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  1. #51
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Metaphor, you can be, sure, but to share that with others can make you feel safe, appreciated..not so alone in this world. NFs build bonds with other living creatures, it's what they're intent on doing. And it leads to great friendships, awesome relationships, tighnit communities. So it does have a purpose. But in order to be that in tune with one another, one has to open up, and in order to build the harmony that is essential to those bonds, to sustain them, to keep people from drifting apart, you need to be in tune with how other people, in that bond view things, in order to keep a synthesis of what is between the two (or more) of you. Otherwise that bond withers. That however also translates in a need to be validated, often because it is hard to detach from who you are and view yourself objectively. It helps you reassess whether you're doing everything you can to promote that harmony, and enriches your pov on the bond, the situation, yourself, for that matter. It helps you see other perspectives, and as such, new ways of experiencing life, experiencing other people...which in turn, creates once more a more in depth bond, providing more harmony and security
    Thanks, this provides me with more fuel for thought. I do understand that in order to get a deeper connection, there has to be a better understanding of the individual as a whole which includes trying or managing to understand their point of view. It can provide you with a larger picture perspective, in a complementary way of richness of tapestry.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    That's pretty irrelevant to how one actually feels. And no, I don't think you are just as alone with someone who is willing and able to validate you than you are without them. When someone validates you, they are joining with you, consciously and sharing the burden of the pain of life. When, instead, they show that they will not or cannot share in that burden with you then you are left worse off than if you hadn't tried to share it. At least if you don't you can keep the delusion that they might have if you'd asked them to.

    We are a social species whether we like it or not.
    You and Satine are expressing similar concepts of depth of connection from different perspectives. Where Satine is more about depth of connection, your opinion appears to be based on the complementary nature of the interpersonal dynamic and how the other person can benefit you.

    But in both, what someone thinks of you, neither minimalises or maximises who you inherently are, unless you allow their opinions to cause change within you.

    Don't get me wrong. It is nice to be validated.

    But where I hair-split, is where validation is necessary to be who you are. External view leans towards bias, since people view others and their actions through biased lenses of their own lives, experiences or perspectives; or the individual themselves hold back a part of themselves whether deliberately for many different reasons or simply because the observer is unable to grasp or is even interested in that side of them.

    Anyways, hopefully we've provided each other with differing views.

  2. #52
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    You and Satine are expressing similar concepts of depth of connection from different perspectives. Where Satine is more about depth of connection, your opinion appears to be based on the complementary nature of the interpersonal dynamic and how the other person can benefit you.

    But in both, what someone thinks of you, neither minimalises or maximises who you inherently are, unless you allow their opinions to cause change within you.

    Don't get me wrong. It is nice to be validated.

    But where I hair-split, is where validation is necessary to be who you are. External view leans towards bias, since people view others and their actions through biased lenses of their own lives, experiences or perspectives; or the individual themselves hold back a part of themselves whether deliberately for many different reasons or simply because the observer is unable to grasp or is even interested in that side of them.

    Anyways, hopefully we've provided each other with differing views.
    I don't see how that is relevant to how one feels about something, TBH.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #53
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't see how that is relevant to how one feels about something, TBH.
    Don't you ever try to balance out how you feel with what you think? Do emotions always stand alone for you? Do you feel something then if it makes you angry, strike out? Or do you ask yourself why you're angry and then find a way to bleed away the anger, if the reasons are irrational or not worth the effort of reaction?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Don't you ever try to balance out how you feel with what you think? Do emotions always stand alone for you? Do you feel something then if it makes you angry, strike out? Or do you ask yourself why you're angry and then find a way to bleed away the anger, if the reasons are irrational or not worth the effort of reaction?
    It's extremely important to some people to feel understood and validated by other people. Not all of these people are NF...some are surely SF, others might even be Ts.

    It doesn't mean they aren't capable of using their thinking function. You're confusing F with "emotionally reactive." This is inaccurate.

    If we were to go by function theory (which I reject) ENTJ probably would be a good fit for you, seeing as that it places Fi in the inferior and it can make it very difficult for younger or less mature ExTJs to relate to Fs.

  5. #55
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Just chill marm. I'm not going to validate and accept without at least trying to understand the issue. And no amount of your attempted emotional manipulation will change this.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Trentham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkavia View Post
    When you are in a close relationship with someone (platonic or romantic) and you show a piece of yourself, you want them to be able to accept it. It isn't a need, but it is an intense desire. I think it comes from the want to be able to show the ridiculous hot mess that I am and someone say, "thats ok, I still think you're awesome."
    I agree with the crux of what you're saying here. I think the problem a lot of people have with validating others is that they are unwilling to simply listen objectively and attempt to empathize, instead impulsively judging the other person's perceived faults based on their own biases. This is often done out of a desire to help the other person, but sometimes the other person doesn't want or need "help" or a quick solution to the problem. They just want someone to listen and attempt to understand their point of view.

    Doesn't sound all that difficult. But in practice, it's exceedingly rare.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Don't you ever try to balance out how you feel with what you think? Do emotions always stand alone for you? Do you feel something then if it makes you angry, strike out? Or do you ask yourself why you're angry and then find a way to bleed away the anger, if the reasons are irrational or not worth the effort of reaction?
    Emotions stand on their own merit as data, not all the data, but in this case they are primarily the relevant data. The question is do I regret opening up to people. My answer is 'yes, I usually do.' My feelings are relevant here because regret is a feeling. The reason *I* open up to others is in order to receive a feeling of validation. If it does not happen, then my desired goal was not accomplished. For me, it is not even neutral, it is a net loss, because I feel worse than I felt before I opened up. So, because I don't simply act upon my feelings, but analyze them, I have come to the conclusion that opening up to others is not a good strategy for me most of the time.

    I know my feelings are valid. I want a companion in my joy and in my sorrow and I am willing to be that to others. Someone sharing my sorrow makes it feel not so big and someone sharing my joy makes it seem bigger.

    So I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Are you saying that I shouldn't need validation because I should simply intellectualize my feelings and relegate them to a place of irrelevance, or that I should continue to open up to people whether it's working for me or not, or am I missing your point entirely?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Just chill marm. I'm not going to validate and accept without at least trying to understand the issue. And no amount of your attempted emotional manipulation will change this.
    I am chill, and I'm not sure what you mean by "emotional manipulation" I'm just trying to explain something to you that you aren't getting.

    You won't accept that connecting to others and feeling understood is at the core of some people's being, portraying it as though it were a weakness or a fault. While this might not be your preferred way of living, it is a trait of other personality types, and it contributes to the strengths and skills that we have.

    That's what MBTI is really all about - not just understanding ourselves, but also trying to grasp that other people are different from you and that there isn't one right answer for THE WAY TO BE.

  9. #59

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    I regret... sometimes too much. I feel like I said things that I couldn't, and that the person can use the things against me, or misunderstand what I said... It can be really discomfortable.

  10. #60
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Emotions stand on their own merit as data, not all the data, but in this case they are primarily the relevant data. The question is do I regret opening up to people. My answer is 'yes, I usually do.' My feelings are relevant here because regret is a feeling. The reason *I* open up to others is in order to receive a feeling of validation. If it does not happen, then my desired goal was not accomplished. For me, it is not even neutral, it is a net loss, because I feel worse than I felt before I opened up. So, because I don't simply act upon my feelings, but analyze them, I have come to the conclusion that opening up to others is not a good strategy for me most of the time.

    I know my feelings are valid. I want a companion in my joy and in my sorrow and I am willing to be that to others. Someone sharing my sorrow makes it feel not so big and someone sharing my joy makes it seem bigger.

    So I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Are yous aying that I shouldn't need validation because I should simply intellectualize my feelings and relegate them to a place of irrelevance, or that I should continue to open up to people whether it's working for me or not, or am I missing your point entirely?
    My original challenge was to Malkavia's question, where it was to challenge the NEED for validation, not from your personalised perspective of why you regret opening up to people. If anything, it had nothing to do with your personalised perspective.

    Generally speaking, everyone's emotions are valid, where they have a right to them. But to rely on someone else to make us more or equal to ourselves, is too much power to give another who has his/her own challenges and self to consider.

    It's when we have expectations of others, that we get disappointed. But are those expectations reasonable from their perspective since they too, are separate individuals?

    Once again, throwing out more thoughts for consideration.

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