[INFJ] INFJ: Dealing with Infatuation

[eclare]

I want to say that I've scored as a 2, a 6, and maybe a 9, but I've also consistently scored high on 4 and 5. Bear in mind these are all on free online tests.

If I ignore test results and just go by description, I would guess that I'm a 4w5. The 4 definitely makes the most sense in terms of integration and stress (1 and 2, respectively).

The one thing that I am absolutely certain of is that I'm not an 8.

 

[Onceajoan]

The goods about being with an ENTJ:
May draw you out.

Yeah. I think Es are good for INFJs that way. They can bring out the fun, lighter side of our personalities which is often so very serious.

You'll always know where you are at with him and it would be difficult to inadvertently offend.

I wouldn't totally agree here. You might know where you stand in a general sense based on where they are emotionally, how they view the relationship, what their expectations are...but you don't necessarily know emotionally where you stand. ENTJ will not always share this with you (why is it relevant anyways? NTs feel very confident with what they think. Communicating their thoughts is not a problem. However if you make assumptions based on their words solely, you could be wrong. INFJ intuition helps though does not prevent "inadvertently offending." You've got to watch the behavior more than the words since words could be a protective front. They'll NEVER admit to hurt. Although you might figure it out later when they start acting funny in complete contradiction to what they said earlier, "that didn't effect me."

Drawbacks:

- It may feel uncomfortable and awkward for him to discuss things when he does not feel sure about them. That lack of admitting to anything that is not decided and attached to a course of action may make you feel like you are the needy one, when that is not true. It may also make him seem inflexible or arrogant to you because he doesn't often express needing help or advice.

You mean NEVER expresses need for help or advice.

He may not always acknowledge or stop to think about how his emotions are influencing his actions. This is a realm where he feels less comfortable, may think it's irrelevant, or ignores and so he'll usually avoid it unless there's an urgent reason why he cannot.

This relates to what I stated above. You don't always know where you are with an ENTJ because what he communicates are THOUGHTS. FEELINGS dictate behavior to some extent which he won't acknowledge or doesn't understand. And honestly, an ENTJ often doesn't even know what his feelings are - feelings related to action are outside of conscious awareness. ENTJs see themselves as rational. Certainly their behavior is rational as well. Right?

- Can insist that others not address any issues that make him feel uncomfortable, which makes it difficult sometimes to resolve conflict.

Things that make ENTJs uncomfortable are feelings that they have done something that suggests incompetency, dependency or weakness, anything of a touchy/feeling nature, demands in general, demands of more time, more tenderness, more sex, more patience, more listening which all speak NEEDY to an ENTJ.

You may need to find someone else to do your main venting with and discussion of problems (which we need to do to better clarify our situation to ourselves and choose a course of action). He will want to jump to the solution before hearing what it is that is frustrating you.

Well isn't that a male thing in general. Men are action oriented. They want to fix things ASAP. Men don't want to talk about it except for maybe an INFP.

He may seem domineering or bossy to you after awhile. Don't take it personally.

In my relationship with an ENTP I never took it personally. It was just highly annoying and obnoxious. It wasn't a reflection of myself or my worth. I got tired of fighting battles :steam:when compromise would have been the better and least destructive solution.

The more dispassionately you can state what it is, the better.

This is HUGH! Do not get emotional. Appeal to logic. Although you run the risk of appearing not logical enough. Don't include too many details or too many possibilities "what if this....what if that..." or "if this happens..." Just "stick to the facts, maam" and the bottom line. Appeal to what it's going to mean for him. What will it look like to him. Is it something he can visualize. Realistic and doable are more important than ideal.

Be forthright about your needs. We feel selfish doing that and would prefer someone to notice what we need, particularly because we try to do the same for them. In this case, you should only give as much as you can do happily without reciprocation and then if you want anything specific, request it. This works much better than taking his lack of reciprocation as a measure of his thoughfulness. He will also appreciate the clearer communication. (Fuzzy communication is annoying and frustrating for the Ts I know). You will need to become more blunt, he may need to become less blunt. You will need to be less accommodating and he will need to become more accommodating.

Unfortunately, the INFJ is more likely to be accomodating in the sense of trying to make the relationship work than the ENTJ. Getting an ENTJ to be more accomodating is extremely difficult unless he can see the benefit to him. Clearer communication means directness and brevity and an appeal to logic.

One thing that I hope will be helpful is that my preference for F over T is relatively small. Back in my early twenties I would occassionally test as INTJ, and looking back I think my preference for Fe really didn't start to show until I was in college. Even then it took me several years to actually recognize that as a preference - I definitely tended to think of myself as a detached and "rational" decision-maker. Turns out I was just really good at rationalizing. Anyway, my point is that even if it's not my preference, it is at least one that I understand pretty well.

Eclare, I think it's good you have that balance of T and F. I actually stradle INFJ/INTJ myself. Even though I'm sensitive and in touch with my feelings, I can still be logical and rational when I choose to communicate in that manner. The difficulty I have with NTs in general is their seemingly inability to compromise or see the other person's perspective. My relationship with them often consists of a battle of the wits, who will win this contest?, who has the most logical argument? I say, who cares. It's not always about being right. That's why I have consciously chosen to develop more of my F side now that I'm older.

Ultimately, I think that the only way to make an ENTJ/INFJ relationship work is that the INFJ has to have enough T (based on MBTI personality results) to be able to adapt to the ENTJ. I don't see the adaptation happening the other way around.

 

[Onceajoan]

If the ENTJ is an 8w9, many of these issues become less glaring.

How so? With all due respect, I don't see it.

Eights are known to be pretty headstrong (well strong, in general). Eights don't back down. They go what they're after. Great leaders for these reasons. Also great champions of the underdog. Still....

Possible problem areas between Eights and ANY NF, I think:

-Insensitivity - Eights can sniff out weakness. Would not want to be involved with someone who displays vulnerability or neediness. Or if they did develop a relationship with someone who displayed these qualities it would be out of a need to protect or dominate. Still, perceived weakness would not be respected or tolerated. (Aside: I have a neighbor who is an Eight, a macho construction worker. He told his wife while she was battling anorexia, "you're weak", "you're pathetic" Not exactly the message someone who's on the verge of starving herself to death needs to hear. He's obviously an unhealthy Eight).

- Anger management issues - As gut types, Eights are known to be passionate, vocal about their discontents and can, at times, be very angry! If you're in a relationship with an Eight, you'll need to learn to develop a thick skin and be able to defend yourself. Don't ever let them intimidate you or feel they can run you over. You need to be able to hold your ground. Not sure how well all sensitive INFJs would do on this test of strength. Although, if you're willing to play the passive party, it might work out for you.

- Compromise - Eights are not known for compromise. They use their strong personalities and strength of character to get what they want. I don't think the soft word, "compromise" is part of their vocabulary.

Hmmm. This is based on what I know of type Eight. Could be wrong. Could be missing something.

-

 

[Fidelia]

Totally agree with you, ma'am! I found very similar issues with my ESTJ. I had to do most of the adapting. Little awareness of how emotional state was affecting actions and very difficult for me to know what emotional state was except by deductions. No interest really in figuring out his own emotional state because he saw it as irrelevant until suddenly he was surprised or embarrassed by it exploding out (first admission of "I love you" with tears, no less!) If emotion is displayed, it is in the form of anger. Also no admitting to any weaknesses. Just wasn't sure if I was over-extrapolating. My uncle is an ENTJ and from the outside it looks very similar, but I'm not married to him and I've not been in a relationship with one. Just friendships, where if you get frustrated you can take a break from them.

I found it interesting what you said about words being a front. I found that for sure with my ESTJ, but when I started a thread inquiring about how T types experience hurt, how it affects their behaviour, or what someone should do that inadvertently offended when they become aware of it, it appeared to me that they felt that I was looking at it from a too Fish point of view and that they didn't really experience hurt in that way. They may not, but I realized a couple of years after certain incidents occurred that I shouldn't have believed the assured way in which he said things or took action because there was a lot more uncertainty and sometimes hurt/unsureness than I would have imagined. Don't know how you can ever address that with Ts (one person's suggestion was that generally with males, sex is about it). I can't imagine it's a healthy way to live.

I did have an interesting talk with a successful ENTJ who said that he felt the reason many people like him were so successful was because their insecurities and fears drove them to try to prove something, whether to themselves or someone else. That's the closest I've seen to any kind of admission of vulnerability, but we were not particularly close.

 

[eclare]

Regarding the 8w9, I think DiscoBiscuit was probably referring to the w9 balancing out the 8, which makes sense to me.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Hmmm. This is based on what I know of type Eight. Could be wrong. Could be missing something.

Indeed you are missing something.

How so? With all due respect, I don't see it.

Taken from my Leadership, and the 8w9 thread:

8s with 9 wings are an interesting subtype. The 9 wing considerably softens the traits of the 8, making the 8w9 much harder to recognize and understand than a pure 8. Don Riso notes that the 8w9 often holds their power "in reserve". 8w9s are often underestimated, because they can look like mild-mannered 9s one day, only to unleash their aggressive 8 side the next.

8w9's are more likely to let anger build up within themselves, which may manifest in constant bitterness and harshness. Like 8w7's, they view conflict as a way of life, but do not enjoy it as much, since when they are in rebellion against the outside world, they are also in rebellion against a part of themselves that would rather do without the hassle and zone out. They are slow to conflict - they would often rather stand "en garde" and wait for their adversary to "cross the line" - but when they involve themselves in conflict, their hostility has a relentless, sado-masochistic quality to it. They willfully numb their tender feelings, and show a tough face to the world. 8w9's are conspicuously sensitive to the issue of personal boundaries - both their own and everyone else's. "Stay out of my business, and I'll stay out of yours," they will often say in a measured tone that conveys great respect for the other while making it subtly clear that they will not be crossed. When they lighten up, they can be intensely devoted to the protection of others, especially defenseless people whom they have affection for. However, trust does not come easily to them. "Every person's survival is his own business."

Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor. May have an aura of implicit, simmering anger rather like a sleeping volcano. Slow to erupt but when they do it's sudden and explosive. When entranced, the 9 wing brings an Eight a kind of callous numbness. They can be oblivious to the force of their anger until after they've hurt someone. Calmly dominating, colder; may have an indifference to softer emotions. If very unhealthy, they can be mean without remorse or aggressive in the service of stupid ends. Paranoid plotting, muddled thinking, moral laziness. Can be vengeful in ill-conceived ways, abuse those they love, don't know when to quit.

Taken from Enneagram Instsitute http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/typeeight.asp

Level 1 (At Their Best): Become self-restrained and magnanimous, merciful and forbearing, mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. May achieve true heroism and historical greatness.

Level 2: Self-assertive, self-confident, and strong: have learned to stand up for what they need and want. A resourceful, "can do" attitude and passionate inner drive.

Level 3: Decisive, authoritative, and commanding: the natural leader others look up to. Take initiative, make things happen: champion people, provider, protective, and honorable, carrying others with their strength.

-Insensitivity - Eights can sniff out weakness. Would not want to be involved with someone who displays vulnerability or neediness. Or if they did develop a relationship with someone who displayed these qualities it would be out of a need to protect or dominate. Still, perceived weakness would not be respected or tolerated. (Aside: I have a neighbor who is an Eight, a macho construction worker. He told his wife while she was battling anorexia, "you're weak", "you're pathetic" Not exactly the message someone who's on the verge of starving herself to death needs to hear. He's obviously an unhealthy Eight).

Lol. The vulnerability of INFJ's is what attracts me and my need to protect the innocent.

- Anger management issues - As gut types, Eights are known to be passionate, vocal about their discontents and can, at times, be very angry! If you're in a relationship with an Eight, you'll need to learn to develop a thick skin and be able to defend yourself. Don't ever let them intimidate you or feel they can run you over. You need to be able to hold your ground. Not sure how well all sensitive INFJs would do on this test of strength. Although, if you're willing to play the passive party, it might work out for you.

As I have matured into a man, my ability to control the when, where, and intensity of my outbursts has grown by leaps and bounds. I am really quick to apologize if I hurt the ones I love accidentally. I have been working on being more cognizant of the effect my emotions and actions have on other people. In lieu of that, I have really been trying to work on my listening skills. The 8w9 is a mix of the challenger and the peacemaker all rolled into one. My nine is really strong, hence my pot smoking, and somewhat laconic ways... I also prefer to stay out of conflict until a personal line has been crossed. I'd be lying if I didn't also admit that I set up bait for that line to be crossed. Which is pretty much what I did in this thread. I noticed general anti 8 sentiment and (as I am wont to do) I set up a situation where someone could make generalizations about the 8, and placed myself in a position to oppose that generalization.

As you can see, just because one is an 8 does not mean they have to be yelling at you with CAPSLOCK all the time.

Some of us have developed more subtle and less traumatizing styles of conflict...

- Compromise - Eights are not known for compromise. They use their strong personalities and strength of character to get what they want. I don't think the soft word, "compromise" is part of their vocabulary.

Being both the Challenger and the Peacemaker, it often feels like I have 2 completely oppositional ideologies competing in my head, Machiavellian personal planning for advancement, balanced by a feverish commitment to integrity, altruism, and understanding.

If that isn't the blueprint for someone who would understand compromise I don't know what is...

 

[Lauren]

Totally agree with you, ma'am! I found very similar issues with my ESTJ. I had to do most of the adapting. Little awareness of how emotional state was affecting actions and very difficult for me to know what emotional state was except by deductions. No interest really in figuring out his own emotional state because he saw it as irrelevant until suddenly he was surprised or embarrassed by it exploding out (first admission of "I love you" with tears, no less!) If emotion is displayed, it is in the form of anger. Also no admitting to any weaknesses. Just wasn't sure if I was over-extrapolating. My uncle is an ENTJ and from the outside it looks very similar, but I'm not married to him and I've not been in a relationship with one. Just friendships, where if you get frustrated you can take a break from them.

I found it interesting what you said about words being a front. I found that for sure with my ESTJ, but when I started a thread inquiring about how T types experience hurt, how it affects their behaviour, or what someone should do that inadvertently offended when they become aware of it, it appeared to me that they felt that I was looking at it from a too Fish point of view and that they didn't really experience hurt in that way. They may not, but I realized a couple of years after certain incidents occurred that I shouldn't have believed the assured way in which he said things or took action because there was a lot more uncertainty and sometimes hurt/unsureness than I would have imagined. Don't know how you can ever address that with Ts (one person's suggestion was that generally with males, sex is about it). I can't imagine it's a healthy way to live.I did have an interesting talk with a successful ENTJ who said that he felt the reason many people like him were so successful was because their insecurities and fears drove them to try to prove something, whether to themselves or someone else. That's the closest I've seen to any kind of admission of vulnerability, but we were not particularly close.

With my ISTP ex-husband, I found that he hid a lot of his feelings behind a defensive front. I knew that he was trying to hide the feelings and I had to extrapolate what was going on. Sometimes I asked him but he was uncomfortable talking about what was not second nature to him: his feelings. He could often sound assured and confident but I knew (and sometimes he would say it) it was because he was hurt by an interaction and the only way he knew to respond was to appear to be confident and to not give a damn. I knew how much it hurt him but he would never admit that to anyone, nor show it. With my ISTP, sex made him feel whole again, I think. It was a way for him to feel that everything was good with he and I again. It didn't work that way for me, though I understand sex as a way to connect with someone who has difficulty connecting in other ways. I enjoy that connection and understand it (as a gay male friend once told me, I have a strong male side, which is true). I do feel that the release of sex and the connection can create a bridge for other things to discussed. But that's another topic

 

[Moiety]

How so? With all due respect, I don't see it.

Eights are known to be pretty headstrong (well strong, in general). Eights don't back down. They go what they're after. Great leaders for these reasons. Also great champions of the underdog. Still....

Possible problem areas between Eights and ANY NF, I think:

-Insensitivity - Eights can sniff out weakness. Would not want to be involved with someone who displays vulnerability or neediness. Or if they did develop a relationship with someone who displayed these qualities it would be out of a need to protect or dominate. Still, perceived weakness would not be respected or tolerated. (Aside: I have a neighbor who is an Eight, a macho construction worker. He told his wife while she was battling anorexia, "you're weak", "you're pathetic" Not exactly the message someone who's on the verge of starving herself to death needs to hear. He's obviously an unhealthy Eight).

- Anger management issues - As gut types, Eights are known to be passionate, vocal about their discontents and can, at times, be very angry! If you're in a relationship with an Eight, you'll need to learn to develop a thick skin and be able to defend yourself. Don't ever let them intimidate you or feel they can run you over. You need to be able to hold your ground. Not sure how well all sensitive INFJs would do on this test of strength. Although, if you're willing to play the passive party, it might work out for you.

- Compromise - Eights are not known for compromise. They use their strong personalities and strength of character to get what they want. I don't think the soft word, "compromise" is part of their vocabulary.

Hmmm. This is based on what I know of type Eight. Could be wrong. Could be missing something.

-

All of those will depend on MBTI as well. Not all 8s are ETJs.

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah, it's a bit of a catch-22 because I would have difficulty with having sex regularly when things between us weren't resolved (it would make me end up closing off a whole chunk of myself emotionally and finding it hard to feel close at other times too), while the other person would need to have sex to feel that things were okay. I know my ENFJ mum/ISTJ dad had the same kind of issues. Not sure how you get around that other than by mutual compromise (a little bit of both ways), but if one person is less inclined to compromise and when there are children involved who are more likely to get the brunt of the bad moods etc from not resolving issues, it puts the other person in a bad spot.

 

[eclare]

Eclare, I think it's good you have that balance of T and F. I actually stradle INFJ/INTJ myself. Even though I'm sensitive and in touch with my feelings, I can still be logical and rational when I choose to communicate in that manner.

What's interesting is that I am very good about being logical and rational about feelings - ie, what they stem from, whether or not my wants are healthy in the long term, whether my desired course of action is an appropriate way of achieving my actual goal, etc - BUT, even though I KNOW these things, there is still a huge disconnect between my head and heart. I unfortunately can't use my logical strengths to actually make my decisions, because my irrational emotions refuse to be convinced by logic. So I just end up with the two sides arguing with eachother constantly.

Has anyone else learned to deal with this kind of disconnect? It's like my logical side sees the correct path to achieving a goal (even an emotional goal) but my emotional side is so insistent and impulsive that it refuses to listen. It's why I'm so good at solving other people's problems but terrible at my own.