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  1. #1
    Member stormyapril's Avatar
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    Default ENFP/INTJ=Perceptive Train wreck o' love?

    Since that other thread was so very, very long and covered so many topics, i thought I'd start another thread to inquire regarding how differences in the perceiving functions influence the ENFP/INTJ combination (including INFP/ENTJs since they also share the same perceiving function difference.)

    We can of course talk about other things as well.

    These were my first thoughts....


    The INTJ-ENFP match works out well mostly!! (I love my INTJ so much) Perhaps the ISTJ:ENFP match might be even easier but would lack the abstract intuitive conversations.

    The Te/Fi bridge simplifies communication and value judgment. There may not always be agreement, but the shared language and frame prevents confusion during discussion of the disagreement.

    The biggest challenge is the Ni:Si difference. The ENFP's Si locks the INTJ into one, isolated, overly detailed Ni context, trapping them, leaving them feeling as though the Ne dom thinks they are always right. The INTJ keeps trying to displace core Si generalized rules with changing Ni contexts, thus giving the impression of ignoring previously agreed upon definitions or well understood Ne patterns. This leaves the Ne dom with no set Si foundation from which to Ne expand upon and perceiving the Ni dom as being dismissive.

    On the positive side, the Ni Dom can pass new universal Ni truths which can replace old Si generalized truths, yielding whole new Ne playgrounds to explore. The Ne dom can pass the Ni dom Ne-isms which morph into new Ni contexts to view the problem through.

    Word has it that the honesty, integrity, innocence, the direct, straightforward, open communication, the touching and holding, the commitment, the simultaneous ownership of responsibility and individual emotions, all make up for the perceptional differences.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Member stormyapril's Avatar
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    Slightly more detail:
    Before getting in a relationship with an INTJ, I assumed it would be fairly trouble free based upon interactions I had in the past with INTJ friends. It retrospect that was premature. I was in a LTR with an ISTP for 8 years, so I had already learned how to give an introvert time and space alone and how to be less sensitive to intentional or unintentional sarcasm or logical critique. I/E vs T/F diffs had been worked through and learned, so these were not an issue.

    The Te and Fi make things really simple (as compared to trying to date an Fe/Ti person). It drastically simplifies emotional and logical communication with no misunderstandings about motive or intent arising. Of course the same can be said for two XNTJs dating as well.

    Emotional communication is actually very simple and easy. It just flows. I suspect we bring out the innocent child inside of INTJs because we just dump Fi at them via Ne.

    It can become harder when trying to have logical Te discussions, especially if the subject is one in which you both have a very strong interest and knowledge base due to the diffs in N and S.

    Things I have had to learn:
    1. Give the INTJ space to use Ni without Ne jumping off topic. This means being quiet at times and following the Ni.

    2. Give the INTJ space to use Ni, even if it conflicts with my Si-hardbound version of the idea. This can be really hard on topics I am very well versed in. Learning about Ni context shifting was very valuable, as it first it seemed like all of my past knowledge had been disregarded in one swoop. It kind of was, but just for the time being...

    3. The INTJ likes to go out and do physical activities-Se. I like to stay home and read-Si. Because I love him, I try and do the things that he enjoys, even if they wouldnt be my first choice in hobbies.

    4. I have to detach emotionally from my ideas and recognize that discussions are not arguments. This is a bit tricky but doable. It can feel very stressful trying to debate an INTJ, as you guys can appear angstful or demanding on the surface which I will read as frustration or anger. I also have to ignore how VERY dismissive Te can sound on the surface, as even when you guys brainstorm, you are still being highly assertive via Te quality assurance tactics.

    These are a few areas of learned growth, but because NeFi is innately like a chameleon, once we understand how to adapt, it isnt very hard to do so.

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    Similar threads: "What does an ENFP love to hear?"

    I'm going to guess the answer is NOT that an INTJ match would be a train wreck...that's probably the last thing an ENFP wants to hear...

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    These were all phenomenal:

    Quote Originally Posted by stormyapril
    1. Give the INTJ space to use Ni without Ne jumping off topic. This means being quiet at times and following the Ni.


    Realize, we have to learn to do this with you guys, too.

    Like everything in a relationship, it's a back-and-forth.

    Each side needs to learn to let the other side do things its way sometimes.

    Wisdom lies is in knowing when those times are.

    Quote Originally Posted by stormyapril
    2. Give the INTJ space to use Ni, even if it conflicts with my Si-hardbound version of the idea. This can be really hard on topics I am very well versed in. Learning about Ni context shifting was very valuable, as it first it seemed like all of my past knowledge had been disregarded in one swoop. It kind of was, but just for the time being...
    The bolded is especially awesome.

    I'm glad you've realized that.

    It really is about disregarding one context, but only for the moment, so that, exploring how the matter looks from the other context, we may then zoom out, incorporating both (or perhaps more!) contexts into our overall understanding of the matter. In order to do this, though, at least from our view, we must relinquish one context completely (albeit temporarily) in order to fully dive into and appreciate another context.

    Question: how do you think the fact that the INTJ's Ni is in the dominant, while your Si is in the inferior, contributes to this dynamic? I ask because your construction seems to not put much emphasis on the preferential placement of these functions, so I'm wondering how the dynamic would be different between an INTJ and, let's say, an Si dom, aux, or tert???

    Quote Originally Posted by stormyapril
    3. The INTJ likes to go out and do physical activities-Se. I like to stay home and read-Si. Because I love him, I try and do the things that he enjoys, even if they wouldnt be my first choice in hobbies.
    Well, I'm sure your Ne likes to go out and do stuff too, and I'm sure his Ni has no problem snuggling up on a couch with a book/laptop...

    Question, though: do you think your Ne likes to go outside and explore mental worlds, but not necessarily physical ones? Is that part of the issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by stormyapril
    4. I have to detach emotionally from my ideas and recognize that discussions are not arguments. This is a bit tricky but doable. It can feel very stressful trying to debate an INTJ, as you guys can appear angstful or demanding on the surface which I will read as frustration or anger. I also have to ignore how VERY dismissive Te can sound on the surface, as even when you guys brainstorm, you are still being highly assertive via Te quality assurance tactics.
    Ew, this one is BIG.

    This one is REALLY, REALLY BIG.

    This one is very, very hard to get over...

    While ENFPs may have tert Te, it seems the effect of a Te "bulldozing" from a xxTJ first hits their Fi like a hotwire, and makes them get pissed off and emotional. For the INTJ, while they might get "emotional" about the topic, for them, it is not nearly as bigga deal as it is for the ENFP. The ENFP does not take well to the bulldozing of her ideas, not like, let's say, an INTJ would be used to when he is debating with another xxTJ.

    This causes problems, because the ENFP will come back with a Te attack, but it will be much more inspired by Fi anger/rage than would a xxTJ's response.

    This then causes the INTJ to be like

    Furthermore, the ENFP doesn't want to back down, after all, she's the Champion, and she damn well feels right at this moment (Fi!), and the INTJ, well, he feels that his argument (Te) is undoubtedly beating hers, but that she's just getting all emotional (Fi).

    Rinse, and repeat.

    After doing this enough times, hopefully the ENFP and INTJ come to an understanding of what is happening when this all goes down, and learn to recognize the pattern early on, when it is just beginning, so that they may either engage in calmer, more rational discourse where feelings won't get hurt, or figure out that sometimes it's better to just let the issue go...

    Neither side feels great about either of these options, but they're better than fighting.

    Or are they...?

    Make-up sex can be phenomenal...

    So maybe each side should learn to play with this pent-up aggression...

    To exercise it constructively, one might say...



    Quote Originally Posted by stormyapril
    These are a few areas of learned growth, but because NeFi is innately like a chameleon, once we understand how to adapt, it isnt very hard to do so.
    I have been rather pleased with mine's willingness to try and work on the relationship.

    Much better, I believe, than what you'd see in INTJ-ESFP and ENFP-ISTJ relationships...


  5. #5
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    Question: how do you think the fact that the INTJ's Ni is in the dominant, while your Si is in the inferior, contributes to this dynamic? I ask because your construction seems to not put much emphasis on the preferential placement of these functions, so I'm wondering how the dynamic would be different between an INTJ and, let's say, an Si dom, aux, or tert???
    well, that probably is part of why it's so annoying to us, really. we have a poor grasp on introverted Perceiving as a whole. to flip to the other parallel, i understand Se better than Si because Se seems to function pretty similar to Ne. it's touch-and-go. boing-boing-boing, instead of more... i dunno, like a well to dive into or something. maybe that's a crappy analogy, but what i mean, is Ne and Se are similar in their "how", even though they're different in the "what". Ne and Ni are similar in the "what" but not "how". which i think accounts for some of the reason ENFP/INTJ share some really awesome moments of mutual understanding... and some amazingly shitty moments of mutual fail at understanding. i think Fi picks up on that difference in processing, and makes the ENFP question how you arrived at your answer, especially if it comes out as distasteful. and then we figure out that you're not relying on Si for internal data... and that's rather disconcerting...

    but i think that a Si dom/aux/tert might find it easier to understand - or, at least, tolerate - Ni because they could see it the same way in which i see Se. it might read things differently, but its process, at least, is somewhat familiar.

    Furthermore, the ENFP doesn't want to back down, after all, she's the Champion, and she damn well feels right at this moment (Fi!), and the INTJ, well, he feels that his argument (Te) is undoubtedly beating hers, but that she's just getting all emotional (Fi).
    yup. and that just pisses the ENFP off even more, because she knows her argument has reasonable (not logical, but reasonable) grounds, and the INTJ appears to be dismissing them and failing to see what is actually important in life. nice picking up on that connotation of "champion".... we can certainly be hard-headed fighters...

    i haven't tried INTJ and ISTJ out for comparison purposes. though i'll take applications...

  6. #6
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Hmmm..the first thing my INTJ actually taught me was how to argue.
    He was the first not to get emotional and start yelling back at me when I got that way, and at first it pissed me off further (how can he not care!!!), to then make me run out of steam coz he was just....standing there, waiting for me to be done screaming already (almost like watching the clock). As pissed as that makes me, if you have nothing to fight it kinda..implodes. Especially when he'd then make some dry ass comment which made me giggle, it kinda just kills your anger. He also learned from it though, coz I have a tendency to scream out all the reasons why I'm pissed as well in a desperate attempt to communicate the misunderstanding I'm perceiving. He's the only one who looks through the emotional shit and actually catches that shit and does something with it.

    Vice versa, I *know* him to not want to hurt me. I know him well enough to know that while he might be blunt, and while he might hurt me, it is never his intention. So, when he accidentily does, I pull back, as you would when touching the stove, but I don't run out of the room, I'll go back and check why that stove was hot in the first place. I'll ignore the personal injury to see his argument and why he ended up hurting me in the process. Once I understand, the burn automatically heals.

    He taught me that arguing doesn't have to ruin a relationship or bond with someone, coz he doesn't hold it against me when I get that way. He rather see me point it at someone else so he can watch the show, but he manages to stand his ground when I do point it at him, and tries to go along with what I'm trying to say, as he wants to fix it. Now. I very much appreciate that. We also don't go to bed till it is fixed. And I very much appreciate that, otherwise I wouldn't sleep. He'll try to find the trigger that set me off, and I'll try to see the logic he's so desperately trying to impart on me and the vision he has, so I understand him as a person better(which is alwasy an inner drive with me), and so he can get on with his 'mission' (be that sharing something with me, doing something, planning something, or whatever).

    Cuddling and aftercare are definitely a must afterwards, which can lead to some very tender TLC
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    Okay, fine Satine.

    I admit that the ENFP/INTJ relationship has the potential to work if:

    • The INTJ remembers that when the ENFP runs away she sometimes wants chased
    • The INTJ learns to let the ENFP vent without interrupting then helps them sort through their thoughts
    • The ENFP realises the INTJ must retreat to organise their thoughts and can't do so instantaneously
    • The ENFP allows the INTJ sufficient space to develop their hobbies while introverting.

  8. #8
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Lol...see, i think you *wanna* be convinced. I wasn't even posting here with you in mind

    However, you are right. Those are prerequisites. And I'll stress that one of the harder things to learn as an ENFP is to give them that space to figure it out, even when it drives us up the wall. BUT it is soooo frigging necessary to learn how to do that, when dating an INTJ, it's how they are, and you gotto love em that way. It's just that since we do our thinking out loud, we naturally presume they'll think along with us. And as long as we just need to have a sounding board, it works. Aka, to figure things out for the ENFP. The second however you ask them 'so how do you feel about this?' and they haven't given this any thought before...well you might as well go

    For real. It's frustrating, it's infuriating, it makes no sense (to us!) but you have *got* to let them figure it out. The worst part is that I'm going mad with curiosity and he's just sitting there going 'I don't know', if I get a response at all. So then I naturally start asking him questions that would help him come to that answer, and you hit the same snag with those questions! And then when you finally give up all exasperated, you forget about the matter (as our memories suck). However, at some point that same discussion gets triggered and you go through exactly *the same* process coz..well you forgot about it, but so did they!!!! Their memory is worse, so once you get out of that discussion, they'll forget about it and won't even get back to you with the answer. It's maddening!

    So what I do is (and I truly hate doing this but hey), if it's important enough, I'lll remind/nag him about it once a day. And at some point I'm able to extract some sort of answer. I've also found that if you get them some sort of writing medium (me and my So are doing the LDR thing rigtht now and we have a website where we post and keep in touch with one another, his idea and I *LOVE* it), they start organizing that writing medium and in the process you get to see how they feel about things. Coz that thign has reminders, has structure and reminds them that they're supposed to give you an answer on that question

    Seriously, you people are impossible to extract info out of though when you haven't figured something out yet. Frigging turtles unwilling to come out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Lol...see, i think you *wanna* be convinced. I wasn't even posting here with you in mind
    I note that we have talked through the above a few times in the past week, so I thought it appropriate to present my conclusions on that basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I note that we have talked through the above a few times in the past week, so I thought it appropriate to present my conclusions on that basis.
    *prods Jim*
    You're right, but I swear that I'm answering in general, on my experience here
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