[INFP] The World vs INFP

[JoSunshine]

I don't know really.

It seems to me that INFPs have the qualities people say they value and want to be around but in reality most find those qualities rather dull, if not unsexy. I also think part of the problem is just how much we hold back; it takes work to relate to us, whereas ENFPs are instantly charming. And people often equate our serene demeanour with dullness and lack of personality, which leads them to dismiss us entirely out of hand.

I agree with this. My SO is an INFP and I adore him and instantly found him intruging...I wanted to know more. On the other hand, I find people who are socially appropraite, charming and who always know just the right right thing to say, well...dull. As a matter-of-fact the night that I met him my friend was trying to set me up with his friend (possible ENFP or something similar), but I liked my sweet INFP He told me I'm probably the only person on the face of the earth who would have picked him over his charming friend However, I suspect this is the exception. Most of my friends don't know what to make of him. I tell them they need to get to know him. They say, "How do you get to know someone who won't talk?" I guess they have a point

He is selective about who he talks to (sometimes just becuase he's not comfortable) but is wildly interesting when he does really talk. I think that he sometimes feels like he doesn't fit in or that people don't like him. In my observation, it's not that...people just don't know him becuase he keeps his thoughts largely to himself.

 

[nolla]

He is selective about who he talks to (sometimes just becuase he's not comfortable) but is wildly interesting when he does really talk. I think that he sometimes feels like he doesn't fit in or that people don't like him.

I do that too, but it's not really anything to take personally. With many people I just don't seem to have anything to talk about. Not that I wouldn't like to talk with someone, it's just that I don't see anything I could talk about. It's hard to describe. With some type of people I can chatter about mundane things indefinitely, but with some other type it's like no matter how interesting the subject is, there is something missing in the dynamics...

 

[Southern Kross]

On the flip side, ENFPs aren't taken seriously in their natural state.

Yeah I was just thinking this in relation to what nolla said. ENFPs can get the frivolous airhead treatment. Its certainly not all rosy to be an ENFP, but it sure seems like it sometimes

 

[Rebe]

^ i met this enfp at work, she's a customer and my first impression of her was extremely giddy, naive, very energetic, hyper, cute, GIDDY, charming in a slightly socially oblivion way. i immediately typed her as enfp because she's spacey and the way she talks is really full of bubbles and energy. she's like the ultimate enfp. her energy put me off in the beginning but i spoke with her a few times and she's really intelligent and together. she's the manager of human resources at a pretty good size company and she's studying for law school. ultimate enfp. giddy and spacey on the outside, lawyer-to-be on the inside.

 

[skylights]

first of all, i understand the perception. that sucks.

but. being an ENFP isn't all rainbows and unicorn farts, really.

sure, people seem to enjoy you, but not without a whole lot of self-consciousness on your part. then you want everything so you can never really be happy with anything for long; you can get a job but don't want to keep it; and yeah, people like interacting with you, but the relationship always ends up being about them, on their terms. ENFPs are chameleons, we blend to match our environments. and sometimes that means... we have no identity. sometimes i feel like, looking at my resume, i don't exist. i'm everything all at once, and paradoxically, therefore... i am nothing.

be grateful you're a panda. at least you have your self, and that self is interesting and worthwhile enough to merit closer inspection. rather than the dog, who, despite everything she may be, is forever to be defined primarily by her master. and to go against that external definition is to rebel against who i really am. ENFPs cannot be themselves.*



my point being - we've all got problems. we can't see each others' because we're looking through our own perspective. yeah, life is hard as an NF. life is hard as an NFP. i'm sure life is hard as an INFP. but you know, if it's not one thing, it's another. i might be an ENFP and that might be hard but at least i was raised in a family that loves and supports me. where's that poster i like...

it's my go-to when i'm having a one-woman pity party. feel free to borrow it.


*okay, so may be slightly over-dramatized for the sake of argument ;]

 

[OrangeAppled]

^ I see what you're saying, but I know that for me, when I am down, such messages are patronizing. They do not comfort me, toughen me up, or wake me up. They just reinforce the feeling of being misunderstood. Everything in that poster is PHYSICAL. It has nothing to do with connecting to other human beings.

Also, problems are relative. There are things I am used to that people of a higher socio-economic class would struggle to deal with, and things I've struggled to deal with as it was not "normal" to my life & culture. It's not comforting in that moment to know someone else has even less. Sometimes in retrospect it helps to put your life in context of the world, but in that moment, no, it just seems dismissive. When you get into the non-physical realms, it really becomes hard to say who has it worse & who really deserves sympathy (and is it a competition?).

 

[William K]

I guess it depends on how the message is delivered. Something like "Stop complaining. You're so much luckier than X% of the world population" would certainly set my hackles up.
It can also seem like a way of consoling myself or making an excuse not to try and improve myself. "It's ok that I only finished 100th in the marathon. At least I'm faster than the other 900 participants" kind of thing.
It's a fine balance between being content and grateful with what you have, and striving to achieve your ideals. I am very much internally driven, and if I get into the habit of settling for being who I am, I'd just procrastinate the whole day away

 

[skylights]

@ OA -

i wrote out this huge manifesto to you, but i think it was too much. i have boiled it down to these 5 points.

basically:

• my intention is not, and was not, and will never be, to dismiss anyone's suffering. my objective is to knock down the idea that "The World vs INFP" perspective is the ultimate reality.
  
  
• i don't dismiss that INFPs suffer. at all. what i do reject is the idea that INFPs suffer more than anyone else. it's also insulting to be told that i don't suffer as much as an ENFP as INFPs do. to be told that i'm commonplace and INFPs are special. who is the INFP to decide that?
  
  
• i like that poster because it reminds me of how many things i have to be grateful for that often seem "invisible" otherwise. not because it shows how much better off i have it than others. not because it adds more suffering to the pile. i'm sorry you don't like it, but i was just offering it as a tool for anyone who may also like it, because it's helpful to me when i am feeling like the world is against me.
  
  
• pointing out others' suffering, including my own as a non-INFP, was, instead, for the sake of demonstrating that the feelings of the rest of the world are missing from "The World vs INFP" hypothesis. i assert that anyone who feels this way decided it for themselves. it is reality only in a personal world. between you and i, it ceases to be true, because i will always be on your side if only because everyone deserves sympathy and support and love. that the world is against INFPs is not an ultimate reality. it may feel like a personal reality, but you have the power to change that personal reality. that's what i'm trying to get at with the poster. it helps me look at things in a different light.
  
  
• maybe that seems like i don't really care, but the truth is, i care a lot. still, i'm not going to support anyone who believes reality is "The World vs INFP", in particular because i am special too and i have deep sufferings too, and to support the idea of The World vs INFP would be to reject the truth of my own individuality and pain. being a Fi dom may mean you have the most mastery over the subjective internal realm, and that you feel emotions in a deeper and more nuanced way than everyone else, but it does not make your pain any more real than anyone else's. and the fact that INFPs feel deeply does not make the rest of our suffering any lesser in comparison. it is only "The World vs INFP" if you happen to be an INFP. otherwise it is "The World vs ENFP", or "The World vs Women", or "The World vs [any other group you identify with]". essentially, it is always going to be "The World vs Me", because you are limited to your own perspective, and it injurious to both oneself and others to mistake that perspective - that personal reality - for reality in the external world.

that's all that i wanted to get at. it wasn't meant to be hurtful or dismissive. i do apologize that it came off that way. it was, however, meant to knock down the pedestal implied in the thread title. i'll always support an underdog, but the person claiming to suffer more than anyone else isn't one by virtue of that very claim. it's a very strange crown that person wears, but it is a crown nonetheless. and, moreover, i don't think this has much to do with being an INFP. it sounds a whole lot more like e4.

so as an answer to the OP, once and for all, i cast my vote and present my evidence that it is not The World vs INFP - and voice my opinion that whether it is or not has absolutely no bearing on the depth or significance of your suffering.

 

[Thalassa]

ENFPs are chameleons, we blend to match our environments. and sometimes that means... we have no identity. sometimes i feel like, looking at my resume, i don't exist. i'm everything all at once, and paradoxically, therefore... i am nothing.

be grateful you're a panda. at least you have your self, and that self is interesting and worthwhile enough to merit closer inspection. rather than the dog, who, despite everything she may be, is forever to be defined primarily by her master. and to go against that external definition is to rebel against who i really am. ENFPs cannot be themselves.*

I think this is true. It can be painful to always need other people, to be seeking external confirmation, external approval, and yes there's a self-consciousness that goes along with it. I think things like this is why I always come back to enfp as my type, because I relate to this particular weakness so much.

it's my go-to when i'm having a one-woman pity party. feel free to borrow it.


*okay, so may be slightly over-dramatized for the sake of argument ;]

I like your poster.

 

[William K]

Somehow I'm reminded of this post in another "Woe is me"-type INFP Thread
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21652&p=826457&viewfull=1#post826457

Edit : That whole thread is actually a quite interesting read. OA has several good posts.

 

[Rebe]

I love your poster, skylights.

 

[Thalassa]

I'd also like to add here, after further reflection, that some people also don't appreciate how OUTWARDLY emo or even dramatic ENFPs can be, and if we're dogs, well...some people are annoyed by dogs, they need too much attention.

I'm not trying to be glib or offensive, I'm just pointing out that ENFPs get flak too. I'm sure every type does for some reason.

 

[Southern Kross]

I like the poster too Skylights - I've seen it around on the internet before. Its one of the few motivational posters I actually like. Usually when I read them I want to vomit or throw things in rage

^ I see what you're saying, but I know that for me, when I am down, such messages are patronizing. They do not comfort me, toughen me up, or wake me up. They just reinforce the feeling of being misunderstood. Everything in that poster is PHYSICAL. It has nothing to do with connecting to other human beings.

Also, problems are relative. There are things I am used to that people of a higher socio-economic class would struggle to deal with, and things I've struggled to deal with as it was not "normal" to my life & culture. It's not comforting in that moment to know someone else has even less. Sometimes in retrospect it helps to put your life in context of the world, but in that moment, no, it just seems dismissive. When you get into the non-physical realms, it really becomes hard to say who has it worse & who really deserves sympathy (and is it a competition?).

Oh I'm so with you.

I find most motivational messages galling and infuriating. They're cloying and insultingly oversimplifying of what are complex emotional issues that aren't necessarily in my power to easily change. The thing is I am genuinely committed to thinking more positively and motivating myself already (despite how hard things can be) but this does only so much to change my mood. Its like being on a hard-core exercise regime yet being unable to lose any significant weight then having someone tell me I need to exercise more.

But then I find most attempts to (as you said, OrangeAppled) comfort me, toughen me up, or wake me up are rather misguided and insulting. I don't know if there is something wrong with me; this stuff just doesn't work on me at all - in fact, it often has the opposite effect.

However this (anti-)motivational message always cheers me up:

Remember, when you're having a bad day and people are winding you up, it takes 42 muscles to frown, 28 to smile and only 4 to extend your arm and smack them in face

I feel better already

 

[OrangeAppled]

Skylights, I understand your perspective, and do not disagree with the main points. I was simply pointing out that the technique used to make your point is often not very successful with an INFP. Obviously, some here liked it, but often such a message makes me dig my heels in, and I've heard other INFPs express the same sentiment.

I also find that it's fighting negativity with negativity, and it's kind of irrelevant to the real emotional issue. Instead of pointing out that others have it worse, it helps if someone points out the INFP's personal strengths. My "wealth" in life has nothing to do with me personally, and everything to do with the circumstances I was born into. It's not any reflection of my value as a human. The OP feels, essentially, worthless. If anything, his worthlessness may make him feel he deserves such wealth less than the 75% of the world in poverty. The real issue then, is making him aware of his worth, without having to compare him to someone else (ie. ENFPs, or whoever).

INFPs certainly don't have it worse than anyone else by default of their personality (and I think I said as much to the OP in another thread), but our strengths often aren't measured as other people's strengths are. It's the INFPs responsibility to learn how to communicate their strengths to the world, but it helps when others express their confidence in our ability to do it.

Somehow I'm reminded of this post in another "Woe is me"-type INFP Thread
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21652&p=826457&viewfull=1#post826457

Edit : That whole thread is actually a quite interesting read. OA has several good posts.

That post by saxman is like gold...what happened to that dude?

I find most motivational messages galling and infuriating. They're cloying and insultingly oversimplifying of what are complex emotional issues that aren't necessarily in my power to easily change. The thing is I am genuinely committed to thinking more positively and motivating myself already (despite how hard things can be) but this does only so much to change my mood. Its like being on a hard-core exercise regime yet being unable to lose any significant weight then having someone tell me I need to exercise more.

But then I find most attempts to (as you said, OrangeAppled) comfort me, toughen me up, or wake me up are rather misguided and insulting. I don't know if there is something wrong with me; this stuff just doesn't work on me at all - in fact, it often has the opposite effect.

However this (anti-)motivational message always cheers me up:

Remember, when you're having a bad day and people are winding you up, it takes 42 muscles to frown, 28 to smile and only 4 to extend your arm and smack them in face

I feel better already

I think the wryness of that "anti-motivational" message works for some INFPs because 1) it sympathizes with their feeling instead of invalidating their feelings, but it also 2) puts the feeling in perspective. It shows the feeling is a bit ridiculous and dramatic, but not necessarily without any valid cause. It's a bit negative also, but the humor adds a "lightness" that can lead to positive thinking.

I love Morrissey for that reason. In his lyrics, he mocks his own mawkishness; there is an intentional humor to it. It feels like he is sympathizing with every "weak" human emotion, yet shining light on how over-dramatic these feelings can be & the self-absorption they stem from. That makes me smile; that puts my problems in perspective. A dead baby joke might work just as well .

Example:

Park the car at the side of the road
You should know
Time's tide will smother you
And I will too
When you laugh about people
who feel so very lonely
Their only desire is to die
Well, I'm afraid
It doesn't make me smile
I wish I could laugh

But that joke isn't funny anymore
It's too close to home
And it's too near the bone
It's too close to home
And it's too near the bone
More than you'll ever know ...

Kick them when they fall down
Kick them when they fall down
You kick them when they fall down

It was dark as I drove the point home
And on cold leather seats
Well, it suddenly struck me
I just might die with a smile on my face after all

I've seen this happen in other people's lives
And now it's happening in mine...

 

[skylights]

^ you've said it twice now, but i really don't think you do get what i'm saying. i feel like you've essentially patted me on the head, said that's nice, and told me to run along and play while you use me as an example to the class of how not to cheer up the INFP because my "tactic" was to use something superficial.

oh well. god forbid an extravert have anything but superficiality to lend to the conversation. :rolli:

 

[William K]

skylights, I apologize if it seems like we are belittling your efforts in trying to help the OP. Words typed in an Internet forum loses context and sound harsher than they really are. As others have already mentioned, your poster is much appreciated and I'd gladly use it as a motivation tool. In this rat-race of a world we live in, we need to be reminded from time to time how fortunate we are to have what we have.

However, in the case of the OP where he is questioning his self-worth and is in a downward mood, this type of advice may not be the best at this moment of time. In my personal experience, instead of hearing "You are not worthless. You have more than many others", it will sound like "You may be bad, but there are others that are worse than you".

To relate back to the panda/dog analogy, instead of saying "Dogs have their problems too", whilst true, perhaps a better response would be "Pandas have their strong points too. They're the symbol of the WWF! And everyone loves pandas!" Though that might not work for San Francisco Giants fans now I guess

 

[Biaxident]

The post title is backward, it should be, INFP vs The World.

 

[William K]

I thought the OP meant something like this

 

[Synapse]

I could write why positives and negatives influence the way we think in a subconscious and then a conscious way however that would over complicate this. What I do want to say is that if we focus on specific false premises they become our manifestations in this reality. That is to say we start believing them and finding supporting proof that they exist through the eyes of others. And what that means is that we are assigning labels, labels upon our very essence and others and discriminating subtly in everything that happens like a subtle energy spike.

This means it takes enormous energy to counteract our counter intuitive behaviour in the present reality that we find ourselves in and this deepens. Because we are constantly, in a hypnotic way, exposed to this kind of learning as the acceptable norm against the back drop of our own INFP sensibility. What that means is we adapt towards these other avenues and make them part of our identity. Which means we are transforming our essence and giving away our affirmations and assertions towards energies that undo who we are.

And in that coping we adapt different sets of behviours, humours and boundaries. Which are in essence false premises because again they aren't really our own, we just think they are. After all who so ever learns of themselves knows themselves only when they have learned what they don't know of themselves. And what we don't know is that we are limited only by our lack of imagination and then we are the least likely personalities to be.

We are neither any high maintenance nor any low maintenance then what our beliefs think we are. It is truly from within that when we stop trusting within we stop trusting without and when we stop trusting we become further disenchanted and believe that because the world is designed to function entirely away from the functionality of who we are then we are expressing in a down regulated way and our body affects our thoughts then.

Our confusion starts expressing in the way our mind, body, spirit connects with our will. Who knows I rambled again.

 

[Adasta]

I just wanted to add this since it may provide some insight:

Example: When I lost my job & my savings drained away quickly, my mom didn't say "Orangeappled, you shouldn't feel bad because everyone is losing their job right now. You just need to start looking for another job and keep a positive attitude." A lot of people would say that....however, my mom knows me. So instead, my mom said, "Orangeappled, in the long run, it's only money, and money and credit can always be re-earned. You have your family to support you, and you will find another job eventually because you are smart and talented." That put things into perspective & gave me encouragement without telling me my feelings were wrong or telling me to do the obvious.

I completely echo OrangeAppled in what she says. The world seems ridiculous a lot of the time because it is appears so microcosmic that everyone ignores the macrocosm. I just want to add that, while I wouldn't really identify myself as a Christian, these verses always seem able to sum up my view of things in life, or of life itself:

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

As I say, I find the notion of the Logos or the Monad/Henosis to be more appealing than the Christian term "God", but I think the sentiment still stands. I think the American phrase "don't sweat the small stuff" would be a fairly accurate reduction of this notion.

Like it or not, we are the paladins of the world. We are those that fight doggedly for the causes of good and we pay the price. We are unflinching and therefore unmaleable and unassimilable. We appear arrogant and aloof because our outlook is not only an opinion but the way in which we live our life. We look down on those who have not chosen/are still deciding/do not think that having an outlook is beneficial in life however much we try not to act that way. We're difficult to get to know because we are aware that we're interesting and feel that we warrent the attention of others even if we don't seek it. People are at times jealous, and at other times infuriated, of our ability to treat those things which cause problems in others' lives - bills, money, status, etc. - with such utter disdain as to render them almost worthless. We take things to heart and are therefore maudlin and ebullient in equal measure, but never consistently.

As Menenius says while describing Coriolanus in Coriolanus:

His nature is too noble for the world:
He would not flatter Neptune for his trident,
Or Jove for's power to thunder. His heart's his mouth:
What his breast forges, that his tongue must vent;
And, being angry, does forget that ever
He heard the name of death