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  1. #41
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm glad that you did detail the Fi values being violated as well as the fact that you did indeed understand all along the way the message that was being sent. This sheds a lot of light on the whole thing.

  2. #42
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Oh! One other thing I thought of - with Ne constantly updating new models, sometimes I've heard others express this and I've occasionally thought it myself: it seems at times like the ENFP is wasting our time with a bunch of theories or ideas that they haven't taken the time to do the homework on. It would be like indiscriminately handing us all kinds of puzzle pieces, willy-nilly saying enthusiastically, "Hey! This one. This one will work for sure! I know it!" when it's obvious that it's not the right shape or the colours are wrong etc. I think to myself, "Did you even think about this before saying it. And NOW you want me to take the course of action you reccommend even though you clearly keep changing all the time yourself?
    well, I suspect there may two aspects to this one-first we have to think out loud. I have this random theory about two brains and Ne being on one side and Te being on the other (*giggles naughtily at poorly thought out rambling idea* bad enfp, bad enfp!!). So, to some degree, we have amassed a lot of Ne connections tempered by Fi-but to put them together uses Te vocalization or typing-but for some reason I have to type to an audience. Ideas-especially almost pure Ne-Te ideas, really require external confirmation and feedback. I actually really loved Sim and the other young entps as they would Ne with me, then poke holes in my rambles as they didnt listen to Fe enough to not be rude . However if they could see the idea too..it often meant it had passed a bit of the Ti test, thus had merit.

    Also-Fi is an analytical function-but it is very diffuse and incomprehensible to Ti. An ENTP recently said the Fi users get "sloppy". That isnt sloppy-that is Fi analysis. It is a more fuzzy logic for extremely complex problems and will break or skip Ti linkages. I dont think it is at all invalid-just very different from ti. But on the surface, when expressed, it can seem we just used Ne-Te as the Fi is silent and not precisely bounded.

    Aptly, the people who love this insane chatter of profuse looney ideas-the INTJs. They dont like it when we lock the ideas down with Si, but many seem keen to listen to our Ne ramblings. I suspect there is some sort of symbiotic Ni-Ne love fest occurring.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I believe the same issue is at play when ENFPs change their plans often. They really, really do mean it at the time when they say something, but then everything changes again and they have to reacquaint themselves with the new reality. For an INFJ who doesn't enjoy emotional surprises especially, but also takes adjustment time when changing plans and so on, it can be hard to deal with.
    oh, plan changing would put others at an inconvienence thus would hit one of my Fi cores, so would be a no-no for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I completely identify with her. I would way rather have my feelings made fun of than my thoughts. I would feel horrifically rejected and embarrassed if someone were to respond with laughter to my thoughts, even though I wouldn't as much if they got a kick out of how mad I was about something etc. Even as an adult with more perspective, I would find this really hard to deal with. I remember when I was about six talking at the table with my parents about what year it was in the Chinese calendar as our friends were Chinese. I said that it was "the year of the pony" and I remember being absolutely mortified when my parents looked amused and corrected me. They weren't even mean about it, but I still remember the complete embarrassment and sadness I felt. That's been a huge thing as I've gotten older in learning to separate myself more from people's reactions, realizing that they are not trying to make me feel badly. Music I like, people I like, pursuits I enjoy - they are all extensions of me and so rejection/mocking of them is felt as rejection/mocking of me.

    I guess this is another example of the Fi-Ti dichotomy. It also explains why the NFPs would get wound up by Sim every time, even though he consistently would manipulate the situation in the same way and then call them whiny, butthurt etc. They were reacting to his laughing at their feelings (and by extension, rejection of their values and essence of who they were) just as we would to someone mocking our thoughts and ideas that had been painstakingly developed.
    It is interesting as simply hearing someone say "quit wasting our time with your ideas" or "stop sharing half thought ideas" would offend my sense that everyone should be allowed to speak-freedom of speech in the truest sense I suppose. This is why I was so upset when captain chick posted her thread awhile back in feedback about wanting to reopen a thread and people said she was attention whoring-she was simply wanting to speak up for what she believed on an issue she found important. It doesnt matter if I feel/think the issue is important-what matters is that she is allowed to fight her fight and speak openly. There have been instances where posters I distinctly dislike had the same thing begin to happen, and I felt compelled to step up and defend them.

    However I have heard what you say about ideas above from ENTPs as well. Once I understand that it hurts another person to question their idea very forcefully and publicly-well I feel that morphing into an Fi value of sorts. I dont understand exactly how to implement it, but it comes with a certain amount of guilt, as I likely have hurt others unknowingly and in a few cases out of my own frustration and hurt. At the time, I figured, oh, it is just an idea. But I hurt them as badly as they had hurt me. Later on that person would attack my ideas, but it didnt ever hurt as she didnt understand to go for my feelings, not my ideas. This saddens me, as hurting others is not my intent.

    Wrt Sim, it was more that he would feed me contradicting motives for my own Fi. That my Fi value judgments were selfish or presumptous-that they hurt others. It was simply my felings-but my innate motivations. It would lead me to self question. I very much enjoyed the entp-Fi threads as I learned a lot about how others perceive me. There was some butthurt, but I have a lot of entp friends, so I kind of understand how to debate without getting emo, so I would try to listen and learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think you're onto something with the Ti-Fi thing, Orobas. This is one of the reasons why we actually do believe it's HARMFUL to put false information out there. If it comes from a trusted source, it has power to damage, just as an indisciminate person given access to a Fi users innermost feelings could wreak havoc.
    Oh, I realized the symmetric pattern is actually when an ENFP feels they have Te boundaries to keep them safe-it is like a wall to protect us, thus we can be open and share Fi. We trust we are safe and that the Te of the other person can be relied upon to protect the much more fragile emotions.

    We also can grow to be a bit annoyed by Fi judgments being thrown out at random willy-nilly-they can be HARMFUL. Fi is meant to be externalized when the need is great, not over little things. I think this may be because by showing our Fi and emotions, we can force the other person to mirror and feel what we feel-only if the Te boundary is down. This gives us the ability to induce guilt and actual emotional pain in others. Perhaps like you guys with Ti and the influence upon ideas, it might allow us to actually influence the Fi values of the other person.

    interestingly-Fi users protest in groups. You can ignore the solitary enfp as being emo-but if a group of enfps or a trusted enfp, say something is Fi flawed, it is given more credence. This might correlate to how Ti users dont actually claim the idea as theirs openly unless very trusted-but instead the entire group supports the idea. It gives the idea more credibility perhaps. But I dont know for sure.

    With respect to the Te wall-note that if we never had that Te wall to give us a sense of security for Fi growing up-we build it ourselves internally. But it is shaky and has holes and is incomplete. I meet many, many ENFPs like myself who have built Te defensive barriers due to unstable childhoods. On the surface we actually appear rock solid and do pretty well in life, but underneath we can be in great pain or feel very empty at times.

    When we are in enough emotional pain to externalize our own Fi-it can come across as almost incoherent babbling-as the Te structure has totally collapsed and a very raw Fi is exposed. That is why it can be hard to give Fe users any warning that we are in emotional hurt during an interaction-we just keep trying harder and harder to structure the emotional pain, to keep the hurt from reaching deeper inside of us.

    The Te boundaries though-that is why IXTJs can be so good for ENFPs. They allow a safe place for us to relax enough to expose Fi. They also seen fairly resistant to Fi breakdowns.

    This thread made me shed a tear...

  3. #43
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Excellent and interesting points! I wouldn't have thought of some of that at all.

    It never occurred to me that by verbalizing your thoughts you guys sort through them, much like I do with my feelings and finding a solution. I need to vent so that I can clear through the useless stuff and zero in on the stuff worth focussing in on. I seem to need to discuss things with someone to be able to sort through which parts are important and which parts aren't and it isn't even very dependent on their response - more the act of verbalizing it (although I can't seem to do it just by journalling - I need a real live person).

    I'd like to hear more about how Fi analysis works. I still don't have much grasp of it because Fi only seems to come out in extreme circumstances and then it is not a time when you would normally visit about it - there is some kind of a crisis to deal with.

    It's only been this last year that I've noticed what a strangely symbiotic relationship INTJs and ENFPs have. They seem like an unlikely pair, but are very complementary.

    Re speaking out - the act of allowing people to have their say then is more important than the actual outcome of it? I think Fe-Ti users tend to be outcome oriented and so assume that the reason for expressing something publicly is to try to retroactively change the decision or to garner public support to put pressure onto those making the decisions. What then is the appropriate way to respond?

    How was it that ENTPs explained their reactions to you and even told you what your motivations were that didn't rankle? I think that would be the number one way of getting under my skin - the person assuming that they knew my thoughts or feelings! Does it feel more removed to you? Is this ENFP individual specific, or would it be true for the whole lot of you?

    So you feel that Te is protective on both sides? How does that work? Can you explain it more? I think I can see how the individual could use it to protect themselves, but how would they trust the other person to protect them with Te? Is it the openness to explore ideas?

    I'm not sure if Fi displays would induce guilt or emotional pain in me, simply because I think I am motivated and guilted by different things. I'm not sure about that, but it did come as a revelation to me that sharing problems with Fi users seems to make them feel my pain firsthand, instead of just secondhand, should they decide to become emotionally involved. Even if I really care about someone, I still am one step removed from their pain, unless it is someone who is almost an extension of myself like a SO or an extremely close family member. I think I probably become personally involved in the emotional issues of a wider breadth of people, but with less raw depth than Fi users seem to. What's it look like from your side of the fence?

    Would you say that Te is stronger in ENFPs who have had more hurt in their past, because they have needed it to protect themselves? I wonder if that is so what the INFJ equivalent of that would be...

    Interesting that Fi is only expressed in particular and occasional circumstances. That would make sense then why it is often misunderstood and still seems kind of murky to me. I would like to ask questions about it, but it seems very individual and doesn't come out enough to observe it and discuss it. Any ideas for how to go about better understanding it?

  4. #44
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    It again occurred to me that I'm doing that question thing again - I like to zero in on the things that I don't understand because I find them interesting, but I've been made aware that this sometimes feels a little - demanding. I think it might be the Fe equivalent of what Te does in its enthusiasm for discussing new ideas - zeroes in on the differences so that it can build understanding from there. In any case, I'm not sure how to go at it better, but it is my way of validating and showing interest in the things you are saying.

  5. #45
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I apologize for backing up to comment on stuff earlier in the thread... I only wandered through here today. These are mostly nitpicks, so feel free to disagree or disregard, as you see fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Because Ti is big on accuracy and only speaks about things it is totally sure about, it is irksome to hear someone state something in absolute terms and then flip flop and still think they're right. What I didn't realize is that whether it's ENFP style Te or Te dom Te, they are actually much more open to restructuring information or an idea than I am. Kind of like putting puzzle pieces right into the spot before deciding whether they should remain because they fit, or something else is better. Ti users would instead examine the colours, the bumps and indents on the puzzle piece, compared with the prospective home for it and reject it much sooner if it didn't work because they are less likely to change it once it is actually in place.
    I think part of this dynamic is just the individual being extraverted vs introverted. I mostly process things internally (or sometimes through writing), so my "growing edge" isn't necessarily that visible to others. I think extraverts in general are likely to process out loud. I had usually thought sounding certain but being changeable was more of a J-trait in general, whereas when a P sounds certain, it often goes all the way to bone. Maybe I'm generalizing from IPs to all Ps, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    This was (and to some extent continues to be) news to me that Te users don't really believe half of what they say as dogmatically as they express it, so it doesn't seem like they are either inaccurate or bossy. They give their listener the credit of evaluating and contributing to the stated idea or theory. To a Ti user, we tend to make sure we trust the source of the idea first, but then are more likely to accept what they say without as rigorous of verbal sparring. Therefore, if I listen to a documentary on dinosaurs from a reputable source, I will assume that I can relax and assimilate the information being given because it is reliable. Otherwise, I would not waste my time on it. I think this is part of what makes me seem kind of inflexible to some people - if I can tell what something is not, I don't want to see what it would look like in my internal system.
    Here I think I disagree with you a bit. I see both Fi and Ti being more egalitarian about source than Fe and Te. For both Te and Fe, the societal structures have value and so do roles and authority. This doesn't mean the Te-ers and Fe-ers believe in every societal structure, but they are much more likely to respect the utility of those structures. This means that someone position is more likely to have an effect on how their "truth" is weighted.

    Fi and Ti are based more on personal understanding and evaluation. It's not enough that "everyone knows" something to be true... you have to work it out for yourself. As a result, since everything has to be worked out personally, the "truth" of a matter is fairly detached from its source. You have to verify it internally, and the external status of someone doesn't matter to the same degree.

    Now both Fi and Ti can be absolutely disdainful of bad process. The person who acts from bad intentions or hypocrisy earns the disdain of Fi. The person who is logically sloppy and imprecise earns the disdain of Ti. So, I think Fi and Ti both will discount a source if its process is shown to be bad. Fe and Te will discount a source for not adopting or following the agreed upon proceeded, and it often has to earn its way to being heard if it doesn't come from a respected source.

    I agree with you that once an Fi-dom or Ti-dom have verified that some individual's process is consistently high quality, they may accept parts without being so picky about reverifying every step.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    This is also why you find Ti users often quantifying everything, which some Te users find wordy and annoying. They assume that they will evaluate the ideas that are stated. We assume that if they trust us, they may not as rigorously and we want to distribute accurate information.
    Again, I nitpick! I think Te is much more about measurement and quantification. I think Ti is more about qualitative precision. The statements and terms used must be absolutely accurate, because precision is everything. Fi can be equally picky about the connotations of word choice, because precision of feeling and value is everything.

    This can drive others crazy when a Ji-dom picks apart statements, and forces agreement on precise definitions before discussion can continue.

    Like I just tried to do.

  6. #46
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Interesting thread. Won't insert myself much here, just a couple of little things popped into my mind as I read:


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    What I didn't realize is that whether it's ENFP style Te or Te dom Te, they are actually much more open to restructuring information or an idea than I am. ... This was (and to some extent continues to be) news to me that Te users don't really believe half of what they say as dogmatically as they express it, so it doesn't seem like they are either inaccurate or bossy.
    You make me think of traveling stories with my husband fidelia ... driving to places we've never been before (pre-GPS), he would narrate our next move, for example, "We need to make a right on Pine St." Sometimes I would feel pretty sure that this next move was wrong, but he would sound certain, so I wouldn't interject and disagree. He would make the turn, and then we'd be going the wrong way, and I would say, "Hmmm, I thought that turn was wrong..." and in reply he would express frustration that I didn't speak up. "If you knew it was wrong, why did you let me turn?" He was happy to be contradicted - even though Te can sound so sure, a mature Te user is generally very open to correction. In fact, at times, I think it's practically expected.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I guess this is another example of the Fi-Ti dichotomy. It also explains why the NFPs would get wound up by Sim every time, even though he consistently would manipulate the situation in the same way and then call them whiny, butthurt etc. They were reacting to his laughing at their feelings (and by extension, rejection of their values and essence of who they were) just as we would to someone mocking our thoughts and ideas that had been painstakingly developed.
    True, but he would continually re-engage ... the Ne wouldn't need time to retreat and reformulate ... in that way, he could be challenged, and he would update his Ti models accordingly when convinced they merited amendment. He wasn't intractable in that way. One could pass "muster".


    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I picked up almost immediately that my input was not wanted nor was my opinion considered valid. Why? Not because what I said wasn’t valid. Not because my feedback was incorrect. But because I was Esoteric Wench. That is to say that some people had decided from my previous posts that I was hostile to INFJs. Thus, they had reasoned that my input was not wanted in an INFJ thread. Furthermore, it felt like I had to be on the approved list to be able to provide input in that thread.
    Likely I repped you "Danger, Danger!"

    Myself, I have built up some credibility / collateral during my time at the forum, but maybe not enough to make my latest thread. We'll see.

    Let the Best Argument Win. I assumed that you were operating under the same assumption that I was which was that whoever made the best logical argument would carry the day. Under my assumption, who made the argument didn’t matter. Their agenda didn’t matter. All that mattered was validity of their argument.
    Whole post very well expressed from your POV EW.

    A story about "May The Best Argument Win" ... waaaaaay back in high school, I had a good friend, who upon reflection, am pretty sure was INFJ. We used to have debates and would discuss points of commonality but we often had opposing viewpoints on different subjects. I enjoyed our banter, found it interesting, energizing. One day - it was in Gr 13 Calculus class actually - I differed in opinion on the answer to a question. She said to me with much venom, "You always disagree with what answer I think is the right one. You always argue with me. If you argue with me on this (question) I won't ever talk to you again." Now, understand I was floored for a moment and told her I didn't understand, why was debating the answer bad. She told me I was only looking to argue and she hated it. So, not really understanding the implications of pressing the issue, I did, and she door-slammed me ... haven't talked to her since that day. I've tried to locate her over the years ... never have been able to. To me, debates. To her, arguments. Sad I never picked up on how much she felt pushed ... how offended she felt when her ideas were challenged.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I actually really loved Sim and the other young entps as they would Ne with me, then poke holes in my rambles as they didnt listen to Fe enough to not be rude . However if they could see the idea too..it often meant it had passed a bit of the Ti test, thus had merit.
    as above ...

    I work in programming, so I see it as the NT / Ti litmus test ... once you've passed and demonstrated competence, you are in.



    interestingly-Fi users protest in groups. You can ignore the solitary enfp as being emo-but if a group of enfps or a trusted enfp, say something is Fi flawed, it is given more credence. This might correlate to how Ti users dont actually claim the idea as theirs openly unless very trusted-but instead the entire group supports the idea. It gives the idea more credibility perhaps. But I dont know for sure.
    Yes, kind of like my thread atm. Fi in isolation is more easily dismissed or gets less credibility than Fi in numbers, IMO. To me though too, one little voice of Fi is like the canary in the coal mine at times ... for one Fi user speaking up, there are probably a whack more who are thinking something but saying nothing. That's been borne out in my real world experiences time and time again.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #47
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Great food for thought...

    Re canary in the coal mine - It's interesting that Fi usually feels that Fe tries to pressure Fi users to conform by enlisting the help of the group to make their point. It's rare that Fe will bring something up that they haven't already confirmed will be backed up by the others in the group. However, it's usually because they use other people's mirrors to check that this is indeed a relevant issue to more people than only them and that they are not just over reacting. Regardless, it has the effect of making sure there is social support for the objection being made.

    It appears to me that because Fi users loathe cohearsion and because Fi is very individually driven, they tend not to check with the people around them for support and consensus before bringing something up. As a result, they are not organized into a group and are more easily dismissed by others. A Fi user may defend another Fi user's right to speak, even if they disagree with the point being made. Fe tends to only feel the point being made is important if other people find it important too (even if it may be a small group compared to the vast majority).

  8. #48
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Well, Fi must go public at some point in order to "check-in" with more people - I might bounce my thoughts and feelings off of a (very) few trusted people, but that's just the first litmus test. Once I have amassed enough data to come to a preliminary conclusion of my own, I will reach out to others in order to get more input and feedback, to either confirm or invalidate my hypothesis.

    Otherwise, the Fi POV remains hidden. As much as it might make an Fe user cringe to hear this, it takes some courage to stand up and proclaim Fi, it's scary to put oneself on the line. Only when I speak up can I determine whether my intuition and feelings are accurate to the group or possessed primarily by myself.

    But there's often a great deal of thought behind taking action; it isn't just an impulse of the moment.

    First, one has to feel confident having done the necessary factual due diligence to feel close to the pulse of what's happening in the group, to frequently and accurately see, hear and feel the vibe that stuff is wrong from multiple people at multiple times, in different scenarios.

    Second, one needs to have enough credibility in the group in order to weather the inevitable rebuffs that will come from an Fi proclamation - there are initial knee-jerk reactions to any kind of criticism levied against the group. This can come in the form of censure, ridicule or being ostracized. For example, folks that used to talk to you, aren't as communicative. These can be Fi or Fe users btw - Fe users use these tools to realign individuals back to the group, and Fi users distance themselves from people they see receiving the group's "special" attention in order to protect themselves.

    Third, one needs to build a case for one's cause in order to convince the group in the legitimacy of the claim. Amass enough feedback and data that the group simply cannot ignore it. Then, change can hopefully occur.

    When I have led groups such as saving rural schools (or other causes I have felt close to my heart), I start with Fi but need to use both Fe and Fi strategies working with the people; I need data that appeals to both Te and Ti, and I need to use the Ne to brainstorm strategies and have enough Ni to see the future outcomes of any given path we will proceed upon. Then, that hits the pavement with the real world stuff: Se to get out there and be visible, Si to use heritage and precedent to my advantage. It's a whole package, but it all starts with Fi - the call to action. Fi offers the strength of conviction to press on through the tough spots.

    The world seldom accommodates an individual POV in favor of a group, even if it's the right one. That's why in order to be successful, individuals must pull together, must be heard together.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #49
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Also, you're right re. this. There ARE many different external options -- so in a sense, the external is pretty arbitrary. We just happen to have put thought into why we have chosen one of these ways over another. (usually there's a lot of reason behind it, but you're right, sometimes there's not much at all and it's just habit and there's a much better way)

    Flip this around. You can say the same thing about internal things/values - there are 'many different internal options'. So they too are arbitrary, in much the same sense you might view external behaviors being arbitrary. But again, doesn't mean a lot of thought isn't put into the why behind why you've chosen one internal 'way' of viewing things. It's just that the J's are going to concentrate efforts on honing external things and making that precise/solid, and P's are going to focus efforts on internal solidity.

    (urg... I'm kinda making this up as I go so I'm sure it isn't entirely accurate)

    Basically it's just two sides of the same coin (well, sort of ) -- and thank heavens everyone isn't solely internally perceiving without any external judgment, or solely internal judging without any external perceiving. And... it's why J's and P's can learn & gain from one another.
    wow i'm sorry i didn't reply to this forever ago! so many threads to keep track of

    anyway - yeah, i agree with you, two sides of the same coin. and i think we both run into problems when we misunderstand one another...

    an interesting example just occurred to me, in which a Fe dom friend of mine asked something in a rather cold way to a mutual friend of ours - obviously throwing him (ISFP, i think) onto the defense. then later when myself and my friend were together without our mutual friend, i pointed out that she was rather harsh to him, but agreed with her implication, and she replied that she was just throwing it out there to see our mutual friend's reaction. we each had the other all wrong - i saw her as being cold outside and wishy-washy inside, and she saw me as being cold inside and wishy-washy outside. the truth is, we both like our mutual friend but feel concerned about the direction in which he's taking a group that we were once in charge of. we manifested that same feeling in very different ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    Well, Fi must go public at some point in order to "check-in" with more people - I might bounce my thoughts and feelings off of a (very) few trusted people, but that's just the first litmus test. Once I have amassed enough data to come to a preliminary conclusion of my own, I will reach out to others in order to get more input and feedback, to either confirm or invalidate my hypothesis.
    yes, i feel this too. Fi is doubly subjective... intrapersonal and illogical... sometimes you just have to check your reality compass and make sure its bearings are still right, lol. i've also often found that when i speak up, many others will agree, both Fi and not-Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Oh! One other thing I thought of - with Ne constantly updating new models, sometimes I've heard others express this and I've occasionally thought it myself: it seems at times like the ENFP is wasting our time with a bunch of theories or ideas that they haven't taken the time to do the homework on. It would be like indiscriminately handing us all kinds of puzzle pieces, willy-nilly saying enthusiastically, "Hey! This one. This one will work for sure! I know it!" when it's obvious that it's not the right shape or the colours are wrong etc. I think to myself, "Did you even think about this before saying it. And NOW you want me to take the course of action you reccommend even though you clearly keep changing all the time yourself?

    I believe the same issue is at play when ENFPs change their plans often. They really, really do mean it at the time when they say something, but then everything changes again and they have to reacquaint themselves with the new reality. For an INFJ who doesn't enjoy emotional surprises especially, but also takes adjustment time when changing plans and so on, it can be hard to deal with.

    I assume this is a Te-Ti issue in combination with the jumping aroundness of Ne. On the other side of the spectrum, you guys consider many things I never would and I sometimes tend to over-eliminate. It allows you to be more open and innovative as well as accept change and new ideas in a group without needing the same kind of mental adjustment time.


    yeah, i guess it can seem like indescriminate information overload. to me, i want you to make your own decision about the value of the information - i don't want to filter something out that i've missed value in, when you might find it. it's not "this one will work for sure!", it's that every piece - every bit of information in the universe - is valuable in some way. because each piece of information can be personalized, i can't often know if the shape or color is wrong for you. it may have value to you that it doesn't to me, and i don't want to throw away something that might be pivotal for you. if i know you VERY well, i can start to eliminate information, but it's still a place of relative discomfort for me. on the other hand, i can fit pieces into my own puzzle, and come up with a solution independent of yours.

    as for changing plans often, there are just so many options that will work. P and Te don't search for that same refinement that J and Ti do, so it's cool to change plans. actually that's why i end up feeling like my life revolves around Js when i'm with them sometimes. we have to have The Plan and stick to it. it's really weird in my mind. i see the advantage, to a certain extent, but in some other ways it feels really limiting.

    I think you're onto something with the Ti-Fi thing, Orobas. This is one of the reasons why we actually do believe it's HARMFUL to put false information out there. If it comes from a trusted source, it has power to damage, just as an indisciminate person given access to a Fi users innermost feelings could wreak havoc.
    that's really interesting. to me, information is so take-it-or-leave-it. i always fact-check and almost never accept sources of authority as a given. i don't really care who said it, if it doesn't make sense to me, it's getting the living hell probed out of it. i guess maybe to Fe/Ti emotions are the same way?

    I would way rather have my feelings made fun of than my thoughts. I would feel horrifically rejected and embarrassed if someone were to respond with laughter to my thoughts, even though I wouldn't as much if they got a kick out of how mad I was about something etc. Even as an adult with more perspective, I would find this really hard to deal with.
    wow, yeah, i'm EXACTLY the opposite. i don't really care if you think my thoughts aren't right. they're not me - they're just ideas. sure i have some pet ideas, but we're always getting in new information and maybe there's something i missed. but your wording is perfect - i feel horrifically rejected and embarrassed when someone responds to my feelings with mockery. it seems like they ultimate in cruelty. and that's exactly where i think a lot of threads have gone south - the Fi guide, to be sure. that's exactly how i felt in that one. many people seemed like they had no interest in critiquing ideas, they just kept writing off Fi feelings. though given what you said, critiquing ideas would be an attack? but then... how do we make progress with ideas?

    I remember when I was about six talking at the table with my parents about what year it was in the Chinese calendar as our friends were Chinese. I said that it was "the year of the pony" and I remember being absolutely mortified when my parents looked amused and corrected me. They weren't even mean about it, but I still remember the complete embarrassment and sadness I felt.


    Music I like, people I like, pursuits I enjoy - they are all extensions of me and so rejection/mocking of them is felt as rejection/mocking of me.
    this has come up in some other thread... accidentally hurting an NFJ's feelings via extension... so, question being, how do you critique a subject when you enjoy it? i don't mean to say that everything should be critiqued, but like, the topic's not just closed to discussion, is it?

    They were reacting to his laughing at their feelings (and by extension, rejection of their values and essence of who they were) just as we would to someone mocking our thoughts and ideas that had been painstakingly developed.

    a row of little nodding heads for you!

    it's really an excellent point. it probably explains a whole lot of conflict on these forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Looking back on things, I can't believe how much I didn't understand what the Fe/Ti user was doing. I'm pretty good at reading people, but this dynamic completely went under my radar. <Insert self-directed ugh here.>
    ME TOO

    This puzzled me because it seemed to me so obvious that I was distressed. But this was a projection on my part. I ASSUMED they knew what I knew which was that I was clicking into Te mode BECAUSE I was stressed out. So I think you bring up a very good point, Fidelia, that when defensive Te comes out, it can seem offensive (in the sense of it being on the attack) because the auxiliary Te user (i.e., ENFPs) seems so confident and assured in what he/she is saying.
    yes, this happens to me often as well. Fe/Ti users often don't understand that my attack is my defense. it's because i don't believe that anything's ever accomplished by walling anyone off - possibly a P vs J thing - i don't want to burn bridges, even temporarily (after all, even though i'm mad at you, it doesn't mean you don't have good ideas, and it doesn't mean you don't hold value to me) - so to use enneagram language, i go towards people when i'm stressed out, whereas Fe/Ti users seem to move away.

    Let the Best Argument Win.
    yeah, i have to echo this, because this bothers me a lot sometimes about Fe/Ti, especially Fe dom/aux. they'll take on an "authority"/mentor/teacher and not really question their ideas, or, worse, they'll throw someone's ideas out because they're momentarily (or permanently) displeased with that person. it doesn't make any sense to me... imo, you should never stop questioning someone's ideas just because you like them, and, even more importantly, just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they won't come up with a brilliant idea.

    after all, the information you're exposed to, and how it gets recombined in your mind... it's random, to a certain extent. i'm not fully responsible for all the good ideas i come up with. i feel like it's just stumbling upon a truth that was already there. i guess that was part of my problem in the Fi Guide thread. i didn't feel like the words i was using were particularly anyone's - either they were useful or they weren't; either they were more accurate to the majority or they weren't. it seems ridiculous to "claim" phrases, to a certain extent.

    plagiarism in general, high sin of academia - i mean i respect it so i don't get in trouble, and i don't have a problem with giving other people credit, but - honestly, it's kind of silly, in my opinion. you can't lay claim to a truth. it belongs only to itself. sure, you can be the one to uncover that, and an "expert" would be someone very familiar with a certain bank of truths and who often uncovers truths themself, but that doesn't stop anyone else from discovering them, either. it's like - you don't need to be an ENFP to uncover truths about ENFPs, but you do need to be an ENFP to fully understand how it feels to be an ENFP. hence critiquing an idea is okay - anyone can discover a truth - but critiquing a feeling is much more dangerous ground, because you are not privy to the full range of circumstances which invoked that feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    When you see Fe/Ti users not engaging as much, often it is a sign that there is some snag that you've hit. If you continue speaking to them and they seem a little bit edgy, this is a good place to go back and mentally try to figure out where the snag occurred. If given some space, they may re-evaluate and extract the useful parts from your conversation and give you the benefit of the doubt.
    while i get this, doesn't it seem kind of unfair? i don't really have any opinion on EW's participation in the INFJ conversation - especially because i did not read the thread and have no idea what happened - but it sounds so much like the Fe person totally controls the conversation - they decide if and when someone gets their ideas considered.

    What about for you? It appears to me that Te especially comes out as a defensive reaction for you, but because it appears strong, it may not be interpreted as you just acting in self-defense or trying to solve a difficult situation. How can we avoid these kind of clashes happening? For me, I need space at the first hint of danger and staying on the doorstep until you have been invited in. What is it for you? What sparks those kinds of reactions for you?
    i know this wasn't directed at me but i'm gonna answer anyway

    in response to what i bolded - not considering ideas on their own merit, basically. it throws me into YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR THIS WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT mode, because at that point, i see the idea as more important than myself.

    ooh, fidelia, do you remember the conversation we were having a while ago in the Fe/Fi thread, where there was PB's post about a situation in which she'd openly exposed a situation regarding a ladder at her workplace? this reminds me of that area in the conversation - it's like, i think Ne-Fi users are sometimes ready to sacrifice themself for their ideas because we see certain ideals as more important and more lasting than ourselves. like EW (and correct me if this is wrong) was willing to sacrifice a pleasant rapport with you because she felt like the idea she wanted to share was just that important - probably because she felt like it could improve the lives of many INFJs. i think this is that same sacrifice of good relations for the achievement of an ideal.

    basically, what i need is for the other person to let me express my idea without any prejudgment based on personal factors. i'm afraid that our needs under stress clash somewhat, though. you don't want to let my idea in until you trust me, and i don't want you judging my ideas based off trust.

    so one of us has to give... either i have to be willing to work to build rapport (though by the time that's happened, it might be too late for the idea to help as much as it once could have) - or you have to be willing to suspend trust to hear my idea (though it might turn out to be a "dangerous" idea after all) . but really i think both of those parenthetical concerns are falsities. if the idea is a good one, it shouldn't matter how long it takes to be revealed. and "dangerous" ideas can be quickly disarmed simply by demonstrating their flaws.

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    I have many comments I want to address....however in dealing with a customer today I really got to see how Fe vs Te interact in influencing the decisions of others.

    We are trying to sell a very expensive piece of scientific instrumentation.

    I feel that if I show them data on the instrument-it should stand independent of me and the customer will make the choice to purchase off the data shown to them, not what I tell them.

    However the ENTP and the ENFJ I am working with are all about "positioning". Basically, once the sales team has a good relationship with the customer, by identifying the customers doubts, then positioning against each doubt, they can convince the customer that they should purchase the system-even without seeing any data.

    I cant emphasize how weird this is for me. I would never trust someone at their word-but only at the solid evidence they provide-the data. But by simply saying words over and over again in the right way....the ENTP and ENFJ both feel as though they can sway the person's opinion about data.

    This is a really strange break point in my job as it explains why the sales team can be so frustrating-they seek selling points and verbiage to go along with the selling points-and i just look at them and go "Doesnt the data speak for itself?"

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