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  1. #61
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    I don't believe that you are viewing the connection or the understanding as an object unto itself. You insist that there must be some other objective, if I'm not mistaken. Relationship is the entire objective.

    I think it is a mistake to completely discount the validation of others. While being completely reliant upon external validation is a mistake - and in fact, a personality disorder - the balance of one's own values and self-opinion combined with the perspectives and validations of others helps us to learn more about the human experience both for ourselves and for others. My life isn't fulfilling if I cannot maintain some sort of social perspective and connection to others.

    If you need an objective to why this would be necessary, take into account jobs like psychologist, pastor, hospice care worker, parenting, early childhood worker, adolescent guidance counselor, addictions counselor, death row counselor, corrections officer, writer, artist, musician, and any other occupation that a person could acquire in which making deep connections, providing understanding, and comprehending the emotional complexity of the human experience is paramount. You could probably even include "forum moderator" into that mix, not to mention simple, basic things like friend and lover.

  2. #62
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    Sometimes...I usually don't care when I open up, but if I truly open up to people, then I sort of panic inside, regardless of their response to me opening up. I feel like they see me as an entirely different person.

    I have only truly opened up to about 3 people in real life, probably more online.

  3. #63
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    My original challenge was to Malkavia's question, where it was to challenge the NEED for validation, not from your personalised perspective of why you regret opening up to people. If anything, it had nothing to do with your personalised perspective.

    Generally speaking, everyone's emotions are valid, where they have a right to them. But to rely on someone else to make us more or equal to ourselves, is too much power to give another who has his/her own challenges and self to consider.

    It's when we have expectations of others, that we get disappointed. But are those expectations reasonable from their perspective since they too, are separate individuals?

    Once again, throwing out more thoughts for consideration.
    I don't think someone has to have a right to their emotions. I think emotions just are. Like the leaves in spring are green and ripe strawberries are red.

    I guess it comes down to your having a theory and my having an ideal. In my ideal, relationships are symbiotic and reciprocal and in your theory, we don't need them to feel complete or whatever. It's apples and oranges and neither really reflect reality, so meh.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #64
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't think someone has to have a right to their emotions. I think emotions just are. Like the leaves in spring are green and ripe strawberries are red.

    I guess it comes down to your having a theory and my having an ideal. In my ideal, relationships are symbiotic and reciprocal and in your theory, we don't need them to feel complete or whatever. It's apples and oranges and neither really reflect reality, so meh.
    Where does one begin and end in your ideal for a relationship?

  5. #65
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Thanks, this provides me with more fuel for thought. I do understand that in order to get a deeper connection, there has to be a better understanding of the individual as a whole which includes trying or managing to understand their point of view. It can provide you with a larger picture perspective, in a complementary way of richness of tapestry.

    You and Satine are expressing similar concepts of depth of connection from different perspectives. Where Satine is more about depth of connection, your opinion appears to be based on the complementary nature of the interpersonal dynamic and how the other person can benefit you.

    But in both, what someone thinks of you, neither minimalises or maximises who you inherently are, unless you allow their opinions to cause change within you.

    Don't get me wrong. It is nice to be validated.

    But where I hair-split, is where validation is necessary to be who you are. External view leans towards bias, since people view others and their actions through biased lenses of their own lives, experiences or perspectives; or the individual themselves hold back a part of themselves whether deliberately for many different reasons or simply because the observer is unable to grasp or is even interested in that side of them.

    Anyways, hopefully we've provided each other with differing views.
    I agree to a certain extent with you, yes. You are right on that. But when you're naturally inclined towards that harmony, it's easy to get lost in whose feelings you are in fact...well 'feeling'. You become so in tune with what others think, that you easily get biased as to your own feelings and as to how you view yourself. Moods and emotions are contagious. And while that's a good thing when promoting harmony and feeling good and happy and stuff...it can also contaminate you when someone feels sad or angry and projects that on you. You yourself either become sad or angry yourself and mirror it back at them, causing a chain reaction, or you start getting defensive, thinking that that person is aiming that purposefully at you. It takes al evel of self-awareness and mastery to realize what's going on and detach from it. It also makes you sensitive to taking on their views of yourself, as it works in that same contagious way. It's the risk you run when you open up to others, especially if that self-awareness is lacking. And even when that self-awareness is there, and you are able to step back..it is nice to see that the way you strive to project yourself towards others, the way you strive to be the best you are, being affirmed and having that content feeling from others mirrorred back at you, knowing that you caused that contentment in them. Knowing that who you are, is in fact greatly appreciated by them. It's a kick, a rush, and gives purpose, as well as reinforces that harmony. The same happens however when you have the opposite happening. When they feel bad around you, and you've verified that it is in fact you that causes this...it's in your power to change this..to recreate that harmony. Why wouldn't you do so? It's in the best interest of your bond with this person afterall (this depends on how important this person is to you). The validation/feedback has just helped you to givey ou the information you need to strenghten that bond and become a better person in order to fulfill the purpose that you strive to achieve (promote that group harmony or grow in that bond with that particular individual).
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I agree to a certain extent with you, yes. You are right on that. But when you're naturally inclined towards that harmony, it's easy to get lost in whose feelings you are in fact...well 'feeling'. You become so in tune with what others think, that you easily get biased as to your own feelings and as to how you view yourself. Moods and emotions are contagious. And while that's a good thing when promoting harmony and feeling good and happy and stuff...it can also contaminate you when someone feels sad or angry and projects that on you. You yourself either become sad or angry yourself and mirror it back at them, causing a chain reaction, or you start getting defensive, thinking that that person is aiming that purposefully at you. It takes al evel of self-awareness and mastery to realize what's going on and detach from it. It also makes you sensitive to taking on their views of yourself, as it works in that same contagious way. It's the risk you run when you open up to others, especially if that self-awareness is lacking. And even when that self-awareness is there, and you are able to step back..it is nice to see that the way you strive to project yourself towards others, the way you strive to be the best you are, being affirmed and having that content feeling from others mirrorred back at you, knowing that you caused that contentment in them. Knowing that who you are, is in fact greatly appreciated by them. It's a kick, a rush, and gives purpose, as well as reinforces that harmony. The same happens however when you have the opposite happening. When they feel bad around you, and you've verified that it is in fact you that causes this...it's in your power to change this..to recreate that harmony. Why wouldn't you do so? It's in the best interest of your bond with this person afterall (this depends on how important this person is to you). The validation/feedback has just helped you to givey ou the information you need to strenghten that bond and become a better person in order to fulfill the purpose that you strive to achieve (promote that group harmony or grow in that bond with that particular individual).
    When explained this way, I get it and can relate to it somewhat but not completely, since it's not my natural preference.

    As previously stated, you rock Satine! Somehow you can explain feeler cognition to me so it makes sense.

  7. #67
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Hold it, hold it, hold it. Got it 100% if it can be viewed as such. That a mutually respectful conversation, is a form of mutual validation.

  8. #68
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Correct
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unkindloving View Post

    NFPs tend to see past a lot of the vague dips into insecurities. They may need some guidance toward the juicy center of them, but they get their foot in that elevator door before it closes out the rest of the world.
    Questioning out of pure curiosity is a weakness, methinks. Something that will make an ENFJ starry-eyed and more likely to share, but you're right about the security bit. You need to have proper authorization and your fingerprint/eyescan has to pass before you can go to a different level . I personally find someone misinterpreting me to spark a subconscious need to explain more of myself to them.
    @ bold - agreed. the more someone keeps something secret, the more i want to know it (because hyper security means it's really important to them), but it's bad news if you get trusted with information that you're not sufficiently mentally prepared to handle with care, so to speak. actually that's part of what makes ENFJs so interesting. introverts are quiet, so it's not really surprising if they hold back info, but even sometimes introverts will open up to me in ways that make me be like and then ENFJs are often very social and yet they have this tangible wall! but yes, it's so important to care about the person, not just want to know their secrets for the sake of it.

    ENFPs and ENFJs keeping each other in check. D'aw!
    I've not witnessed or been involved in a tussle with an ENFP and it makes me curious. Most of mine have been with INFPs, which is like a different ball game on the same playing field.
    haha probably. it's very strange. as i've experienced it, it's like Fe/Ni wall of protection versus Ne/Fi outpouring. essentially i think the Ne/Fi has to STFU and the Fe/Ni has to be willing to drop their guard a bit - which, of course, is exactly what both of us don't want to do when we feel threatened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trentham View Post
    I think the problem a lot of people have with validating others is that they are unwilling to simply listen objectively and attempt to empathize, instead impulsively judging the other person's perceived faults based on their own biases. This is often done out of a desire to help the other person, but sometimes the other person doesn't want or need "help" or a quick solution to the problem. They just want someone to listen and attempt to understand their point of view.

    Doesn't sound all that difficult. But in practice, it's exceedingly rare.
    very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    My original challenge was to Malkavia's question, where it was to challenge the NEED for validation, not from your personalised perspective of why you regret opening up to people. If anything, it had nothing to do with your personalised perspective.

    Generally speaking, everyone's emotions are valid, where they have a right to them. But to rely on someone else to make us more or equal to ourselves, is too much power to give another who has his/her own challenges and self to consider.

    It's when we have expectations of others, that we get disappointed. But are those expectations reasonable from their perspective since they too, are separate individuals?
    i agree with the bold.

    i open up for the sake of helping/connecting with someone else, usually. if i don't get any positive response from them, then it feels like i revisited a potentially hurting part of myself for nothing, and let another person see a side of me that isn't so flattering. for it's not even about giving the other person power as much as it about disappointment and frustration and embarrassment that i gave what i could and they didn't give back. on the bright side, the times that this happens are much, much fewer in comparison to the times where both of us connect and benefit from the sharing, so i'm generally willing to take the risk.

    i also like what satine said about contamination. it's true. when you're so in tune with emotions, it's hard to read emotion and remove yourself from emotion at the same time. it also can be hard to see where someone else's feelings end and yours begin, when you're sympathizing or empathizing with someone. it doesn't just work one-directionally - if you're strong enough, you can infuse the other person with positivity too. that's hard though, because you don't want to deny someone the time they might need to spend figuring things out and you don't want to piss them off by trying to "pretend everything is okay" either. not that it's always so conscious, but especially with other Fs i feel like there's a certain art to emotional flow in relationships. if you get it right, you can comfort, calm, and inspire one another.

  10. #70
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Where does one begin and end in your ideal for a relationship?
    In the middle.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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