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  1. #11
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I agree to stop devaluing her feelings and perspective & incorporate a little organization into your life to appease her. Then, she should stop devaluing YOUR feelings & perspective (which, from your post, seems is happening also), and not be so uptight about drawers being left open (dear god, no! :gasp: :rolli. If she doesn't, then it's time to talk. Actually, you should talk anyway, particularly regarding the money, so you can find mutually agreed upon solutions. But yeah, compromise will be needed, and you may need to be the one to initiate it. However, don't be so accommodating that you allow your own needs to be trampled; this is really important for an INFP to remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix
    I'm not quite sure what to make of this....when people say they worry about existential things it comes off as pretentious to me and I just do an internal eye roll.

    That's the irreconcilable part to me...to think about some abstract concept but when the manifestation of that concept bops you on the head you just keep scratching your chin and let it pass by you.
    This is because you don't understand the Fi mindset, and so you invalidate it. Funny, how Jung's description of Fi-doms mentions how Fe people & extroverts tend do that....

    :internal eye roll:
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #12
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    When you said what you worry about I thought to myself, why bother concerning yourself with that?...That's the irreconcilable part to me...to think about some abstract concept but when the manifestation of that concept bops you on the head you just keep scratching your chin and let it pass by you. That may be your opportunity to see if justice exists and get an answer to your question, unless the point is not ever have an answer and chase your own mind tails.

    The point of all this is to say why is what she thinks about so trivial and banal yet what you think about so esoteric and profound? That's why I thought your OP was dismissive...it sounds like you're tuning her out a lot and missing some critical information as to why she is the way she is.
    This is a very useful perspective to hear. I can see why ENFJs think that way; the thinking is pragmatic and useful to people in a way which yields tangible, visible results. I reckon that your thinking is exactly the same as hers, in fact.

    However, to me, existential problems represent the "true" problems. This may seem pretentious, and maybe it is to an extent, but it seems inevitable to me that that be the case. Other problems seem trivial to me only because they also appear bound up with the machinations of a life/society which so frequently neglects the construction/implementation of ideologies which would benefit us all. Therefore, figuring out the meaning of abstract concepts feels very significant to me because if, for example, I don't care about how or why I am making money, the money I earn seems worthless, not in an extant sense but in a moralistic or ideological sense. I think this is what makes INFPs seem aloof and snobby. I'd rather be a starving artist holding on to my (perhaps fanciful) notions of truth/beauty etc. than get a job that pays more regularly. My girlfriend cannot understand this and I can't explain it to her because, while she is idealistic, she doesn't see any of this as a problem - she just wants me to "get on with it". The problem is that I am getting on with it, but in a very internal way.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    [S]he should stop devaluing YOUR feelings & perspective (which, from your post, seems is happening also), and not be so uptight about drawers being left open
    I was hopeful that this also came across in my post and I'm glad you noticed it! I think there is a tendancy for people to look on me as being unnessecarily antagonistic but, as you say, I feel a bit persecuted for things which don't seem important to me (but which are important to her, it seems).

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    This is because [ENFJs] don't understand the Fi mindset, and so...invalidate it. Funny, how Jung's description of Fi-doms mentions how Fe people & extroverts tend do that....

    :internal eye roll:
    I must admit I did laugh at this!

    Invalidate is such an excellent word to use in this context. When such "invalidation" occurs, I tend to get very quiet (because I'm a bit hurt by it). If she has done something like that, I just stop talking and tell her I need to be alone for a bit. This is unbearable for her. She will immediately try to make reparations but I can't ger over things that quickly. I won't hold it against her, but it might take me an hour or two of folding clothes or cleaning (which is what I do when I want to reflect but still be "useful") before I can talk to her properly again.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    A Fe and a Fi Dom ... o...my...god. I agree with the advice given. If you love her, understand Fe, tolerate Fe, help Fe. And if she loves you, she needs to understand your Fi, tolerate it, and help it.

    Good luck.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    Honestly, if one of you doesn't worry about having enough money for the rent, then you won't have a place to live. So go ahead and contemplate the laws of the universe, but you can thank her for her worrying if you have a roof over your head every month.

    Have you ever heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Your concerns about life and meaning will come crashing down quickly if you don't have food to eat or a home to live in.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    Honestly, if one of you doesn't worry about having enough money for the rent, then you won't have a place to live. So go ahead and contemplate the laws of the universe, but you can thank her for her worrying if you have a roof over your head every month.

    Have you ever heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Your concerns about life and meaning will come crashing down quickly if you don't have food to eat or a home to live in.
    A bit hostile methinks.

    It's all well and good accepting that rent has to be paid - indeed, I work so that I pay the rent - but the tangibility or relative immediacy of this requirement doesn't necessarily invalidate "metaphysical" considerations.

    I think the problems revoles around the misconstrual, or misuse, of the term "worry". I'm aware that I need the money to pay the rent and I ensure I have enough to make that possible; however, it is not at the top of my list of concerns. You're right to say that if I were starving I wouldn't dwell on subjects which are bit outre but that's true of any other person of any other type; food constitutes a "basic need", if we are referring to Maslow. The rent, however, would only be worrisome if the deadline were approaching and I was certain that I would have difficulty paying; I would not, for example, worry about having enough rent for a deadline 6 months away.

    However, I'm still not really sure what you're getting at. I'm very happy that my girlfriend enjoys planning in this regard. In fact, it's very helpful for the both of us. The problem only arises when she fails to accept that I don't "perform my concerns" in the same way she does. It appears that she considers me "wrong" for not actively (i.e. in a physical, perceptible sense) displaying my concerns. This is possibly a result of the Fe/Fi conflict that Rebe mentioned.

    Also, just as a point, I'd like to say that I'm a bit concerned about the pointedness of some people's remarks, here and elsewhere. I don't come here to dismiss anyone else or to "state the INFP's case": I come to ask questions and get advice so as to gain further insight. I'd appreciate it if people could be polite and non-accusatory. If you can't do that then don't reply. That being said, some people's posts have been eye-opening and I'd like to thank them for that.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    A bit hostile methinks.

    It's all well and good accepting that rent has to be paid - indeed, I work so that I pay the rent - but the tangibility or relative immediacy of this requirement doesn't necessarily invalidate "metaphysical" considerations.

    I think the problems revoles around the misconstrual, or misuse, of the term "worry". I'm aware that I need the money to pay the rent and I ensure I have enough to make that possible; however, it is not at the top of my list of concerns. You're right to say that if I were starving I wouldn't dwell on subjects which are bit outre but that's true of any other person of any other type; food constitutes a "basic need", if we are referring to Maslow. The rent, however, would only be worrisome if the deadline were approaching and I was certain that I would have difficulty paying; I would not, for example, worry about having enough rent for a deadline 6 months away.

    However, I'm still not really sure what you're getting at. I'm very happy that my girlfriend enjoys planning in this regard. In fact, it's very helpful for the both of us. The problem only arises when she fails to accept that I don't "perform my concerns" in the same way she does. It appears that she considers me "wrong" for not actively (i.e. in a physical, perceptible sense) displaying my concerns. This is possibly a result of the Fe/Fi conflict that Rebe mentioned.

    Also, just as a point, I'd like to say that I'm a bit concerned about the pointedness of some people's remarks, here and elsewhere. I don't come here to dismiss anyone else or to "state the INFP's case": I come to ask questions and get advice so as to gain further insight. I'd appreciate it if people could be polite and non-accusatory. If you can't do that then don't reply. That being said, some people's posts have been eye-opening and I'd like to thank them for that.
    I'd like to try to paraphrase for Ms Lily Flower then , if you don't mind.

    You have responsibilities in life. Whether you want to prioritize them or not is irrelevant.
    If you take on a responsibility you own it. Imagine if your boss said "yeah I know I owe you a salary every 2 weeks, But you know what? It's just not that high on my priority list to make sure you get paid on time so I spent the payroll on buying my new yacht so you might have to wait"
    Being in a relationship isn't just companionship, You guys are sharing the responsibilities of life.
    If one partner feels they are carrying the burden of responsibility more than the other and they do not wish to have that role all to themselves, in most cases feelings of resentment are likely to be born. Once resentment is allowed to grow , the relationship is doomed.

    Being in a relationship is also a responsibility, especially if you cohabit.
    Your responsibilities should take priority over your ideals.
    If they don't , then sadly you need to grow up.

    Your partner is not "worrying" so much as she is making a plea to you.
    Can you hear her??
    Do you think your sense of entitlement should come first?

  7. #17
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    ^ I think you guys are misunderstanding him. What I get from what he said, is NOT that he does not take responsibility for practical matters like paying the rent on time. He works & makes sure he has money to take care of basic needs when they need to be taken care of. What he's saying is, there is no need to worry unnecessarily about something like rent if you have already taken measures to ensure you will have it when the time comes. His gf may have valid concerns, but she may also be worrying about stuff that does not call for that level of stress. People who want to plan really far ahead can be suffocating, as they invent possible obstacles that may not ever exist. Why put yourself through anxiety over something that is imagined? I think Ni people can be paranoid about the future sometimes.... I've done that to myself, admittedly (Ne comes up with all kinds of worst-case scenarios); it's better to reasonably prepare, but also take things as they come. That is being responsible, and it's more practical, because no one can really say what will come down the road, exactly.

    Also, an INFP is not likely to show a lot of concern, even if it is there. She may have to take his word for it that it is important to him, instead of seeking an emotinal reaction like her own. Why spend more time dwelling on a practical concern more than necessary anyway? Life becomes a mundane drudgery then.

    I think it's great he is looking to adjust to accommodate her, but INFPs are often in danger of over-accommodating & finding their own needs & view invalidated (which is what people are doing here). Resentment can grow on his end then.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ^ I think you guys are misunderstanding him. What I get from what he said, is NOT that he does not take responsibility for practical matters like paying the rent on time. He works & makes sure he has money to take care of basic needs when they need to be taken care of. What he's saying is, there is no need to worry unnecessarily about something like rent if you have already taken measures to ensure you will have it when the time comes. His gf may have valid concerns, but she may also be worrying about stuff that does not call for that level of stress. People who want to plan really far ahead can be suffocating, as they invent possible obstacles that may not ever exist. Why put yourself through anxiety over something that is imagined? I think Ni people can be paranoid about the future sometimes.... I've done that to myself, admittedly (Ne comes up with all kinds of worst-case scenarios); it's better to reasonably prepare, but also take things as they come. That is being responsible, and it's more practical, because no one can really say what will come down the road, exactly.

    Also, an INFP is not likely to show a lot of concern, even if it is there. She may have to take his word for it that it is important to him, instead of seeking an emotinal reaction like her own. Why spend more time dwelling on a practical concern more than necessary anyway? Life becomes a mundane drudgery then.

    I think it's great he is looking to adjust to accommodate her, but INFPs are often in danger of over-accommodating & finding their own needs & view invalidated (which is what people are doing here). Resentment can grow on his end then.
    I am not invalidating his needs at all. I am only presenting a different angle because this is what he asking for.
    I am being polite and asking questions not making statements. I do this because I am aware he is starting to feel a little under attack, and I do not wish to add to that.
    At the same time I think I am very aware of the dynamics of his relationship because it sounds like the one I have in my own head with P and J going at it non stop. Since he is presenting a More P stance to things, I am simply offering J.

    I Think any relationship is give and take. If she were to come on here and present her side of things, I might give completely different responses to her regarding the same issues and it might seem like I am not considering her side of things as I try to explain his side of things.

    I think it's great he is looking to adjust to accommodate her, but INFPs are often in danger of over-accommodating & finding their own needs & view invalidated
    This is also a great concern for XNFJs.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Also, an INFP is not likely to show a lot of concern, even if it is there. She may have to take his word for it that it is important to him, instead of seeking an emotinal reaction like her own. Why spend more time dwelling on a practical concern more than necessary anyway? Life becomes a mundane drudgery then.
    This is extremely accurate.

    It has got to the point now where I have said that I do not respond to worry in the same way. There is s strong belief that, if I am not showing my concern (by actively saying 'I'm worried' or by pacing up and down) it means I am not concerned. This is not the case. I just don't want everyone to know I'm worried because then everyone's behaviour changes because they think they're being sensitive to my needs. It'd be much better for things to carry on as normal and for me to deal with things in my own time. If I need to talk, I'll talk; most of the time, though, I don't feel like it.
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  10. #20
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    j types aren't going to be as centered in their own sense of personal relevancy. they're going to be more attuned to what the social reality says, what the details of the social reality make relevant, what organizing frames are important in a situation, etc. so we are gonna worry about those more so, in general. but it also has a lot to do with enneagram type and subtype.

    the banal that you point out, i mean, to me, it makes perfect sense. i feel like i am consumed by banal worries at times because i lose all sight of my own subjective reasoning center. under stress it becomes harder and harder for me to hear where i am and what is true for me because it gets drowned out by what is true for the social reality/world/cultural frames around me.

    recognizing that your insular kind of subjective center that you protect so dearly can be extremely grounding for us is great but it also has its costs is important to make both parties feel valued. because, just like you, being misunderstood sucks, and that's how it will feel. working to recover the threads that prompted the banality is an important endeavor for us because it's often a kind of blind spot, a charge we pick up and don't know what to do with but hide it. and when our intentions get lost in the shuffle, we can feel trapped and misrepresented. sometimes we need a little help deactivating some of these other frames and figuring out where we really are and what's really important to us. just like dom Ji types often need a bit of maneuvering and unlocking in order to open up to the world a bit and really engage with a wider range of possibilities than their judgment function has previously deemed valid.

    also, one of my best friend's growing up was an infp 9w1 so/sp. he's dating an infj so/sx /enfj so/sx (hard to tell) who does much the same of what you're doing. the conscientiousness of both parties definitely has a way different type of accountability, but it seems like a really promising relationship from what i've gathered.

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