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  1. #61
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    This is a REALLY interesting point. For me, if I present an idea, I always assume the other person will be capable of thinking through and evaluating it. Thus I would never not share an idea, even a total bullshit one. There is no danger or worry in my mind that an incorrect idea might take root. If it sucks, the idea will be dismantled and rebuilt, discarded, or might serve as a tidbit to give fruition to someone else's idea.

    However I have ran into a few of INTPs and INFJs over the last few months who do exhibit concern. Simply by sharing the idea, it seems they cant assume the other person is actually able to think independently thus there is a sense of worry. Almost like the idea is a pathogen, and once released people will just believe it because it was spoken? I am seeing shades of this in your above quote as well.

    I dont fully grasp this though...

    Thanks for your observations digest, they are really quite awesome. These are areas where I think ENFPs can self-modify, but we have to understand what is off kilter first-thus external observations are appreciated.
    I am a little late to the thread here but this part of the discussion is particularly interesting to me.

    Given the way I process the world, nothing is ever really nailed down in my mind, there is just what I believe to be the case at the current time. I can change my mind sometimes without even realizing it. I try to qualify my opinions and ideas in discussions at work, because over the years I have learned that I have a way of unintentionally convincing people of things. Even when I try to qualify something by saying "this is my current best guess and subject to change" it apparently isn't coming across.

    What I find is that very frequently, some idea or theory that I floated has been latched onto without me even realizing it. In the meantime I have gotten new information and changed my mind and it turns out that I have sold an idea that I don't even really believe myself anymore. It is incredibly frustrating. I realize that I must be coming off as more passionate and sure of things than what I intend. Part of the problem is that I *do* have good ideas and people know it and they start to trust me, but what they don't understand is I have ideas coming at me constantly and sometimes I share a bad one. It must sound like a good one at the time because I do a good job of laying out how I came to that idea.

    Just in typing this out right now I think I might realize one of the problems! When I lay out my thought process, I do it so that other people can help me figure out where I might have gone wrong, but I think other people are seeing my thought process as evidence that I am right! Like the way I reached the conclusion isn't being examined except as a sales pitch almost. They think my thought process sounds good so I must be right and they run with it.

    Maybe I am onto something here!

  2. #62
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    What I do know is I generally feel responsible for the 'happiness' of any interaction I have. In other words...whether I am conversing with a group or an individual...I feel like it is somehow my responsibility to make sure everyone feels 'happy & loved' (I'm sure that sounds painfully cheesy).
    I am not saying that you're not an ENFP, but that quality is very Fe.
    I can relate somewhat to what StarryKnights is saying, but I am curious about something.

    If you really examine it, do you think you really care if the people feel happy and loved?

    For me, I come off like I care about people a lot, and sometimes I do, but I also think it comes off more than what it is. When I examine my motivations, I think I am usually just trying to avoid conflicts and projecting my conflict avoidance onto other people. I am not sure I really care about how much they feel happy and loved, as long as things aren't blowing up in my face or something (or aren't developing the potential to blow up in my face later).

    I don't really know how to express what I am getting at. I do care, but probably not as much in the touchy feely cliche Fe way, but more in the "keep things running smoothly so I don't have to deal with any crap later" kind of way. It sounds bad, I know.

    I catch myself maintaining good relationships just because it seems like good practice in case I need something later. Not as in "you owe me so here I am cashing it in" but I do think I get things done a lot easier because I keep people on good terms with me and they will do what I want when I ask.

    When I really have a connection with someone I will actually care how they feel. But in the day to day interactions all around I am not sure how much I really care and how much I just go through the motions because it is expedient or might work to my advantage later. And then sometimes I look like I care a lot because I am really good at imagining myself in another person's shoes and it seems like I care about them but really I am feeling anxiety about being in that position myself for real.

    I kind of feel bad about this thinking about it now.

  3. #63
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    I feel like a self centered jerk.

  4. #64
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    True that. I can really only debate people when they're operating based on evidence, because any other debating (including Fi debating) is pure rhetoric - and I can't really handle that. What usually happens is that I get exasperated and go "How the hell am I supposed to reason with you?! Fine. We'll agree to disagree." and the person I'm debating with (as well as whoever's in the audience, if there is an audience) takes that as admittance of defeat. GOD is that infuriating.


    What do you mean by "Ne amplify"? What's the thought process there?

    It's interesting - I really relate to about two thirds of this. I do sometimes get upset by being proven wrong, even when that isn't rational, and I do have to make myself quit bitching (internally) about it, when that happens. However, I'm not sure if that's Fi. I don't turn the facts into values, necessarily; but I instinctively take those corrections as defeat, and as a result I feel not just embarrassed, but humiliated. So, could you elaborate/clarify a little bit on how those facts become Fi?

    Or did you mean that those facts merge themselves with the Fi values that you listed later in your post?

    Oh man, I remember that! I wish there was an easy way to sort through that thread to find answers quickly, so I could review it.

    And speaking of types of ENFPs, this thread is making me wish I definitely knew ENFPs irl. All the ones I've been referring to, in terms of my interactions with them, have been on this site.

    Do you know your enneagram type? 'Cause you could be a 2. Or you could just have very strong Fe and still be ENFP. I dunno - these things aren't set in stone.
    So-working backwards-every Fi user will have grown with their Fi values tuned and developed in different ways. I have an Fi value tuned in on logic which trumps my Fi value for harmony. Starryknights has an Fi value for conflict avoidance and harmony. So we might look totally different on the surface but both be ENFPs. Since ENFPs dont really use Fe as a mask and we value authenticity, I suspect you can actually see a very significant level of variability across the "enfp spectrum" .

    WRT to Fi and facts-Do you value logic and reason above all other ways to approach a problem? If you feel a sense of gut-wrongness about trying to approach the problem in other ways and an unwillingness to change your mind as it just seems ridiculous to do so?-I'd say that might be an Fi value.

    Over at INTJf you see a large number of the younger INTJs who "value" logic as the only valid means of problem solving-they will argue and fight anyone who tries to debate any other way-cause they are fighting for an Fi value of "logic is best". Interestingly as they develop Fi overtime, the older INTJs will typically be logical on most every topic except their "pet" Fi topics. This may be religion, education, abortion, freedom of religion...but it is notably single focused for each INTJ-perhaps as a result of life experiences. So the threads can read like "logic, logic, logic, Fi value, logic as Fi, Fi value, Logic as Fi, Fi slap, insults on logic..." with lots of Ni context shifting.

    The question may be-are there certain topics where Te logic should take a back seat or be combined with value based analysis? I suspect so. This is where the more resolved Fi values of an ENFP and the ultra resolution of an INFP's Fi are tools that have developed to analyze the situation in concert.

    In any event, it is kinda cool...as if we can hardwire Te as an Fi value it leads me to question how we use the isolated functions but we them and lock them into place by assigning value to certain aspects.

    Ne Amplify-Ne connects things together. It fills in the blank spaces and extrapolates. So given one piece of negative feedback, the enfp can have a tendency to extrapolate to all the other people, all the other projects and so on...It feels impossible not to do this. I just ignore it as my brain telling me "crazy talk" but I also realize I choose to exclude valid negative feedback at times-I cant figure out the valid feedback from the amplified noise so I try and focus on measurable external stuff.

    Does Te feel somewhat combative to you at times? I recognize that annoyance at being wrong-like I have lost. It isnt about values-just about being trumped. I REALLY try to tone this down as it doesnt seem productive, especially as I know I am a bit too immature to use it in a productive way to self improve. ......

    Actually, thinking outloud....BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!, I do my very very best after having been told I am too stupid to do something. "Really? I'll show you, you stupid bastard!" Then I accomplish the impossible. Hmmmm....

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Since ENFPs dont really use Fe as a mask and we value authenticity, I suspect you can actually see a very significant level of variability across the "enfp spectrum" .
    The mask thing is a fine line. I'll put on the mask and play the little game but if you know me you can tell the difference.

    Trivial example... I noticed it on the elevator today. People getting off the elevator tell each other to "Have a nice day" and other people return it back to them. I can't do it though. I know I need to say something kind of nice there but I am not attached enough to the situation to say "Have a nice day" because I don't really mean it.

    Instead, they say to me "Have a nice day" and I say "See you later."

    But if it is someone I am actually friends with I will say "Have a nice day" because I do care.

    I wonder if people notice... I noticed it really obviously today, but I had been thinking about this thread already this morning.

  6. #66
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I can relate somewhat to what StarryKnights is saying, but I am curious about something.

    If you really examine it, do you think you really care if the people feel happy and loved?

    For me, I come off like I care about people a lot, and sometimes I do, but I also think it comes off more than what it is. When I examine my motivations, I think I am usually just trying to avoid conflicts and projecting my conflict avoidance onto other people. I am not sure I really care about how much they feel happy and loved, as long as things aren't blowing up in my face or something (or aren't developing the potential to blow up in my face later).

    I don't really know how to express what I am getting at. I do care, but probably not as much in the touchy feely cliche Fe way, but more in the "keep things running smoothly so I don't have to deal with any crap later" kind of way. It sounds bad, I know.

    I catch myself maintaining good relationships just because it seems like good practice in case I need something later. Not as in "you owe me so here I am cashing it in" but I do think I get things done a lot easier because I keep people on good terms with me and they will do what I want when I ask.

    When I really have a connection with someone I will actually care how they feel. But in the day to day interactions all around I am not sure how much I really care and how much I just go through the motions because it is expedient or might work to my advantage later. And then sometimes I look like I care a lot because I am really good at imagining myself in another person's shoes and it seems like I care about them but really I am feeling anxiety about being in that position myself for real.

    I kind of feel bad about this thinking about it now.
    No...I really do care...BUT...I certainly don't think you should feel bad in anyway for what you describe above. That just sounds like good social/business sense to me. Like, if you said...I am nice to people so I can manipulate them...control them...take advantage of them...well...you see what I am getting at. Maintaining good relationships with others (which would include doing things for them when they are in need) so you can call on them in the future if need be...just sounds like 'living in society'. I am not above doing what you have described. There are people that I maintain good relationships with...just so they will leave me alone! But like Orobas said. 'My Fi' merely values something different (or whatever she said )

  7. #67
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    The mask thing is a fine line. I'll put on the mask and play the little game but if you know me you can tell the difference.

    Trivial example... I noticed it on the elevator today. People getting off the elevator tell each other to "Have a nice day" and other people return it back to them. I can't do it though. I know I need to say something kind of nice there but I am not attached enough to the situation to say "Have a nice day" because I don't really mean it.

    Instead, they say to me "Have a nice day" and I say "See you later."

    But if it is someone I am actually friends with I will say "Have a nice day" because I do care.

    I wonder if people notice... I noticed it really obviously today, but I had been thinking about this thread already this morning.
    I may sincerely care about the majority of human beings on this planet, nevertheless, I have never learned how to do the 'have a nice day' thing - as I don't want to! One of the most insulting things to me is when people are asking me stuff like 'how was your weekend?'...and you know they don't care...aren't going to listen...don't give a flying crap. Is it Fi when you secretly desire to say 'why the bleep, bleep are you asking me when you don't even give a flying crap?'

    I refuse to say anything in that regard if I don't feel it in my gut. No one will hear from me...'how was your weekend' unless I 100% care to know.

  8. #68
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    How do you know that we DON'T care to know? I find that kind of thing isn't just a "make-them-feel-good" sort of move, but it also gives me much more context for understanding what their outside of this context life is like, where they are coming from, how it affects them in my venue I share with them and so on. I don't ask people if I'm not interested, but mostly I'm interested.

    I still don't understand why you would feel so strongly about the have a nice day thing. I've heard several Fi users express this. I probably would only avoid answering in kind if I truly disliked the person and even then, I still think there's nothing fake about wishing a person all the best, even if you are not terribly involved or even feel they are your nearest and dearest. I'm sure there's something I'm missing, but I'm not understanding the difference in perspective as it stands right now.

  9. #69
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    How do you know that we DON'T care to know? I find that kind of thing isn't just a "make-them-feel-good" sort of move, but it also gives me much more context for understanding what their outside of this context life is like, where they are coming from, how it affects them in my venue I share with them and so on. I don't ask people if I'm not interested, but mostly I'm interested.

    I still don't understand why you would feel so strongly about the have a nice day thing. I've heard several Fi users express this. I probably would only avoid answering in kind if I truly disliked the person and even then, I still think there's nothing fake about wishing a person all the best, even if you are not terribly involved or even feel they are your nearest and dearest. I'm sure there's something I'm missing, but I'm not understanding the difference in perspective as it stands right now.
    It is probably ridiculous of me to believe I can ‘sense’ sincerity in people…but I, at least in my own crazy little world, believe I can. Oh…and I am sure I have been wrong many, many times. There have probably been many times I have misjudged a very sincere ‘how’s your day going?’. But don’t get me wrong. I do answer politely. I don’t actually say ‘wait…I don’t have my script…hold on *shuffles papers*…oh here it is…I am fine. How are you?’.

    And I guess that is what it is about. It feels so scripted. I think if someone really…and I mean really cared about me…they would abandon the ‘script’.

    This is actually what I try to do. I try to come up with things that are more personal. Like, ‘I don’t know why but you look like someone that is into the Lord of the Rings Trilogy…are you?’ (that one was a winner with a college prof that was! We became friends).

    I remember an INFJ I worked with. Everyday he would walk by me (not stop walking mind you) and say ‘how are you?’ (NOT saying all INFJs do this…just using an example). I figured if he really wanted to know…I mean really wanted to know…he would stop, look me in the eye… But it was just part of the script. He was just waiting for the ‘Fine.’ But I could ‘sense’ he was a good guy. So I started to experiment. I would say back things like… ‘Do you want the truth or do you want me to make something up?’ And you would literally see him ‘shutter awake’. Then he would actually stop, laugh…and we would actually have what I would deem an authentic conversation.

  10. #70
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    Just in typing this out right now I think I might realize one of the problems! When I lay out my thought process, I do it so that other people can help me figure out where I might have gone wrong, but I think other people are seeing my thought process as evidence that I am right! Like the way I reached the conclusion isn't being examined except as a sales pitch almost. They think my thought process sounds good so I must be right and they run with it.
    This ties back into the idea discussed before-that simply by saying things in a different way I can influence the way the Fe user thinks about the subject under discussion. Thus simply because I say the idea-even the tentative idea-in a confident way-due to my club-like Te-they assume I really know what I am talking about. That's scary because they are acting when I never asked or meant them to-it is unintentional manipulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    When I really have a connection with someone I will actually care how they feel. But in the day to day interactions all around I am not sure how much I really care and how much I just go through the motions because it is expedient or might work to my advantage later. And then sometimes I look like I care a lot because I am really good at imagining myself in another person's shoes and it seems like I care about them but really I am feeling anxiety about being in that position myself for real.

    I kind of feel bad about this thinking about it now.
    The problem I have is that the minute I imagine myself in their shoes-I am stuck really caring about them. So I end up really caring about many people around me. However I have seen some older ENFPs who can do what you describe-it works really well as it looks pseudo Fe-ish, so they can build both Fe and Te support networks. People say they are really nice, but terrifying, especially if they dont have a lot of Te showing....

    This sounds horrible....but I am trying to learn to sever those innate FiSi connections that I got without really wanting. They compel me to want to help people, who have no built in incentive to help me. It is self destructive. I think real Fi should be reserved only for those very close. Everyone else gets fairness, integrity, but not self sacrifice.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    It is probably ridiculous of me to believe I can ‘sense’ sincerity in people…but I, at least in my own crazy little world, believe I can. Oh…and I am sure I have been wrong many, many times. There have probably been many times I have misjudged a very sincere ‘how’s your day going?’. But don’t get me wrong. I do answer politely. I don’t actually say ‘wait…I don’t have my script…hold on *shuffles papers*…oh here it is…I am fine. How are you?’.

    And I guess that is what it is about. It feels so scripted. I think if someone really…and I mean really cared about me…they would abandon the ‘script’.

    This is actually what I try to do. I try to come up with things that are more personal. Like, ‘I don’t know why but you look like someone that is into the Lord of the Rings Trilogy…are you?’ (that one was a winner with a college prof that was! We became friends).
    I can do the sincerity check thing as well. I used to think the banal small talk was pointless and fake, but then the Fe users here explained that it sort of renews the Fe social bonds for them-sort of a check to make sure everything is going okay between the two people. If I dont participate, then it seems they think I am being rude or am angry at them-which isnt the case at all. So now I return the "good morning" with a little smile and mentally tell myself "Oh, wouldnt want them to think I hate them or anything"

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