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  1. #51
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    By the way, I don't want Seymour's comments to get left in the dust. I agree for the most part and would still like to get around to commenting more extensively.

    Thanks skylights and Orobas for your perspectives. The two paradigms we look through the world from are so different and yet when translated to the opposite functions have a lot of similarities. I'm beginning to see some basic principles emerging in dealing with both types which I think are helpful for seeing where we approach differently and what will work better. I'd like to yet put those findings into a thread for some discussion and refining.

    Seymour makes a very good point about the source of the ideas being somewhat removed in importance with Te because they are going to be examined closely anyway - all ideas are given consideration. I see that same dynamic happening with Fe in some sense. That is why less weight is given to the individual members of the group and their intentions, and more weight is placed on what result is. Both EJCC and one of the ENFPs (who was it who gave the example about telling a secret that a Fe user had been told in confidence?) have mentioned this business of trying to explain their intentions to a Fe user, to little avail. I think this is why.

    I laughed at that example of yours, O, because it rang so true. I may see that a product is a great one, but if someone tries to sell it to me in an offensive, overly pushy or annoying way, I will purposely not buy it, even if I can see from the data that it is good. I just can't ignore the people element that goes along with it and on some level that carries more weight with me. Of course I do care about quality as well, but if there are two places offering products with equal quality, I will always purchase from the one that connects with me best in a personal way. I wonder what implications this has for Fi using inventors, writers, business people etc getting people to "buy their product"? Do they understand that data or a good product is not enough to speak for itself with some people? Do they develop their own Fi brand of salesmanship, or do a lot of good ideas and products go by the wayside?

    skylights - I can understand your frustration with Js at times - I have had a few very dominant friends in the past that you either had to mold your plans to or else forget about it. It didn't seem fair. I also don't like people who are too rigid with plans. Mostly I'll be really easygoing, but if it was something I was really counting on, it takes me a few minutes to get over my disappointment at things changing, even if it is changing to another good thing. In this sense it can seem that the Ps remain in control and spring things on me sometimes. I think all the way around, it's a matter of being flexible and communicating needs directly instead of just feeling irked either way.

    Thanks both skylights and Seymour for explaining the puzzle piece thing. That makes absolute sense when explained from that perspective.

    Re critiquing ideas - I think there certainly is a place for that skylights and it is important to do. The key lies in the approach more than anything. Being aware that this is a very personal thing, you might use the example of how you would critique a piece of art you happened to see at a flea market or bazaar (not knowing the painter), or when a friend shows you their own art. You are still allowed to critique both, but you would likely do it differently because of your relationship to the person. (Maybe that's just a Fe perspective though, I don't know). Same thing with what a person likes. If you went to someone's house and they had spent a lot of money on certain decor, you wouldn't look around (usually) and say, "I've always hated that style of furniture. It's impractical and what's more, it looks ridiculous". You would wait until you were invited to give your opinion, or you could tactfully make a suggestion of what would make the place look even better (addition of a certain piece of furniture, pattern, colour, taking something away etc). You could start impersonally, and then gradually get more personal, testing the water for what the reaction is. You could look at what you agree on and then comment on what you might have done differently, allowing them time to mull it over. (Actually, come to think of it, this just sounds like Fe/Ti). Ideas would be the same, so would our personal tastes and likes in people, music etc. It's not that the topic is off limits, but you have to be careful in how you would approach, much as we ought to be careful about wading in with comments on your values etc without taking time to gather information, find out how important something is to you and how close it is to your heart.

    hence critiquing an idea is okay - anyone can discover a truth - but critiquing a feeling is much more dangerous ground, because you are not privy to the full range of circumstances which invoked that feeling.
    Replace feeling with the word thought, and you'll better understand why critiquing our thoughts is not invited unless we deem you someone who has earned the right to be heard. If someone wanted to critique a feeling of yours, what is the appropriate approach? Would it be similar to what I've described with thought? What would a conversation like that look like? Obviously for either of us, doing it privately is much more preferred than doing it publicly. Beyond that though, I'm not sure...

    Also, I've noticed that Ti asks all sorts of questions about the things it's not sure of and appreciates having the same done back. It's a way of showing interest and validation. Would Fi do the same thing for values or feelings, or would they consider that too intrusive. Would you want to be plied with questions about your feelings in the way that we do with our thoughts? I was thinking about how Te seems demanding to me and puts me on the spot because it wants an oversimplified and quickly given, impersonal version of our thoughts. Does Fe feel like that to you? If so, how can we approach in a less intimidating, demanding manner?

    skylights - Your point about going towards people when you are stressed, whereas Fe/Ti moves away is bang on. Do you think this has anything to do with extroversion/introversion, or is it solely a Fe/Ti and Fi/Te thing? I'm inclined to think the latter, but I'm not sure. I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but I think that's a big source of conflicts on the forums. Right when I want to distance myself slightly so that I can come back and be gracious, the Fi/Te person follows me there and I get short with them. They feel rejected because I don't want to engage and it feels to them like maybe I am also being inauthentic. Yet if I give them the full load of how I am feeling at that moment, it won't be pleasant for them and may do damage. I want time to recalibrate my emotions and return when I am able to be more even keeled. In any of the situations where I have seen problems, I think this is at play. I'd be interested in hearing from the INFPs though and seeing their take on it.

    while i get this, doesn't it seem kind of unfair? i don't really have any opinion on EW's participation in the INFJ conversation - especially because i did not read the thread and have no idea what happened - but it sounds so much like the Fe person totally controls the conversation - they decide if and when someone gets their ideas considered.
    Like with Te "protecting" Fi, I believe that the strong-looking offensive Fe stance is actually a sign of a Ti user trying to be defensive of their area of vulnerability (Ti). It may look like they are being bossy, but really they are trying to reduce the critics to those they have deemed people who either have the qualifications, understanding or consideration to present things to them in such a way they can hear them. You don't appreciate Fe users coming in and making light of your Fi, even though they really do see feelings as something more impersonal that you examine, move around, change, add to, take away from, probe etc (much in the way you see their Ti ideas) and so you respond with Te to defend that and keep your Fi safe. By keeping people who will not understand away from those areas, you allow yourself to still want to be around them. Otherwise, it will deeply wound the relationship if they do not have the information or understanding they need to respect their surroundings and act accordingly.

    This is always going to be an issue, but I think if both parties understand why they tend to respond in the ways they do (Te brings out uber Fe and Fe brings out uber Te), it will help us speak in ways that will lessen the extremeness of the reaction and be more equitable from both viewpoints.

  2. #52
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Sorry for the walls of text, folks. Catch you on the next round, PB, too!

  3. #53
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Fidelia directed me here... and OMG there is so much to read!!! It's so interesting to see how much I relate to on this thread, even though no one here is an SJ. I will post here tomorrow (I just saved all the quotes I want to reply to in a massive Word document... lol), but in the meantime, I have a paper due tomorrow that I haven't written

    But I'll be back soon with (presumably) a very long post!
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  4. #54
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Here 'tis! It's kind of stream of consciousness, but there you go.

    Re Orobas: It’s interesting how different types of Te can be. Some of the stressed-out ENFP Te you described early in the thread can really intimidate me when I see it in the real world (dunno if it’s ENFPs doing this, but I’ve seen that behavior you described). I mean, when people make big, factually wrong statements, I feel like it’s my duty to correct them, but after I do, sometimes that behavior shows up, where suddenly I can tell that what they’re arguing is based on emotions and not fact. For example, the way that many of the ENFPs on this site express Te seems very reactive to me. (It relates really well to what you said about how “we wield tert functions like clubs”.) Speaking as a Te dom, I can totally tell that it’s some sort of defense, instead of a standard communication style, and that puts me off to no end. It’s like pretending that you’re objective and ready for rational debate, when you really aren’t. That usually puts me off to the point that I don’t even try to respond, and I just leave the online premises.

    I don’t mean this to offend ENFPs. I read the entire thread up until this point, and I totally understand the reasoning behind using Te when you do. I also understand that my reaction to it is unreasonable and comes from my ignorance. I’m just saying… that’s my knee-jerk reaction when that happens. But if what you said is true – i.e. that you really do want to be corrected – then I should just stick around and continue debating from now on? But there were some quotes earlier about how Te is a last-minute defense mechanism… So how can I tell the difference between an ENFP’s defensive Te and regular Te? It seems like with one of them, you want to be corrected, and with the other, you want people to shut up and go away. That confuses me to no end.

    Also, Orobas, I totally related to your description of how ENFPs can be totally right about something, and then after being corrected they’re totally right again. And your description of the ENFP method of comforting people… well, that’s exactly what I do. (At the most, anyway. Usually I do less, or try to distract them or cheer them up in a way unrelated to the problem they’re having.)

    Re digestthisickness: I can’t even begin to articulate how much I relate to your comments about how those generalizations can bug you. I think being raised by a Ti-dom has trained me to always be on the lookout for those things. In fact, I think I’ve actually gotten really good at Ti-backpedaling, e.g. “Keeping in mind that none of this is really certain…” So I always score really high on Ti in function tests, even though I think most of it is just Ti training to get Ti types off my back, instead of actual Ti.

    Re Seymour: I kind of disagree with you about Ti. I don't think it's egalitarian about source at all. From my experience with Ti-doms, even though there are some topics - specifically related to logic/math problems or philosophy - where source doesn't matter at all, if it relates to data/facts/etc, you HAVE to have a credible source. For example, my dad will not buy ANYTHING (practically) until he checks Consumer Reports to find the best-rated option.

    Re fidelia: I'm confused about your point about having your feelings vs your thoughts attacked. If having your thoughts attacked offends you because your thoughts are an extension of you personally, does that mean your feelings aren't an extension of you? So if someone told you that your feelings were wrong, that wouldn't be as bad as hearing that your thoughts were wrong?

    I ask because that concept is so foreign to me. It’s so counter to what I would subjectively consider “common sense”. The way I see it is – there are your thoughts, and there are your feelings. Ideas are objective, and therefore separate from any emotional connection. If/when criticizing one of my ideas makes me emotional, it’s because I’m ashamed of being so incredibly wrong; I hate looking stupid in front of other people. But when you mock my feelings, you're mocking something innocent that can't defend itself - and by that, I mean that feelings can't hold up in debate (because only facts can).

    Also:
    Also, I've noticed that Ti asks all sorts of questions about the things it's not sure of and appreciates having the same done back. It's a way of showing interest and validation. Would Fi do the same thing for values or feelings, or would they consider that too intrusive.
    This is very interesting. I actually do this all the time. I have a tendency to ask my very closest friends, when I’m in a really bad mood, whether they think my mood is justified. It comforts me to know that I have a good excuse for being upset. Not sure how relevant that is though.

    Re PeaceBaby: I really relate to, and agree with, these two quotes of yours:
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You make me think of traveling stories with my husband fidelia ... driving to places we've never been before (pre-GPS), he would narrate our next move, for example, "We need to make a right on Pine St." Sometimes I would feel pretty sure that this next move was wrong, but he would sound certain, so I wouldn't interject and disagree. He would make the turn, and then we'd be going the wrong way, and I would say, "Hmmm, I thought that turn was wrong..." and in reply he would express frustration that I didn't speak up. "If you knew it was wrong, why did you let me turn?" He was happy to be contradicted - even though Te can sound so sure, a mature Te user is generally very open to correction. In fact, at times, I think it's practically expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Otherwise, the Fi POV remains hidden. As much as it might make an Fe user cringe to hear this, it takes some courage to stand up and proclaim Fi, it's scary to put oneself on the line. Only when I speak up can I determine whether my intuition and feelings are accurate to the group or possessed primarily by myself.
    Re Skylights (specifically her point about Fe/Ti vs Fi/Te stress, going towards people or going away from them): I’d be interested in hearing another answer to this too, because I had a relevant interaction with an NF(?) friend today, where we were going to bake cookies in the evening and then a huge thing happened that put both of us in stressed and cranky moods.
    Her reaction: “I am stressed and drained and this has put me out of a cookie-baking mood, so I guess I’ll relax and sit alone and watch TV and go to bed because I’m tired.”
    My unverbalized reaction: “We can’t cancel! I’ve been looking forward to this all day and I am NOT going to give up on it. I’m not in a good mood either, but it’ll put me in a better mood if we do something fun instead of giving up and resigning ourselves to the sad fate of going to bed early on a Friday night.”
    So in other words, she distanced herself from everyone in the hopes that she’d calm down/feel better, and I belligerently tried to keep the social interactions going In the hopes that they would make me feel better, which is actually a trend with me (i.e. that I usually get VERY Te when I’m in a cranky mood).
    Last edited by EJCC; 12-06-2010 at 10:33 PM.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #55
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Re Orobas: It’s interesting how different types of Te can be. Some of the stressed-out ENFP Te you described early in the thread can really intimidate me when I see it in the real world (dunno if it’s ENFPs doing this, but I’ve seen that behavior you described). I mean, when people make big, factually wrong statements, I feel like it’s my duty to correct them, but after I do, sometimes that behavior shows up, where suddenly I can tell that what they’re arguing is based on emotions and not fact.

    But if what you said is true – i.e. that you really do want to be corrected – then I should just stick around and continue debating from now on? But there were some quotes earlier about how Te is a last-minute defense mechanism… So how can I tell the difference between an ENFP’s defensive Te and regular Te? It seems like with one of them, you want to be corrected, and with the other, you want people to shut up and go away. That confuses me to no end.
    Perhaps the best way to approach the online debate-is to treat the enfp as an individual and base your decision on their historical ability to remain reasonable. Every ENFP will occasionally emo-pop, be irritable and show defensive Fi. But if you are interacting with an ENFP who repeatedly emo-pops, whenever questioned, you may just be hitting a defensive Fi reaction deployed as Te, so it may not be worth the effort of logical debate. They are really arguing Fi, not Te. I think arguing Fi in a Te mode is legit-if the topic is one of values or standing up for a value laden cause. But it may not be something you seek to endure

    An inside secret-most ENFPs seem to feel like we never work hard enough or are good enough-like Te always judges our efforts as FAIL. So we rely upon NeFi external affirmation to let us know that we are doing a good job, rather than using TeSi to look around at other people and measure our work against their work.

    I have noted that when Fi heavy ENFPs are under a bit of stress and you dig past the first few layers, they begin to get very "testy" and agitated and get negative feedback from NeFi. They Ne amplify the information and then totally freak out.

    "I just needed to know what search term to use in the oracle quoting module and you seem be having an anxiety attack and are biting my head off."

    The best solution is to remain very calm and just pretend like nothing out of the ordinary is happening. If you walk away, then come back five minutes later, often they have chilled out a bit and may even apologize.

    The problem is that anything we work hard for typically we have an Fi value stake in. We REALLY care. If we come up with ideas-we worked hard for them, as it isnt natural for us to focus this way-it is energy consuming. Our Te ideas, then become Fi values. So when you question the idea, you end up with a defensive Fi driven Te response-agitation, annoyance.

    Myself as an example:
    When I was an undergrad I was in chemistry classes with a bunch of ENTPs-very clever. At first I would get really pissed and defensive about the answers to homework problems, because the bastards were always right.

    Fi Rule 1=This objective problem is really important to me for some Fi reason.
    Fi Rule 2=My Te idea is correct, because I used Fi energy to fuel finding a Te answer=Defensive Fi response of agitation and emo when criticized or wrong.

    Then at some point I stopped and self questioned. WTF is all the angst about? If the Fi Rule 1 is really true, then I need THE correct answer, not what I THINK is the correct answer.

    Fi Rule 3=Ignore Fi, detach emotionally, stop and listen to the other ideas. Identify the error. Kill the emo. Detach from the idea. (At worst this odd Fi value will cause me to detach emotionally from issues which should be value laden.)

    Fi Rule 4=Other people are smarter than you and can see things you cant, thus it is always very important to ask and question, remember what you did incorrectly, and don’t do it again. There is VALUE in understanding the error and in the critique.

    Fi Rule 5=Disharmony that results in the correct action is better than harmony that results in incorrect actions. Competence is more important than friendliness.
    But I guess the trick is that ^^those Fi values are unique to each individual. I hold several of these values VERY dear. Objective logic becomes a value to the best of our abilities. It is sloppy Te, but we try.

    It's funny as I think back on your list from awhile ago of "Types of ESTJs" you see IRL and I could come up with a list of "Types of ENFPs" to match it.

  6. #56
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    skylights - Your point about going towards people when you are stressed, whereas Fe/Ti moves away is bang on. Do you think this has anything to do with extroversion/introversion, or is it solely a Fe/Ti and Fi/Te thing? I'm inclined to think the latter, but I'm not sure. I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but I think that's a big source of conflicts on the forums. Right when I want to distance myself slightly so that I can come back and be gracious, the Fi/Te person follows me there and I get short with them. They feel rejected because I don't want to engage and it feels to them like maybe I am also being inauthentic. Yet if I give them the full load of how I am feeling at that moment, it won't be pleasant for them and may do damage. I want time to recalibrate my emotions and return when I am able to be more even keeled. In any of the situations where I have seen problems, I think this is at play. I'd be interested in hearing from the INFPs though and seeing their take on it.

    All right...I admit it. I haven't read this entire thread. I didn't even read skylights bit that you are refering to here fidelia (sorry). But this did catch my eye...because I consider myself to be 100% ENFP...however...I always (keyword 'always') move away from people when stressed. Truth be told...I don't completely understand all of this Fi/Te Fe/Ti jazz. What I do know is I generally feel responsible for the 'happiness' of any interaction I have. In other words...whether I am conversing with a group or an individual...I feel like it is somehow my responsibility to make sure everyone feels 'happy & loved' (I'm sure that sounds painfully cheesy). Obviously, when I am in a crappy mood...I don't have the energy to make sure everyone is having a fab time so I move as far away from 'everyone' as possible. I totally isolate myself.

    When I read skylights stuff...I can tell that we are two different expressions of ENFP. However, I do feel several ENFPs on this forum can probably relate to what I am saying. Just sayin... LOL.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    What I do know is I generally feel responsible for the 'happiness' of any interaction I have. In other words...whether I am conversing with a group or an individual...I feel like it is somehow my responsibility to make sure everyone feels 'happy & loved' (I'm sure that sounds painfully cheesy).
    I am not saying that you're not an ENFP, but that quality is very Fe.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    I am not saying that you're not an ENFP, but that quality is very Fe.

    Yah...I know...(that was sweet the way you put that...'I am not saying...'). I guess I am really kinda confused about the Fi/Fe thing because I do relate, very much, to so many of the Fe qualities. I do have my 'limit' though which is maybe what ends up 'setting me apart'? I don't know. I am thinking of Peacebaby's 'work example' when she felt the safety of others was in the balance (don't know if you are familiar with that thread). I would do something that would temporarily disrupt the peace of the group if I felt it would lead to a better sense of group well-being in the end. But yah...I am very 'other focused'...and I often wish I wasn't! I also wish I could control something...anything(!)...in my life! LOL.

  9. #59
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Perhaps the best way to approach the online debate-is to treat the enfp as an individual and base your decision on their historical ability to remain reasonable. Every ENFP will occasionally emo-pop, be irritable and show defensive Fi. But if you are interacting with an ENFP who repeatedly emo-pops, whenever questioned, you may just be hitting a defensive Fi reaction deployed as Te, so it may not be worth the effort of logical debate. They are really arguing Fi, not Te. I think arguing Fi in a Te mode is legit-if the topic is one of values or standing up for a value laden cause. But it may not be something you seek to endure
    True that. I can really only debate people when they're operating based on evidence, because any other debating (including Fi debating) is pure rhetoric - and I can't really handle that. What usually happens is that I get exasperated and go "How the hell am I supposed to reason with you?! Fine. We'll agree to disagree." and the person I'm debating with (as well as whoever's in the audience, if there is an audience) takes that as admittance of defeat. GOD is that infuriating.

    They Ne amplify the information and then totally freak out.
    What do you mean by "Ne amplify"? What's the thought process there?
    The problem is that anything we work hard for typically we have an Fi value stake in. We REALLY care. If we come up with ideas-we worked hard for them, as it isnt natural for us to focus this way-it is energy consuming. Our Te ideas, then become Fi values. So when you question the idea, you end up with a defensive Fi driven Te response-agitation, annoyance.
    It's interesting - I really relate to about two thirds of this. I do sometimes get upset by being proven wrong, even when that isn't rational, and I do have to make myself quit bitching (internally) about it, when that happens. However, I'm not sure if that's Fi. I don't turn the facts into values, necessarily; but I instinctively take those corrections as defeat, and as a result I feel not just embarrassed, but humiliated. So, could you elaborate/clarify a little bit on how those facts become Fi?

    Or did you mean that those facts merge themselves with the Fi values that you listed later in your post?
    It's funny as I think back on your list from awhile ago of "Types of ESTJs" you see IRL and I could come up with a list of "Types of ENFPs" to match it.
    Oh man, I remember that! I wish there was an easy way to sort through that thread to find answers quickly, so I could review it.

    And speaking of types of ENFPs, this thread is making me wish I definitely knew ENFPs irl. All the ones I've been referring to, in terms of my interactions with them, have been on this site.
    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    Yah...I know...(that was sweet the way you put that...'I am not saying...'). I guess I am really kinda confused about the Fi/Fe thing because I do relate, very much, to so many of the Fe qualities. I do have my 'limit' though which is maybe what ends up 'setting me apart'? I don't know. I am thinking of Peacebaby's 'work example' when she felt the safety of others was in the balance (don't know if you are familiar with that thread). I would do something that would temporarily disrupt the peace of the group if I felt it would lead to a better sense of group well-being in the end. But yah...I am very 'other focused'...and I often wish I wasn't! I also wish I could control something...anything(!)...in my life! LOL.
    Do you know your enneagram type? 'Cause you could be a 2. Or you could just have very strong Fe and still be ENFP. I dunno - these things aren't set in stone.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Do you know your enneagram type? 'Cause you could be a 2. Or you could just have very strong Fe and still be ENFP. I dunno - these things aren't set in stone.
    Okay…I am totally ‘talking out loud here so please bare with me’…but there are times I wonder how much ‘overcompensation’ comes into play. I question these kinds of things because I am just a person that believes ‘looks’ can often be deceiving. And so I wonder…ENFPs for example. There are a lot of people that may assume ENFPs are pretty self-centered…and hey…I have met many self-centered ENFPs in my day.

    Yet I wonder how much of that self-centeredness stems from a hidden desire to ‘please others’ and make sure ‘the group’ is contented. The self-centeredness is an overcompensation. Being controlling may come from a place of… ‘look…I need you to be okay…okay? You see…I’m not completely okay right now and deep down inside I know I need to focus on myself…but I need you to be okay so I won’t focus on you’

    Please don’t think anything I wrote above I actually believe. Oh and I am totally sober. I’m serious. A sober e6.

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