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  1. #11
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    My ENTP wants to kill enfps over this one. She says it is hideously offensive, as , since she is a Ti user, the RIGHT answer is never really known, thus should never be presented verbally as REALLY known.
    heh. that's exactly what i was thinking while reading this.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Wow! This has got to be the post of the year for me. I think this is EXACTLY what is going on between me and some of the Fe/Ti users on this forum. Thank you Orobas. Thank you.
    Still collecting more data! This is so incomplete.

    Quote Originally Posted by tawanda View Post
    Wow, nice!

    I agree with the communication differences, and how it can cause us to disagree, but (this may also sound controlling, but I don't want it to be) how could I help her change how she communicates with me so there are less and less misinterpretations between us, so that she can say what she meant to say in the first place, and vice versa with me communicating with her?
    Back in your OP, you asked if the ENFPs had "too much Te to handle". There may be a bit of value to replace that with "Does an EXTP have too much Fe to handle?" In both cases, we are wielding tert functions that are rather unsophisticated in nature, poorly developed, poorly refined. Yet we wield them at each other like wooden clubs. We can use them abusively on each other.

    Be aware that you are requesting she speak to you like an Fe user. Even at the very best, this will be a shoddy facade. Be aware that to mimic the way an Fe user speaks may actually violate aspects of her Fi values-thus seem dishonest or unethical or nonauthetic, thus you may hit a barrier.

    Communication is a two way street-the burden of being understood lies on both sides. Since you are here, you automatically have a leg up on her in altering your own expectations to try and reinterrpret what she is saying-understanding it may grate terribly on your nerves, but also understanding the intent behind what she is saying doesnt match to what you are hearing. Accept that you will always be offended by some of these things she says-then learn to stop, step back, then try and reinterrpret in your head. This problem will never, ever go away. It will only get worse as you get more and more Fe.

    Things to tell her:

    1. Mom, I dont feel like you are listening to me. Send her a link about active listening. Ask her to refrain from a conclusion, and instead listen and question about specific details.
    2. Turn it into a faux Fi statement-Mom, I have my own thoughts, values and ideas about how I want to live my life. I appreciate hearing what you think, but I would really rather be alone with my feelings. I need to figure this out on my own. (Notice all of those "I"s) You might try responding in a very direct pointed Te manner-"I need you to X, Y, and Z")

    I will think upon this and see if I can come up with more stuff...so much of this is so autopilot innate. Fe users seem to have the ability to plan and mold words as you share them with others to meet the need of that particular person, but it is an on-the-fly planning. Like you have a few extra seconds between the idea in your head and the words that come out... I dont have that at all. However I do have this few seconds with regard to Te ideas...





    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    heh. that's exactly what i was thinking while reading this.
    Do Te doms and Auxs bug you as much as ENFPs? Mt ENTP says the others dont quite grate so much as the ENFP.

    I suspect there is something to be said for ENFPs stating something we analyzed with Fi as being Te factual. Te seeks correction via counter assertion. Ie, if I am wrong I VERY much want to be told so and hear what the other person's idea is. It isnt offensive at all and is actually intellectually invigorating.

    With Ti users, this all goes to shit. I suspect Ti may not follow Fi rationale, as it seems nonsensical. Then the ENFP asserts the Fi idea using Te and a Ti user might sometimes find the way it is asserted as both logically offensive and rude via Fe communication tactics. It doesnt mean the idea is worng or right-just that it is being lost in communication.

  3. #13
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Wow! This has got to be the post of the year for me. I think this is EXACTLY what is going on between me and some of the Fe/Ti users on this forum. Thank you Orobas. Thank you.
    Still collecting more data! This is so incomplete.

    Quote Originally Posted by tawanda View Post
    Wow, nice!

    I agree with the communication differences, and how it can cause us to disagree, but (this may also sound controlling, but I don't want it to be) how could I help her change how she communicates with me so there are less and less misinterpretations between us, so that she can say what she meant to say in the first place, and vice versa with me communicating with her?
    Back in your OP, you asked if the ENFPs had "too much Te to handle". There may be a bit of value to replace that with "Does an EXTP have too much Fe to handle?" In both cases, we are wielding tert functions that are rather unsophisticated in nature, poorly developed, poorly refined. Yet we wield them at each other like wooden clubs. We can use them abusively on each other.

    Be aware that you are requesting she speak to you like an Fe user. Even at the very best, this will be a shoddy facade. Be aware that to mimic the way an Fe user speaks may actually violate aspects of her Fi values-thus seem dishonest or unethical or nonauthetic, thus you may hit a barrier.

    Communication is a two way street-the burden of being understood lies on both sides. Since you are here, you automatically have a leg up on her in altering your own expectations to try and reinterrpret what she is saying-understanding it may grate terribly on your nerves, but also understanding the intent behind what she is saying doesnt match to what you are hearing. Accept that you will always be offended by some of these things she says-then learn to stop, step back, then try and reinterrpret in your head. This problem will never, ever go away. It will only get worse as you get more and more Fe.

    Things to tell her:

    1. Mom, I dont feel like you are listening to me. Send her a link about active listening. Ask her to refrain from a conclusion, and instead listen and question about specific details.
    2. Turn it into a faux Fi statement-Mom, I have my own thoughts, values and ideas about how I want to live my life. I appreciate hearing what you think, but I would really rather be alone with my feelings. I need to figure this out on my own. (Notice all of those "I"s) You might try responding in a very direct pointed Te manner-"I need you to X, Y, and Z")

    I will think upon this and see if I can come up with more stuff...so much of this is so autopilot innate. Fe users seem to have the ability to plan and mold words as you share them with others to meet the need of that particular person, but it is an on-the-fly planning. Like you have a few extra seconds between the idea in your head and the words that come out... I dont have that at all. However I do have this few seconds with regard to Te ideas...





    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    heh. that's exactly what i was thinking while reading this.
    Do Te doms and Auxs bug you as much as ENFPs? Mt ENTP says the others dont quite grate so much as the ENFP.

    I suspect there is something to be said for ENFPs stating something we analyzed with Fi as being Te factual. Te seeks correction via counter assertion. Ie, if I am wrong I VERY much want to be told so and hear what the other person's idea is. It isnt offensive at all and is actually intellectually invigorating.

    With Ti users, this all goes to shit. I suspect Ti may not follow Fi rationale, as it seems nonsensical. Then the ENFP asserts the Fi idea using Te and a Ti user might sometimes find the way it is asserted as both logically offensive and rude via Fe communication tactics. It doesnt mean the idea is worng or right-just that it is being lost in communication.

  4. #14
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    wow, i laughed at the title of this thread. me? controlling? usually, i hate the idea of people controlling one another. but... haha well.

    tawanda can you give some examples with your mom? maybe we can help interpret and address them.

    anyway, i had two main thoughts...

    1. Ti and Fi really don't like one another. i find the INTPs in my family ridiculously controlling about dumb things i don't care about (how i "ought" to play the video game, why the way i have the lights in the room is wrong, etc.), and they find me ridiculously controlling about dumb things (why they shouldn't play their music so loud when others are around, why they're being "mean", etc.) too. we each think we see what's "really" important and it seems like the other person is completely blind to it, and we feel like we ought to be instructing them in it. so then, for instance, if the Ti type tries to instruct the ENFP in Ti via Fe, it totally backfires, because the ENFP instead thinks what's important is Fi and communicates that via Te. or vice versa. it's like total system failure. and the other side always ends up coming off as pedantic, regardless of which side of it you're on, because it seems like they don't get it but obviously they think they do...

    2. like others have pointed out, when i'm either REALLY stressed out or i feel like someone has flown far beyond the boundaries of what is acceptable, i will become pretty controlling. it's entirely Te. i had to explain to my brother (INTP) at one point, when he was freaked out about me yelling at him, was that the whole point of me "blowing up" was to get him out of my face. it's entirely defensive, never an attack. so it doesn't really feel like control to me, you know? because the intention is not to direct; it's to protect. it's not preemptive, so i don't feel like i'm infringing, or like it's uncalled for. what it does feel like to me, is my right to protect myself, or someone else, when someone has done something that is infringing upon me or them in a harmful way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Be aware that you are requesting she speak to you like an Fe user. Even at the very best, this will be a shoddy facade. Be aware that to mimic the way an Fe user speaks may actually violate aspects of her Fi values-thus seem dishonest or unethical or nonauthetic, thus you may hit a barrier. [...] Accept that you will always be offended by some of these things she says-then learn to stop, step back, then try and reinterrpret in your head. This problem will never, ever go away. It will only get worse as you get more and more Fe.
    actually, i dunno, i think it will get better as an ExTP's Fe is refined and an ENFP's Te is refined. i totally agree about just coming at it from an angle of being ready to be offended, though. that's how i often have to communicate with the INTPs in my family. we have a lot of misunderstandings, though it's been better since i've learned some strategies thanks to typology.

    [...] Fe users seem to have the ability to plan and mold words as you share them with others to meet the need of that particular person, but it is an on-the-fly planning. Like you have a few extra seconds between the idea in your head and the words that come out... I dont have that at all. However I do have this few seconds with regard to Te ideas...[/quote]

    ^ yeah, and it's kinda frustrating. the Fe/Ti user expects you to get it logically right and cordial the first time you speak and you don't, and then they get pissed. and you're like JUST WAIT A SECOND WHILE I FIGURE OUT WHAT I MEAN. :sad:

  5. #15
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawanda View Post
    Are ENFPs even known to be controlling?

    My mother is an ENFP, and I have heard so many times that she is one of the most controlling people they have ever met...some people mistake her for being mean because of it. I've met only one other ENFP who is also somewhat like this.

    I almost doubt that they're ENFPs, they seem like they have way more Te than they need/can handle.

    So, to ENFPs, do you find yourself to be overly controlling at times, or not at all?
    No.

    but I'm sure that in the right circumstances an ENFP would be controlling, as would be an ENFJ, ENTP, ENTJ, INTP, INTJ, ESFP, ESTJ, ESFJ, INFJ, INFP, ISFP,...

    "OMG I FEEEEEEEEEL SO INTENSELY ABOUT EVERYTHING OMG OMG OMG GET ME A XANAX" -Priam (ENFP impersonation)

  6. #16
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    firstly, i think it's important that i emphasize that it's not only the action of stating something that way, but it would have to be done in a way that it would drive me nuts. for instance, saying something as if it's factual but then sticking to it no matter what proves it otherwise, and/or refusing to answer when asked for proof to back it up. and, instead, attempting to distract with something else, just repeating it again as if that will make it true, etc.

    also, i don't see something like that controlling unless used in that context. meaning, just saying 1 + 1 = 2 won't send me over, but saying, "blondes always cheat" without giving me any idea where that came from, would irritate the shit out of me. but, only if i couldn't get away from them, say, if they lived with me, or something, and i had to hear their crap all of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Do Te doms and Auxs bug you as much as ENFPs? Mt ENTP says the others dont quite grate so much as the ENFP.
    what i mentioned above would bother me no matter the type, but my guess would be that it could be the fact that a NF usually uses a different form of communication than a NT, and so that coupled with the above that i mentioned, could probably add up to that conclusion for your friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I suspect there is something to be said for ENFPs stating something we analyzed with Fi as being Te factual. Te seeks correction via counter assertion. Ie, if I am wrong I VERY much want to be told so and hear what the other person's idea is. It isnt offensive at all and is actually intellectually invigorating.
    i speak as someone who has only knowingly known ENFPs online. but, from what i've noticed, they'd be harder to ignore than other types who do this. and, ignoring is a big NT defense mechanism. if we can't use it, then frustration sets in quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    With Ti users, this all goes to shit. I suspect Ti may not follow Fi rationale, as it seems nonsensical. Then the ENFP asserts the Fi idea using Te and a Ti user might sometimes find the way it is asserted as both logically offensive and rude via Fe communication tactics. It doesnt mean the idea is worng or right-just that it is being lost in communication.
    you're right, it doesn't, but again, things can be ignored unless someone's Fi won't allow it to be ignored. regarding rudeness, it would take a lot of rude to get to me. more probable that it would annoy the crap out of me if the person were stating the "fact" to someone else who would believe it without question.

    that would cause me to be unable to ignore.

    feeling controlled by an ENFP though? no, unless maybe it was a romantic relationship. i'd be put in a position of being unable to defend myself against their "facts", and that would cause big blow-ups and probably a quick break-up.

    that said, i can easily see how others could feel that way if the contexts happened to be as i've stated.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    was that the whole point of me "blowing up" was to get him out of my face. it's entirely defensive, never an attack. so it doesn't really feel like control to me, you know? because the intention is not to direct; it's to protect. it's not preemptive, so i don't feel like i'm infringing, or like it's uncalled for. what it does feel like to me, is my right to protect myself, or someone else, when someone has done something that is infringing upon me or them in a harmful wa
    Lol, no offense, but I just had to comment on this, because a thought immediately crossed my mind when reading it : ENFPs will never accept responsibility for anything!!!! They will use all their BS to twist something they shouldn't have done into the mandatory reaction to something lol.


    We really have big egos. The weird part is that we don't even realize or admit it most of the time.

  8. #18
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    With respect to control....after thinking a bit, i realized I have no problem at all delegating and managing the actions of others in a leadership or group situation. In a vacuum I naturally step up and start direction the ACTIONS of others. What I utterly abhor is controlling their emotions, feelings, and values. If I asked them to perform an action and it violated a value-I would stop discuss the situation and reframe or change plans so that it didnt make them uncomfortable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moiety View Post
    Lol, no offense, but I just had to comment on this, because a thought immediately crossed my mind when reading it : ENFPs will never accept responsibility for anything!!!! They will use all their BS to twist something they shouldn't have done into the mandatory reaction to something lol.


    We really have big egos. The weird part is that we don't even realize or admit it most of the time.
    Be cautious here.

    Tert Te in EXFPs can be used to rationalize our own behavior-and justify our sometimes irrational Fi. I actually see this more in ESFPs, but yeah, we can totally do this.

    Or-as skylights is doing-we will use Te after the fact to dissect a situation, step by step, out loud. As we do so, it allows for contingency planning and recognition of the pattern of interactions so that we can understand what went wrong and how not to repeat again in the future.

    This is not rationalization of why a behavior is okay, or making excuses...it is learning.

    I actually tend to find that ENFPs are for too willing to accept blame, are far too willing to endlessly self question, and we tend to be very willing to admit we are the fucked up ones in a situation, and that we need to grow and change. There seems to be an almost masochistic desire for self growth and improvement.

  9. #19
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    firstly, i think it's important that i emphasize that it's not only the action of stating something that way, but it would have to be done in a way that it would drive me nuts. for instance, saying something as if it's factual but then sticking to it no matter what proves it otherwise, and/or refusing to answer when asked for proof to back it up. and, instead, attempting to distract with something else, just repeating it again as if that will make it true, etc.

    also, i don't see something like that controlling unless used in that context. meaning, just saying 1 + 1 = 2 won't send me over, but saying, "blondes always cheat" without giving me any idea where that came from, would irritate the shit out of me. but, only if i couldn't get away from them, say, if they lived with me, or something, and i had to hear their crap all of the time.
    Distance makes the heart grow fonder, for sure.

    So 1+1 = 2 is a Ti rule. Lets replace your other example with a rather odd, quite preliminary pattern I have observed: "ENTPs hate sticky surfaces". Note how absolute that sounds?

    I would tend to state it factually-but in my head I recognize it is a generality, much like an MBTI description, thus I fully expect individuals will break the molds of the generalized pattern ... Thus really it should be stated as "Many of the ENTPs I have observed seem to really be bothered by sticky surfaces."

    However the absoluteness of the first statement doesnt induce cognitive dissonance for me at all. I am perfectly content to build generalized patterns of human behavior, state them as such but have individuals not fit those patterns. Fi supplies a check and balance against Te. If I get enough people who break the pattern it gets discarded as not being a true generality anymore. I suspect this Human resource generalist approach is kinda what ENFPs are designed to do-but it is highly offensive to the Ti approach that an NTP or INFJ would take to any sort of data.

    If asked how I reached the conclusion, I could describe data sources but it would never, ever meet the Ti/Te requirement for data validity. This may be when you see the ENFPs just give up and find something else to talk about.

    As you mention above-we can VERY tightly attach a value to the idea-if this happens, then yes, I have seen ENFPs discard logic and data and just keep insisting they are correct. The ENFPs have to unlearn this by detaching the idea from the value....this can be hard at times and is hideously annoying.

    The repeating of the idea is likely an attempt as Te-Te assertion-we want you to show us your idea and explain how ours is wrong perhaps....?? or we just cant understand the Ti perhaps...but yeah, I have seen this as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    what i mentioned above would bother me no matter the type, but my guess would be that it could be the fact that a NF usually uses a different form of communication than a NT, and so that coupled with the above that i mentioned, could probably add up to that conclusion for your friend.

    i speak as someone who has only knowingly known ENFPs online. but, from what i've noticed, they'd be harder to ignore than other types who do this. and, ignoring is a big NT defense mechanism. if we can't use it, then frustration sets in quickly.
    That is a really great point-ignoring. I could see this going badly is the enfp is trying to externally Te the problem, when the NTP wants instead to step away...the enfp just keeps following.

    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    more probable that it would annoy the crap out of me if the person were stating the "fact" to someone else who would believe it without question.
    This is a REALLY interesting point. For me, if I present an idea, I always assume the other person will be capable of thinking through and evaluating it. Thus I would never not share an idea, even a total bullshit one. There is no danger or worry in my mind that an incorrect idea might take root. If it sucks, the idea will be dismantled and rebuilt, discarded, or might serve as a tidbit to give fruition to someone else's idea.

    However I have ran into a few of INTPs and INFJs over the last few months who do exhibit concern. Simply by sharing the idea, it seems they cant assume the other person is actually able to think independently thus there is a sense of worry. Almost like the idea is a pathogen, and once released people will just believe it because it was spoken? I am seeing shades of this in your above quote as well.

    I dont fully grasp this though...

    Thanks for your observations digest, they are really quite awesome. These are areas where I think ENFPs can self-modify, but we have to understand what is off kilter first-thus external observations are appreciated.

  10. #20
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    you're quite welcome.

    it is good to know that in an ENFPs mind (at least yours... see how i clarified that? :p), they're thinking in less absolutes than is actually being stated. it makes it easier to relax when speaking to one IF you know this. the problem is that if you don't, then all you have to go on is the statement, so it sounds as if the ENFP totally believes what they're saying is the absolute truth.

    for instance, when first reading this, i thought you really meant that 'ENTP hates sticky surfaces' statement, and had come to my own conclusion before i'd even reached the next sentence. conclusion: god, i really do hate them.

    point being though that i felt the need to argue it in my mind and check that 'fact' out with myself immediately.

    whereas, i, am always aware that the other person is going to believe what comes out of my mouth as being true to me. which is why i even use that as a way to convince others of things or for some other reason.

    i've panicked many times when hearing a parent tell a child something that i know isn't true. i've even panicked when hearing a child ask someone a question because i'm waiting for them to either be wrong OR not explain it in a way that the child will understand. meaning, they'll simply state the answer with no follow up or clarification.

    when i speak, i try to expand on something if i think there's a chance the other may need it. BUT, i do just state bullshit theories on occasion just because, to me, they're the truest explanation handy. until, as you've said, more info comes in to change it. however, i'm always aware of what i'm doing and even COUNT on the other person believing i believe what i'm saying without doubting me.

    needless to say, i mean i do this for a variety of reasons depending on context, but the fact remains the same.

    experiment:

    how would you feel/what would you think if you and some friends were watching a documentary about dinosaurs and you heard the narrator say, "this is the first mammal to have existed."?
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