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  1. #21
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    ^just a note on absolutes and ENFPs. I personally have a BIG problem with quantifying my opinions. And when people point out I'm being too extreme it pisses me off to no end, because they I have to explain how I really feel, but the things is I don't want to explain how I really feel because my statements are usually very political and are meant to produce an effect to balance other people's opinions out and also to make me believe I DONT live in a completely relative world....

    Okay, I'm making no sense. Just forget it :P

  2. #22
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moiety View Post
    ^just a note on absolutes and ENFPs. I personally have a BIG problem with quantifying my opinions. And when people point out I'm being too extreme it pisses me off to no end, because they I have to explain how I really feel, but the things is I don't want to explain how I really feel because my statements are usually very political and are meant to produce an effect to balance other people's opinions out and also to make me believe I DONT live in a completely relative world....

    Okay, I'm making no sense. Just forget it :P
    heh.

    was i supposed to be reading 'thinking' instead of 'feeling' about these subjects? because a person asking you how you feel and what you think are two different questions. one doesn't require personal information.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    I think I used the word feel correctly. From an emotional standpoint I'm usually a very compassionate guy. But I'm not a slave to my emotional and I understand people aren't swayed by my personal feelings on matters. I mean I'm just one guy. It's much easier to come to a consensus via thinking than it is via feeling.

    I'd be much more agreeable if I expressed my true feelings on things. I'm usually more theatrical as if I had passionate views on everything....when really what I want is to influence the course of the conversation. I start by saying "I hate yuppies!" when I don't really, to evolve the conversation into the basic idea that success and money are not important.

    But yeah, just disregard my posts, this is probably my very personal experience. I'm a bit of a contrarian ENFP.

  4. #24
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    This is a REALLY interesting point. For me, if I present an idea, I always assume the other person will be capable of thinking through and evaluating it. Thus I would never not share an idea, even a total bullshit one. There is no danger or worry in my mind that an incorrect idea might take root. If it sucks, the idea will be dismantled and rebuilt, discarded, or might serve as a tidbit to give fruition to someone else's idea.

    However I have ran into a few of INTPs and INFJs over the last few months who do exhibit concern. Simply by sharing the idea, it seems they cant assume the other person is actually able to think independently thus there is a sense of worry. Almost like the idea is a pathogen, and once released people will just believe it because it was spoken? I am seeing shades of this in your above quote as well.
    Right...well, I think the problem is that half the planet, when they speak, will only speak when they've already formulated what's in their mind and they fully believe in and have put thought into what they're saying, and it's a 'done deal', so to speak, whereas the other half of the planet will be a bit more freeform in what they say and apparently don't always believe what they're saying or it's at the very least not solid at all, yet, and the act of speaking/discussing is partially what causes structure to form. I had always thought the latter was a bit more of an E thing, or more of an Ne thing specifically, but apparently there's more to it than that.

    For myself, to be totally honest I have a harder time grasping people who aren't committed to what they say, so I don't deal as well with solving for things externally, i.e. reaching clarity through this external process...

    -----------

    Re. ENFP's and being controlling... I tend to think P's have a special flavor of control... it's very subtle but very different from J's, which is why it's so disconcerting to me. I think it's tied to the Fi or Ti (dom/aux introverted function) being placed in some sort of danger or being dismissed on some level. It can be more of a passive aggressive controlling... really relying on that Fi or Ti and diminishing/belittling the other person for not having that internally rigid Fi/Ti value or logical contruct, questioning motives, emotional manipulation, and the like - striking inwardly, in the persons' psychae, basically attacking their [lack of] internal framework - more of an internal/identity attack...trying to change the internal landscape of the person. Whereas J's, with Ni or Si as the dom/aux introverted function, lacking in 'structure' to begin with (in comparison to Fi/Ti), will impose control by striking outwardly - in more external ways, i.e. organization, specific behaviors that are expected, & etc...trying to change the external landscape of the person.

    This of course is a generalization, but it does support what pretty much all of the ENFP's in this thread have said - that they hate controlling others, and only control themselves. If we're talking external control, in terms of behaviors, etc, yes, I'd agree. But if there is a clash with the Fi, the ENFP will be quite controlling in the sense of more personal attacks/judgements to the other - going more towards internal character questioning and diminishing the others' sense of self. Their motivation might be from a good place, but the act of challenging/questioning in effect reduces/invalidates the other person and their own beliefs and sense of self. Moiety even sort of said it... that he likes to challenge people and 'likes to help others become better'. Well... 'better' according to you? According to your values, that would be. That's fine, but again, with a values clash, that comes across as exceedingly controlling in the sense of a lack of acceptance/toleration of someone who views things differently. Anyway... this is the gist of how I experienced Control with an enfp I dated a long while back. He was trying to change me, and some of my views were unacceptable/unfathomable, and I felt quite boxed in by him.

    I think any type is going to feel controlled when someone tries to impose structure/order on ones most unstructured aspect - because the unstructured aspect is 'freeing' for us, even elemental, as it's necessary and balancing out the more structured aspects. So, a P trying to impose some sort of order on the internal aspect of a J is going to seem quite controlling, and *limiting*, just as a J trying to impose some sort of order on an external aspect of a P is going to seem controlling and limiting. And, a P may not care so much if another P tries to impose unwanted internal structure (or at least won't deem it controlling), because the first P already has solidity internally and the other P isn't going to be as much of a threat. Just as a J isn't going to see another J imposing external as as much of a threat, because the first J already has his own external system in order that works for him and isn't going to care so much if the other tries to change him - because he either won't change and is solid enough in that in the first place and isn't influenceable (lol.. I don't think that's a word), or the external piece doesn't matter and any sort of structure is desired.

    Eh..sorry..that was one big tangent that may not have much validity.
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  5. #25
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    just to be clear, i state outrageous crap all the time as if i believe it, but it's done 'theatrically' as was stated above. it's meant to be understood that i'm deliberately spouting bullcrap in an overblown way.

    i'd probably never speak if i couldn't start conversations that way at least sometimes.
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  6. #26
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ...the Fe/Ti user expects you to get it logically right and cordial the first time you speak and you don't, and then they get pissed. and you're like JUST WAIT A SECOND WHILE I FIGURE OUT WHAT I MEAN. :sad:
    Yessirree Bob! That's exactly what I do. Sometimes I'll say something, THEN I'll figure out if it's true.

    This, of course, reminds me of one of my favorite lines from one of my favorite movies: The Royal Tenenbaums. The irascible Royal is trying to cajole his ex-wife into forgiving him for lying to her about him having terminal cancer.

    Royal: Look, I know I'm gonna be the bad guy on this one. But I just wanna say the last six days have been the best six days of probably my whole life.
    Narrator: Immediately after making this statement, Royal realized that it was true.

    I always figured it was the Ne thing coupled with my diarrhea of the mouth extraversion. Perhaps it is my Te articulating my Fi.
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  7. #27
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    ENFP would be amongst the types least likely to be seen as controlling.

    However, as Si is their inferior function it is often approached in an obsessive way as it's the hardest for us to master i.e. in your mother's case it seems being obsessed that certain standards are being adhered - if she is an ENFP it would be very draining for her to keep this up for long (unlike an Si-dom) as using the inferior function has the highest energy cost.

    Most of the Ne dom's I know their Si fetish takes the form of rich detail note taking about a particular interest or a collecting hobby ...

    I posted a bit more about inferior function manifestations here.

  8. #28
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    With respect to Digest's experiment about the narrator saying a dino was the first mammal:

    My immediate response would be a series of giggles. I would find it hysterical as I would read it as a broken, silly Ne misconnection and laugh. Then I'd figure somebody was going to get their asses kicked over that screwup. Possible some little kids are going to go around a bit confused for awhile, but eventually it will get sorted out. HOWEVER-the sorting out relies upon having many, many ideas all equally available for consideration. If I read in ten books that dinos are reptiles, but hear on one show that dinos are mammals, I dont disregard the show outright, but I question it and place it in the "doubtful" box. I would immediately request data to support the assertion that differs so drastically from what I have known in the past or just ignore it if I dont feel like following up on it.

    One important aspect-note I said "books" and not people. If I am setting at lunch or a conference and everyone in the room agreed that dinos were mammals, I would assume they were ridiculously stupid, then go find source materials to prove if I was correct or incorrect.

    Also-ideas are separate from the person who had the idea. Thus it doesnt matter WHO has an idea-Jesus, a nobel laureate or the bum on the corner...the idea still is mostly considered in isolation from me or them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Yessirree Bob! That's exactly what I do. Sometimes I'll say something, THEN I'll figure out if it's true.

    This, of course, reminds me of one of my favorite lines from one of my favorite movies: The Royal Tenenbaums. The irascible Royal is trying to cajole his ex-wife into forgiving him for lying to her about him having terminal cancer.

    Royal: Look, I know I'm gonna be the bad guy on this one. But I just wanna say the last six days have been the best six days of probably my whole life.
    Narrator: Immediately after making this statement, Royal realized that it was true.

    I always figured it was the Ne thing coupled with my diarrhea of the mouth extraversion. Perhaps it is my Te articulating my Fi.
    Oh, this will give Digest seizures ....but...

    My teenage ENFP son and 3 yo INTJ son were in the car with me. The INTJ loves Thomas the Train and went to visit Thomas at a recent event. The ENFP, being a mean teenager, starts down the path of saying "Well you know Thomas is only on TV right?"

    INTJ: "No, Ethan, I SAW Thomas, Thomas travels on Rails."
    ENFP: "That's not the REAL Thomas, it wasnt REAL."
    INTJ: "No Thomas can go back and forth on the tracks"
    ENFP: "No stupid, Thomas isnt .....(muffled) real" as I slapped my hand over his mouth

    I told the older kid-"Dont tell him that he isnt real, he loves Thomas"

    INTJ-"What isnt real mommy? Thomas is real, he lives on Sodor island surrounded by water. Is something not real?

    Me-"Oh, honey, Thomas is real, you saw him....Umm, Islands aren't real."

    This sort of insanity always stops the little INTJ. He gets the "INTJ Violation of the Laws of Reality" look. The best I can figure this look means that an NiTe cognitive train wreck has occurred. While the INTJ tries to untangle the mess, the ENFP can smile and skip away. The best I can figure it is a subconcious diversionary tactic.

    Later the little INTJ pulled me aside to educate me.

    "Mommy...Thomas lives on an ISLAND. ISLANDS are surrounded by water. Thomas' shed is on the ISLAND." I said "Oh, that makes total sense!" and he seemed satisfied that he had correctly my defective reasoning and went back to playing with his toys.

  9. #29
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Yessirree Bob! That's exactly what I do. Sometimes I'll say something, THEN I'll figure out if it's true.

    This, of course, reminds me of one of my favorite lines from one of my favorite movies: The Royal Tenenbaums. The irascible Royal is trying to cajole his ex-wife into forgiving him for lying to her about him having terminal cancer.

    Royal: Look, I know I'm gonna be the bad guy on this one. But I just wanna say the last six days have been the best six days of probably my whole life.
    Narrator: Immediately after making this statement, Royal realized that it was true.
    ! i know right!!

    i haven't seen that movie but that sounds like something i would do lol.

    I always figured it was the Ne thing coupled with my diarrhea of the mouth extraversion. Perhaps it is my Te articulating my Fi.
    i actually don't even talk a ton - i'm one of those more introverted extraverts lol - but i'm with you on both counts. i guess it can upset people because (1) Ne can see a huge amount of possibly contradicting ideas and if they seem really relevant, we'll tend to voice them, regardless of whether they contradict or not, and (2) Fi is really freaking hard to vocalize in a succinct manner. but the Fi things are the most important to talk about, so we're kind of stuck in a shitty corner there.

    for example, whenever i write an emotionally charged post on here i have to edit it tons of times before i'm satisfied that i've unearthed my real meaning. sometimes i feel like i get an intuitive grasp of "something is not right here" (Fi) but i don't know what it is, and logically organizing it on paper (or out loud) helps me dig through to figure out what it is. that's the other part of me talking/yelling a ton when i get upset. i'm one, trying to protect myself, and two, trying to explain what's going on in my mind, because i figure both parties will appreciate the clarification. they usually do, once i'm done being a raging fireball of RAWR. (working on that... :blushing

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    For myself, to be totally honest I have a harder time grasping people who aren't committed to what they say, so I don't deal as well with solving for things externally, i.e. reaching clarity through this external process...
    haha i have the same trouble with the other half. it's strange to me because it feels like they want all words set in stone... it's so restricting, and it makes it feel like i'm always about to make a mistake.

    Re. ENFP's and being controlling... I tend to think P's have a special flavor of control... it's very subtle but very different from J's, which is why it's so disconcerting to me. I think it's tied to the Fi or Ti (dom/aux introverted function) being placed in some sort of danger or being dismissed on some level. It can be more of a passive aggressive controlling... really relying on that Fi or Ti and diminishing/belittling the other person for not having that internally rigid Fi/Ti value or logical contruct, questioning motives, emotional manipulation, and the like - striking inwardly, in the persons' psychae, basically attacking their [lack of] internal framework - more of an internal/identity attack...trying to change the internal landscape of the person. Whereas J's, with Ni or Si as the dom/aux introverted function, lacking in 'structure' to begin with (in comparison to Fi/Ti), will impose control by striking outwardly - in more external ways, i.e. organization, specific behaviors that are expected, & etc...trying to change the external landscape of the person.
    well said, and i agree.

    though i hate the designation passive-aggressive, because it's not meant to be kept hidden, or to be vindictive, or to go behind anyone's back. i do get why it comes off that way. the way i see it personally, is that in general, everyone should be allowed to act as they please without redirection and interference from others. social standards shouldn't be restricting; everyone should be able to act as they please - up until the point where they are hurting others. that's the line that i see that others cross in my mind, and that's when i'll get controlling.

    it also doesn't feel like identity attack to me as much as "hey, are you really sure that makes sense?" i feel like some people have very peculiar external standards that they seem to enforce without really knowing why. they see it as the best way, because it's effective in some way, but haven't really questioned its grounds. this is especially relevant for a Ne dom/aux because we see so many different options.

    i also don't feel like my internal structure is restricting... i feel like it's necessary. how could i be confident in myself if i didn't have the internal me somewhat figured out? i guess maybe external structure feels the same way for Js - necessary, instead of restricting. what does it feel like to not have a solid internal structure?

    And, a P may not care so much if another P tries to impose unwanted internal structure (or at least won't deem it controlling), because the first P already has solidity internally and the other P isn't going to be as much of a threat. Just as a J isn't going to see another J imposing external as as much of a threat, because the first J already has his own external system in order that works for him and isn't going to care so much if the other tries to change him - because he either won't change and is solid enough in that in the first place and isn't influenceable (lol.. I don't think that's a word), or the external piece doesn't matter and any sort of structure is desired.
    that's really interesting. i was trying to figure out the whole thing about internal changes because i don't feel very internally threatened by other FPs or TPs. i mean it can be annoying, but not threatening.

    to me it's still strange to get how external systemization could be less of a threat than internal systemization - because there's a huge difference in that i can never really change your internal world. it's entirely inside of you. it's not grounds i can ever really be threatening on, because i don't even have access to it unless you let me. the external world, on the other hand... to use the extreme example - hitler, and the crazy-ass external system he was the mastermind of. that system hurt and killed countless people, and they often had very, very little control over it. they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. maybe internal restrictions seem as threatening as external restrictions, but i can never crack open your brain and change anything. the person who is creating external restrictions, on the other hand, can and does permanently affect everyone's lives.

    which is not bad, persay. i know plenty of Fe doms who make the world a wonderful place, and i Te streamline, myself, to a certain extent. i just think external systemization is harder to escape, and so i try not to enforce my own personal preferences on others until i feel like they are hurting someone else. of course, i suppose the problem there is that "hurting" to me might be positive in others' minds. like trying to suppress or change anyone who's LGBTQ - which is cruel and petty in my mind, but fixing a threat to "good society" according to some politicians and religious leaders.

    i guess don't really feel bad about being controlling in that way, though...

  10. #30
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i also don't feel like my internal structure is restricting... i feel like it's necessary. how could i be confident in myself if i didn't have the internal me somewhat figured out? i guess maybe external structure feels the same way for Js - necessary, instead of restricting. what does it feel like to not have a solid internal structure?
    What does it feel like to not have solid internal structure? It means I don't have solid views on many things, and I find most viewpoints - the essence of them - highly subjective (well, duh) and therefore somewhat 'baseless' in the grander scheme, because Person A has such and such views, and Person B has a set of different views, I can see both peoples' perspectives, and because I can see both, I can't really commit. They're both 'Right' in different ways, thus there's no Absolute Right. (Or, maybe worded differently, I'm ever trying to nab that 'Absolute Right' for myself and views on the world. ] That sort of thing. That's a tiny example.

    that's really interesting. i was trying to figure out the whole thing about internal changes because i don't feel very internally threatened by other FPs or TPs. i mean it can be annoying, but not threatening.

    to me it's still strange to get how external systemization could be less of a threat than internal systemization - because there's a huge difference in that i can never really change your internal world.
    Ah..but see, you can. That's a distinction. That's why it's a potential threat - because I know since I'm not solid in the first place on many things, and simply switch how I look at things, I'm potentially easily swayed. [Assuming it's not one of my own personal beliefs that I've put a lot of thought, contemplation, research, etc on] From what I just said above - at the flip of a switch I can tweak my brain to look at it from another angle, and I fear that 'influence' others might have -- even if it's temporary -- because I might see their point, but a few weeks later I might have thought more on it and decided in fact that's not in the end something I can stomach. Or whatever. Basically without the initial internal solidity - values framework, whatever - I'm quite malleable and it's often a very Delayed Response where I figure out what *I* actually believe in. A lot of it might be trial and error or sitting on something for a while and realizing in the end it doesn't make sense to me or whatever. But it's not something I know, or am totally solid on, initially.

    [To be clear, though, no, you can't change many aspects of my internal world, in terms of how I process things, basic personality traits, etc - but the content? Oh yes.]

    It's kind of why I was trying to break it down into P's and J's -- not that we're all going to be as extreme in one way or another -- but just that distinction between the Internal being the threat for J's, and the External being the threat for P's.
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