was almost insulted basically because she wondered if people thought of her as boring or why they thought she would want someone who basically is not exciting. You know like the house of hufflepuffs or whatever their name is in Harry Potter? That's how she thinks other people see her when it comes to dating, or at least when it comes to setting her up with other people.

    Not sure if that answers your OP at all...
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  2. #22
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    The ISTJ/ENFP dynamic is tough, but an any type dynamic is.
    Some are easier than others.

    If you believe that all types have the same dynamic amongst each other, then you're missing the whole point of Myers Briggs. Being of one type or another is more than just liking apple martinis or enjoying getting caught in the rain. A type determines how a person sees the world, how she/he communicates, and what type of behavior she/he is comfortable with. The 16 types don't exist in the ether, independent of each other. The study of type dynamic is a major portion of Myers Briggs. If you don't believe that, then you shouldn't have even brought up the ENFP/ISTJ thing in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I'm more interested in an honest assessment of steps taken to make it work because you love the person first.
    What do you love her for, exactly? This isn't a rhetorical question.

    I'm guessing it's not for what she does or says, because that is what you are trying to fix.

    The idea of "love at first sight" is horseshit, btw. You cannot love a person without knowing anything about them. There is only lust at first sight. Love takes a while to develop - through communication, understanding, and finally cherished acceptance.

    Here's an idea - write down a list of things that annoy you about your ENFP, and then write down a list of things that that you like about her (and don't list physical traits). If the annoy-list is bigger than the like-list, you are wasting your time... and everyone elses for that matter.

  3. #23
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    [can't frickin multiquote for some reason -- want to respond to Oro as well...]

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Let me ask this then....if your ISTJ (or S, whatever) can keep up and follow where you are going, but maybe that's just not their mode of communication- what does that mean to you? Like they can understand Your French but their preference is to speak German or something like that. While I fit the ISTJ stereotype more than I do INTJ- I see strong similarities. I just don't feel like the barrier between me and you is so different that I couldn't make a relationship work with a person. I've NEVER had the problem.
    Hmmm... well, here's what I have to say:

    First off, as I stated, I like ISTJs, and I get along with them well. Being ITJs, we are both Pi doms, which we follow up with a Te and Fi, and, whatever the difference between Ni and Si, all that other stuff together, makes us very similar, in my opinion.

    I do, however, feel that ISTJs tend to be a bit less intellectually explorative than INTJs. You guys are more down to earth, while we're more up in the clouds, or, perhaps to word it a bit more kindly to INTJs: we tend to be more abstract thinkers, while ISTJs are more concrete and factual. The latter one is probably a better description, as it accentuates the positives of both styles...

    So, to your question: what does this mean to me? Well, that's all a matter of context...

    I ain't trying to date an ISTJ chick (not to say that it couldn't work or anything...), so I haven't really thought about that much.

    With regards to an ESFP, however, it means A LOT.

    I just don't think that, for the most part, an ESFP will be able to stay with me the way an ENFP will be able tol... nor the way an ISTJ will be able to (which might actually differ from the way an ENFP will stay with me) for that matter...

    Which leads me to the question I had for Oro: assuming that ENFP-INTJ and ESFP-ISTJ relationships are ideal (as some sources say they are), do you think that the switch to ENFP-ISTJ and INTJ-ESFP would be equally less ideal than the former two, or do you think one of them makes more sense than the other?

    (note: I'm sure we all know this, but we're basically discussing the difference between PersonalityPage's/Keirsey's and Socionics' recommendations for ideal romantic relationships)

    Socionics' "dual" relationship actually recommends the two partners have opposite perception preferences, while PersonalityPage/Keirsey recommend they be the same.

  4. #24
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    I personally have an easier time with SFJs. I'm sure both ISxJ types share an ability to be grounded, organized, orderly, and sensible - which is something some ExFPs are strongly drawn to and want - but I have this feeling that an ISFJ can guide an ENFP to seeing his point of view without correcting her as harshly because of command of Fe. The S/N divide probably also doesn't feel as sharp because of the coziness that can spring from shared Feeler-style communication.

    Now, I want to give you encouragement, though, because ISTJ is ENFP backwards (Si/Te/Fi/Ne) and the shared functions in older, mature ENFP/ISTJ couples probably works better. I know it's much easier for me to relate to an SJ who has some command of his or her Ne.

    I've found that certain members of both IxTJ types (and yes that includes INTJs as well) can be overly authoritative, and that's a big turn-off. I really hate feeling like I'm having a conversation with a probation officer. But of course, not all INTJs or ISTJs are like that, but this may lie at the heart of some of the complaints you see ENFPs having about ISTJs.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moiety View Post
    I love when you do my taxes.

    Ask every male ENFP how much they love ISTJ chicks and then come talk to me. ENFP women who like ISTJ men are usually insecure and want a provider and someone who seems to be "together". They want to be taken care off and that screams dependency issues. What they really NEED though is emotional connectedness. That takes communication and dropping down the stoic act...and more importantly...being ok with it.
    It's okay to be attracted to "togetherness." That doesn't necessarily scream "dependency issues." Who the hell are you to tell other people what they need from a relationship?

    I often wonder when I read your posts if you've ever even had a relationship, because you appear to see all relationships as co-dependent.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I rarely see ISTJs complain aobut the ENFPs. We're more likely to want to work it out.
    This is something I like about SJs, collectively...a trend toward wanting to work things out once the relationship has been established. Shared past is enough to make a commitment to making it work. I find something incredibly endearing and "safe" about that.

  7. #27
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Hey IZ, you should ask CharmedJustice. She has been married to an ISTJ for several years. She might have changed her type to ENFJ but should give you insights...not sure she is still on.

    I have an ISTJ friend and we get along very well, much more steady than some of her other friendship. Basically accepting who the other is at their core and letting things slide more or less goes a long way. You basically have to accept that this person will do XYZ for the rest of their lives - can you accept that? I think in romantic relationships there is often less give and take and more expectations because everything is just more high-pressure. You may SAY you can 'put up with' something forever but you know you really can't and you can't give up the idea that the other person should change for you "if they really love you" and then things get ugly.

    I think for relationships particularly 'opposites attract' that's what both partners need to make it work - a lot of give and take.

    Also, I have noticed with my ISTJ friend when it comes to dating is that people assume she is a very stable person so they try to set her up with other very stable (SJ-ish) people. She said she was almost insulted basically because she wondered if people thought of her as boring or why they thought she would want someone who basically is not exciting. You know like the house of hufflepuffs or whatever their name is in Harry Potter? That's how she thinks other people see her when it comes to dating, or at least when it comes to setting her up with other people.

    Not sure if that answers your OP at all...
    I'll reach out to CJ, thanks.

    I'm definitely the 'take you as you are' type, and am not trying to change anybody. The right things have to be THERE before anything progresses. Being introverted I'm not, and haven't dated seriously much, but when I do, you got me.

    I feel your friend!I wanna be the serious one in the relationship! But I'm also silly, goofy in some respects. I have a huge capacity to have fun. I can't have a girl who cannot take a joke. I want a girl that can bring that side out of me. I'm the introvert, the homebody- I want a girl who's going to bring that side out of me.
    If she's fun, playful, likes to laugh, but can sit back and can get deep/intellectual as well, I'm hooked.

    Thanks.

  8. #28
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    [can't frickin multiquote for some reason -- want to respond to Oro as well...]







    Hmmm... well, here's what I have to say:

    First off, as I stated, I like ISTJs, and I get along with them well. Being ITJs, we are both Pi doms, which we follow up with a Te and Fi, and, whatever the difference between Ni and Si, all that other stuff together, makes us very similar, in my opinion.

    I do, however, feel that ISTJs tend to be a bit less intellectually explorative than INTJs. You guys are more down to earth, while we're more up in the clouds, or, perhaps to word it a bit more kindly to INTJs: we tend to be more abstract thinkers, while ISTJs are more concrete and factual. The latter one is probably a better description, as it accentuates the positives of both styles...

    So, to your question: what does this mean to me? Well, that's all a matter of context...

    I ain't trying to date an ISTJ chick (not to say that it couldn't work or anything...), so I haven't really thought about that much.

    With regards to an ESFP, however, it means A LOT.

    I just don't think that, for the most part, an ESFP will be able to stay with me the way an ENFP will be able tol... nor the way an ISTJ will be able to (which might actually differ from the way an ENFP will stay with me) for that matter...

    Which leads me to the question I had for Oro: assuming that ENFP-INTJ and ESFP-ISTJ relationships are ideal (as some sources say they are), do you think that the switch to ENFP-ISTJ and INTJ-ESFP would be equally less ideal than the former two, or do you think one of them makes more sense than the other?

    (note: I'm sure we all know this, but we're basically discussing the difference between PersonalityPage's/Keirsey's and Socionics' recommendations for ideal romantic relationships)

    Socionics' "dual" relationship actually recommends the two partners have opposite perception preferences, while PersonalityPage/Keirsey recommend they be the same.
    I have 2 INTJ confirmed friends. They are night and day though. But It's never been an issue of the content of our discussions, maybe we'll have opposing views (and both are NEVER wrong LOL).
    I definitely see more similarities over differences.

    The IxTJ girl doesn't sound like they'd do it for me. I can't say that for sure though, I might get caught by her mind, and she'd have me hooked!

    But I see what you mean man...I dunno, I wish I could find out exactly where I fell on the typology continuum.

    Personally I see Si/Ne or Ni/Se more apt to work than Si/Se Ni/Ne.....I dunno- the different perspectives are actually compimentary- both are operating on a Dom/Inf level, where, if both are mature, are likely to want to have that side brought out. Not to say I can't get with ESFPs. I dated an ISFP. She was a good girl, but no mental spark. I definitely need the E.

  9. #29
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I personally have an easier time with SFJs. I'm sure both ISxJ types share an ability to be grounded, organized, orderly, and sensible - which is something some ExFPs are strongly drawn to and want - but I have this feeling that an ISFJ can guide an ENFP to seeing his point of view without correcting her as harshly because of command of Fe. The S/N divide probably also doesn't feel as sharp because of the coziness that can spring from shared Feeler-style communication.

    Now, I want to give you encouragement, though, because ISTJ is ENFP backwards (Si/Te/Fi/Ne) and the shared functions in older, mature ENFP/ISTJ couples probably works better. I know it's much easier for me to relate to an SJ who has some command of his or her Ne.

    I've found that certain members of both IxTJ types (and yes that includes INTJs as well) can be overly authoritative, and that's a big turn-off. I really hate feeling like I'm having a conversation with a probation officer. But of course, not all INTJs or ISTJs are like that, but this may lie at the heart of some of the complaints you see ENFPs having about ISTJs.
    Don't sleep on Fe now....I'm sure the SFJs got a manner that is probably warmer, but they can be as bad as the Ts.

    I'm actually trying to explore how strong my Ne is. These written tests are garbage, too. How have you figured out where you fall with your Si? I do know my Ne's better than my Fi, if that's allowed. LOL But I'm all about developing both, and I'd love to do it with my love.

    Bottom line: If it's love coming from the right place, the ISTJ can and will deliver. If they can't, they'll die trying.

  10. #30
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    This is something I like about SJs, collectively...a trend toward wanting to work things out once the relationship has been established. Shared past is enough to make a commitment to making it work. I find something incredibly endearing and "safe" about that.
    Yeah well that was the basis of my last relationship. We had history. We had fun. Horrible as lovers. I wanted to work, though. I really did.

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