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  1. #21
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    Without a doubt, I remember being terrified to bring home any grade under a Distinction, through highschool, then when i realised i couldn't be prefect all the time it shifted to more of an amicable people pleasing type stance. Thankfully now that i'm older i don't do it as much, but it's a conscious effort NOT to try and put others first.
    I can relate this so much.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    I thought I commented, ah different thread.

    If so, why? Hinges on health, I know I used to.
    Do INFPs want to please everyone or just some people? Affirmed and assertive people want to please that which feels right when the time is right.
    Is this something an INFP is compelled to do or can they choose not to please? Nope, its a defensive choice, a reaction from environmental confines.

    There is good intention, goodwill and wanting to create harmony however at the expense of energy, and that energy has to go somewhere.

  3. #23
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Well I agree values is where it's at, but I don't think that excludes the enneagram. e9's values are much different than e4's. 9's (often religious) try very hard not to be selfish and value others needs above their own. 9's repress their sense of self, meanwhile 4's amplify and overvalue theirs. That kind of ties in to what I was saying in the previous post. Don't get me wrong, 4's are caring and all, but if something isn't okay with them internally, they will never surrender their wholeness for it. Meanwhile 9's put everything else first, so the internal can be left alone and be whole.
    The thing is, the 4 soul child is 1, and 4 integrates towards 1, which means a relatively healthy 4 may show a lot of interest in the needs others, having more refined values which have developed beyond vague internal concepts to translate into real world applications. There is an inner moral perfectionist in the 4 (and the INFP for that matter).

    I do agree that the 4 will still see this as some extension of their own identity. Instead of protecting some inner wholeness under the guise of peace-making, the 4 will actively promote an image of that wholeness in their actions. This makes 9 seems more "group friendly" over all, but 4s have slightly more of a leader side, but a lone wolf kind of leader (setting an example by striking out on their own, not leading a group). The healthier the 4, though, the more comfortable they will be within a group, as their individuality is not easily threatened.

    I believe the 9 integrates towards 3, which might make them have more image awareness, so that the 9 includes their own needs into the equation more. I suppose they're on the offense a bit more to see their values realized instead of just passively mitigating to keep peace & guard the values from "profane eyes" (to quote Jung).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #24
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The thing is, the 4 soul child is 1, and 4 integrates towards 1, which means a relatively healthy 4 may show a lot of interest in the needs others, having more refined values which have developed beyond vague internal concepts to translate into real world applications. There is an inner moral perfectionist in the 4 (and the INFP for that matter).

    I do agree that the 4 will still see this as some extension of their own identity. Instead of protecting some inner wholeness under the guise of peace-making, the 4 will actively promote an image of that wholeness in their actions. This makes 9 seems more "group friendly" over all, but 4s have slightly more of a leader side, but a lone wolf kind of leader (setting an example by striking out on their own, not leading a group). The healthier the 4, though, the more comfortable they will be within a group, as their individuality is not easily threatened.

    I believe the 9 integrates towards 3, which might make them have more image awareness, so that the 9 includes their own needs into the equation more. I suppose they're on the offense a bit more to see their values realized instead of just passively mitigating to keep peace & guard the values from "profane eyes" (to quote Jung).
    These are all good points to add, most of them I hadn't considered. In the circumstances you describe, a 4 would probably have less of an ego about helping others than a 9 (or it would at least be close). However, all of that doesn't really conflict with what my central point was: I was just explaining that the e9 INFP is where the INFP pushover/helper stereotype comes from. A 4 integrated to 1 is no pushover, regardless of how selfless they are, neither is a 9 integrated to 3. But stereotypes are not based on specific cases, I was speaking in generalities.

    To be more concise: All I am saying is that most e4 INFP's are more assertive than most e9 INFP's.Therefore, if I had to speculate as to where the INFP doormat stereotype comes from, I would say it came from people's dealings with e9 INFP's.

    Also, I like the "profane eyes" quote.

  5. #25
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    ^ I agree with that. I wonder how e5 & e6 INFPs play into this (less common types). Are the e5s the least concerned?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #26
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ^ I agree with that. I wonder how e5 & e6 INFPs play into this (less common types). Are the e5s the least concerned?
    So, I hardly feel like I have sufficient breadth of experience to generalize about INFP 5's (so others feel free to jump in, especially if you don't have a 4 wing like I do), but does seem like parts of e5 are compatible with being helpful:

    • Being useful/accomplished/knowledgeable fits in well with being helpful in those areas (In fact, I think INFP 5s are more free with sharing domain knowledge than some other 5s might be)
    • Wanting time and energy to focus on domain of expertise leads can lead to appeasement. (As in, "I'll be helpful now and get it out of the way so I can get back to my own interests")
    • Wanting emotional distance combined with Fi leads to a certain amount of "pleasing" behavior, because it avoids being drawn into emotional intensity unnecessarily


    However, many 5 qualities do not lead to being helpful (especially for the non-trivial cases). These include:

    • Wanting to remain the detached observer
    • Avoiding external commitments when possible
    • Fear of being either overwhelmed or unable to adequately meet the needs of others
    • Tendency to strike a "I won't require too much of you if you don't require too much of me" bargain in relationships


    Personally, I find myself to be fairly helpful for short term events (even if the short term effort is relatively high), but leery of helping that requires any kind of long term commitment of time and energy. I tend to commit to very few things, but when I do commit I commit deeply.

  7. #27
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    External behaviors that look like a desire to please others can have a variety of internal motivations. Some people seek approval, but others want to avoid conflict or unnecessary hassles. I'm sure there are many more possible motivations. I know that I have tended to keep the peace with people, but not to win approval so much as to avoid trouble. It is usually easier to not fight or bring about negativity in people. Once negativity is triggered in someone it is difficult and complex to get back to a place where communication can take place. It's simpler to get neutral or pleasant reactions from people.

    I'm borderline on the P/J pole. People look really complex to me, and I tend to be uncertain about where their boundaries lie. Once they get angry or have a button pushed, I can't tell where they regain self control, so I try to avoid bringing that out in people. I also feel uneasy when people like me too much because I'm afraid it could swing back and forth. I think I prefer having a sense that people are reasonable and they make sense, rather than extreme positive or negative reactions. When people are reasonable it seems like they would generally like one another, or at least recover quickly from negativity when given a reason. I guess that is in part because I tend to think that way. I find negativity and disapproval to often be motivated by self-protection.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    I think Seymour did a great job with e5's but I already started typing some stuff on them, so I will post it anyway. I also decided to tackle INFP e6's.

    In the case of an e5 INFP, I would say that while they don't feel an incessant need to help others, they would try and be supportive to those close to them...from a distance. They would be very good/insightful listeners, but don't expect much of an outward expression of warmth, as they can be very detached (which I suppose is sort of the case with many INFP's anyway, but moreso with e5).I find if I have to talk something through with my e5 friend, he is much more emotionally accommodating and comfortable on the phone, so I allow him that distance.

    Meanwhile an e6 INFP would be much more likely to reach out. 6's want allies to reassure and protect them, and so they would help/please others in order to gain support. When they approach you, they often have a nervous but friendly smile on their face that screams: I am no threat to you! I want to help, please don't hurt me The more pronounced the 7 wing is, the more obvious this jittery desire to be liked becomes. So I would say that e6 INFP's are more people-pleasing than e4's. And since they are more externally engaged than 9's, they can often come across as bigger pleasers. However, e6's are suspicious of "the other" and tend to be less friendly to people who aren't close to them or part of their group. This is sort of a Fi thing. 9's are much less discriminating, so they treat just about everyone the same.
    Last edited by Forever_Jung; 11-11-2010 at 12:32 PM.

  9. #29
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Not to please others, no.

    People can go fuck themselves for all I care.

    But I do have an incessant need to do right. I have a need to make the world a better place, and to not do anything to leave the world a worse place than I left it.

    You can please people without making the world better. Hookers and lobbyists do it all the time.

    Doing right and making the world a better place is something totally different. And while it means that I'll do others right, which often pleases them, it doesn't mean my main goal is to care about their happiness. To that end, I don't.

    EDIT: So obviously good people will be pleased by me doing the right things, which means that my needs and their pleasure often overlap. The line where the overlap stops is with people who aren't genuinely good, and whose pleasure isn't necessarily derived from me doing the right thing.

    That's where I could care less about pleasing people. If they're a bad person, doing the right thing often displeases them. Thus is why I could care less what people as a whole want or need, but I follow my own inner compass and have faith that by doing what I know is the right thing to do, the people who deserve to be pleased will be pleased, much like how healthy wildlife is a sign of a healthy ecosystem.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Onceajoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Not to please others, no.

    People can go fuck themselves for all I care.

    But I do have an incessant need to do right. I have a need to make the world a better place, and to not do anything to leave the world a worse place than I left it.

    You can please people without making the world better. Hookers and lobbyists do it all the time.

    Doing right and making the world a better place is something totally different. And while it means that I'll do others right, which often pleases them, it doesn't mean my main goal is to care about their happiness. To that end, I don't.

    EDIT: So obviously good people will be pleased by me doing the right things, which means that my needs and their pleasure often overlap. The line where the overlap stops is with people who aren't genuinely good, and whose pleasure isn't necessarily derived from me doing the right thing.

    That's where I could care less about pleasing people. If they're a bad person, doing the right thing often displeases them. Thus is why I could care less what people as a whole want or need, but I follow my own inner compass and have faith that by doing what I know is the right thing to do, the people who deserve to be pleased will be pleased, much like how healthy wildlife is a sign of a healthy ecosystem.
    Tkae - spoken like a true One - I mean that as a complement. You make a sound argument for NOT pleasing others. Just surprised to hear this from an INFP. Thanks for offering a different perspective.

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